10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[ellieg]

I'd be fine with that if they also added a mechanism (maybe a "use" option with a confirmation box) to manually downgrade keys. In my community, we have three groups of people doing M+: those pushing 18s at this point with the goal of getting the 20s on time, those wanting 15s for their vault loot, and those running 7's during the Mythic weekly event for their heroic raid loot. Sometimes only the first group has a key to offer, so we intentionally drop the key level to make it more competitive for the lower group. I wouldn't want someone inadvertently getting stuck with a key that they simply had no hope of finishing.

They have this. Tahsup, broker npc standing to the right of the Great vault. You can have him manually downgrade your key.

[chiddie]

Why dont u just complete keys ur able to do?

If u cant beat the timer, it means ur not geared and/or good enough.

There is always M0, LFR and WQs if ur after easy content

Problem is that M+ is not a single player content. A key failing has rarely only one culprit.

I know myself very well because I healed all throughout S1 in PUG only up to almost KSM and I’ve seen almost all the different situations.

[Relapses]

I don't see anything wrong with this idea. Also stops the (seemingly massive) problem of people leaving group finder keys after a bad pull or two.

People will hold keys hostage. They'll see it's going wrong but will refuse to leave, forcing you to either 4-man the key or disband and try again. The depletion factor has to be there to help offset this kind of toxic behavior.

[Eli85]

They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

This statement, right here, doesn't even have a shred of truth to it. Mythic Plus is the most casually accessible end game system that WoW has to offer, and it is the furthest thing from incredibly complex. The entire system is just literally taking simple dungeon mechanics and adding difficulty via scaling and affixes, none of which independently, or taken in conjunction, become complex. Furthermore, it is a system that drives people to keep subscribing, not quitting, as it provides a [near] endless source of end game.

Also the timer needs to stay. People really need to get off the whole "TIMER BAD GUYS." It's just an irrational fixation at this point.

[ellieg]

[B]
Problem is that M+ is not a single player content. A key failing has rarely only one culprit.

I know myself very well because I healed all throughout S1 in PUG only up to almost KSM and I’ve seen almost all the different situations.

Idk about that tbh. Usually there's clearly 1 person bringing the rest down. Dps with 0 interrupts, dps doing tank lvl dps, healer not able to heal the unavoidable dmg or just barely able to heal it causing dps to have lower their own dps to mitigate it, tank pulling too slowly, healer straight up doing 0 dps. Can be many factors but usually in a failed key 15 and below its someone hard dragging the group down.

[rhorle]

Every player group is relevant.

Every player group is not relevant in every level of content. You aslo didn't ask me anything but made a statement. I don't see you advocating that Mythic Raids are able to be done by players that only play 2-3 times a month. That would be silly. There isn't a problem with the way things are designed with a basic level for everyone and a advance level for some.

The only thing that is lacking a real advance level is world content but I think it is fine if there isn't always such a thing. The occasional Mage Tower or Twisting Corridors in Torghast are good to fill that need for the "hardcore" that want "challenging" world/solo content. Blizzard just needs to change it up and get a seasonal aspect going to get it fresh.

[erifwodahs]

I'd be fine with that if they also added a mechanism (maybe a "use" option with a confirmation box) to manually downgrade keys. In my community, we have three groups of people doing M+: those pushing 18s at this point with the goal of getting the 20s on time, those wanting 15s for their vault loot, and those running 7's during the Mythic weekly event for their heroic raid loot. Sometimes only the first group has a key to offer, so we intentionally drop the key level to make it more competitive for the lower group. I wouldn't want someone inadvertently getting stuck with a key that they simply had no hope of finishing.

There is a option for that in Oribos, near vault

[Rubim]

Every player group is not relevant in every level of content. You aslo didn't ask me anything but made a statement. I don't see you advocating that Mythic Raids are able to be done by players that only play 2-3 times a month. That would be silly. There isn't a problem with the way things are designed with a basic level for everyone and a advance level for some.

The only thing that is lacking a real advance level is world content but I think it is fine if there isn't always such a thing. The occasional Mage Tower or Twisting Corridors in Torghast are good to fill that need for the "hardcore" that want "challenging" world/solo content. Blizzard just needs to change it up and get a seasonal aspect going to get it fresh.

I was going to say this.

Not all players groups are relevant to all player content.

There are contents made to hardcore players.

[chiddie]

Idk about that tbh. Usually there's clearly 1 person bringing the rest down. Dps with 0 interrupts, dps doing tank lvl dps, healer not able to heal the unavoidable dmg or just barely able to heal it causing dps to have lower their own dps to mitigate it, tank pulling too slowly, healer straight up doing 0 dps. Can be many factors but usually in a failed key 15 and below its someone hard dragging the group down.

The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.

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Every player group is not relevant in every level of content. You aslo didn't ask me anything but made a statement. I don't see you advocating that Mythic Raids are able to be done by players that only play 2-3 times a month. That would be silly. There isn't a problem with the way things are designed with a basic level for everyone and a advance level for some.

The only thing that is lacking a real advance level is world content but I think it is fine if there isn't always such a thing. The occasional Mage Tower or Twisting Corridors in Torghast are good to fill that need for the "hardcore" that want "challenging" world/solo content. Blizzard just needs to change it up and get a seasonal aspect going to get it fresh.

They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.

I won’t waste any of my precious spare time to do solo content with zero meaningful rewards. This is not Dark Souls where you do the challenge for the sole pleasure of the challenge itself.

[rhorle]

They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.

Allowing people to get Heroic raid gear from solo content would really screw up the game. Even now LFR is struggling to offer meaningful rewards for its target audience because you can out gear it with Cypher Research gear. Blizzard would need to change a lot about the core systems if it moves to a loot shower style of game. Which is essentially what it would become.

At most I could see a solo challenge counting towards the Great Vault assuming Blizzard continues that system for the next expansion (and the would be foolish not to).

[bullseyed]

Seeing how many people use the mission table at some point isn't the same as being able to see how many people do M+ weekly.

Also you get free exp boosts from increasing your renown so that doesn't mean much.

I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.

The proof on this is easy, just loot at classic/tbclassic or any expansion before badges/m+ existed when dungeons were dead after the first week.

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I'd be fine with that if they also added a mechanism (maybe a "use" option with a confirmation box) to manually downgrade keys. In my community, we have three groups of people doing M+: those pushing 18s at this point with the goal of getting the 20s on time, those wanting 15s for their vault loot, and those running 7's during the Mythic weekly event for their heroic raid loot. Sometimes only the first group has a key to offer, so we intentionally drop the key level to make it more competitive for the lower group. I wouldn't want someone inadvertently getting stuck with a key that they simply had no hope of finishing.

This has existed for quite a while. How many years ago did you quit playing?

[chiddie]

Allowing people to get Heroic raid gear from solo content would really screw up the game. Even now LFR is struggling to offer meaningful rewards for its target audience because you can out gear it with Cypher Research gear. Blizzard would need to change a lot about the core systems if it moves to a loot shower style of game. Which is essentially what it would become.

At most I could see a solo challenge counting towards the Great Vault assuming Blizzard continues that system for the next expansion (and the would be foolish not to).

The vault would not be a solution because it would be ONE piece per week, you can have duplicates and slots are 18. I understand WoW cannot be Diablo 3, but progression has also to have a certain pace, that can’t be one piece per week.

Please notice that I’m not talking about ilvl per se, people are too focused on that while the main issue about ow content is that the content dies after one-two months after a major patch and then you’re left 3-4 months with nothing else to do.

[bullseyed]

Also the timer needs to stay. People really need to get off the whole "TIMER BAD GUYS." It's just an irrational fixation at this point.

Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.

[chiddie]

Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.

Also, oddly enough, the only times I got 5 diamonds in Torghast were the ones where I completely didn’t care about the timer and wiped almost everything. So the game CAN reward something else but time if “it wants”.

[bullseyed]

The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.

If you're struggling that badly in PUGs, there's an 85% chance you're a big part of the issue.

I PUG'd KSM as SV in BFA for multiple seasons, for example, when SV was absolutely the worst spec in the game for M+. Got booted a few times for being SV, declined a lot, but who cares. It is absolutely easy to time 15s and 16s, while PUGing

[Eli85]

Eh. Timers are bad, but there is no better solution for dungeons. It can be both. There is nothing wrong with M+, no need to remove the timer, no easy or obvious changes to make. But they're also dumb and lead to a lot of dumb stuff. Most of that "dumb stuff" is the community choosing to be dumb and building tools to help the community be dumb.

There are a lot of routes that "everyone" uses that are absolutely slow/slower but are used because some streamer or MDI guy did it. It's faster for that level of player, but is batshit insane on a 15. That sort of thing. "We have to do the Wo-Ardenweld skip on this 15 DOS because timer" is dumb and wrong when on a 15 with below average DPS you can just straight pull Hakkar side with no skips and easily make the timer. In fact, doing those wo skips and other nonsense usually bricks keys (in 15/16 pugs). Even with 2700-2800 score players.

Without "the timer" people would be more willing to try straight pulling the dungeon and be like "oh, we 2 chested it because we didnt wipe 4 times on skips" instead of "we barely made 1 chest, I better do this Wo route even HARDER next time so we can get more time".

It isn't the timer's fault, but "timers are dumb" is still an acceptable explanation.

Timers aren't "bad". It's there to establish the times when you should be done to deserve 1, 2, or 3 chest. It's no different than enrages on boss, and I don't see anyone saying "enrages are dumb / bad."

As to the rest, people engaging in degenerate behaviour is a, hello, player problem. If the timer didn't exist, whatever mechanism in its place would create this degenerate behaviour, and the community would blame it on that.

[Lolites]

I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.

this always seemed such a weird argument to me, since almost everything in wow is gear driven... if raids stop giving gear you would see the participation drop to ground too...

[chiddie]

If you're struggling that badly in PUGs, there's an 85% chance you're a big part of the issue.

I PUG'd KSM as SV in BFA for multiple seasons, for example, when SV was absolutely the worst spec in the game for M+. Got booted a few times for being SV, declined a lot, but who cares. It is absolutely easy to time 15s and 16s, while PUGing

In S1 it was “less easy”. But apart from that, I was not struggling, main issue was at usual find or form groups.

Also, since pugs are pugs, it’s really difficult to tell for sure why the group is struggling. For my experience is usually dps not dpsing or dying to mechanics, probably for the dps is usually healer not healing and the tank usually blame everyone else.

But fail is not a problem… if after 3 minutes you can try again in another dungeon with other people. Unfortunately this is not the case in M+, that’s one of the reason I completely abandon them and I won’t EVER be back unless there’s an LFG automated option.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Timer probably should be like an affix once you hit a certain key level. So you can do to a +5 with no timer. Then it's a fairly loose timer but there to 10. Tightens up a bit around 15. Becomes hard af at 20. The numbers I am using here are just an example, but it works the timer into the challenge gradually over the course of pushing harder and instead of it just being a base line of the activity.

[rhorle]

Please notice that I’m not talking about ilvl per se, people are too focused on that while the main issue about ow content is that the content dies after one-two months after a major patch and then you’re left 3-4 months with nothing else to do.

You stated relevant rewards right? So that means item level progression. You can already get Mythic +8/9 end of dungeon item level from Cypher Research so if Blizzard had a solo/world challenge currently it would have to award higher then that. But if it doesn't progressively get better then it is a one time reward that will be quickly made irrelevant.

Why do you need more then one piece a week if you are never doing content that requires those pieces? If you get more then one a week you risk changing how all the group content is done much the same way M+ changed the importance of Raids for loot. Or you just add another item level gap required between content levels to set things apart.

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The difference you ignore is that high level players also have all the content low level players have.

Well, duh. If you do the highest level of content in game you have all the content available to you. If you do the lowest level of content in a game you won't have all the content available to you. That isn't a problem that needs fixing. Every player does not need access to every reward or item level. We've had this conversation before but you don't need to progress your character beyond the power you need for the content you do.

If you choose to only do X content you don't need anymore gear unless you want to go beyond that content to the next level. Considering you can get M+ 8/9 without being a top tier player it just shows that the game has gear progression beyond what you are stating. Why exaggerate something that just undermines whatever point you are trying to make?

If you aren't satisfied with "welfare" epics then do better content. Shocking, right? Don't demand the game allows you to play 2-3 times a month and have gear progression. Play more. Play the other content and progress your character.