10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Onikaroshi]

That's what low level keys are for. +2-5s are basically M0s now everyone has a base of 230+ iLvl.

Hell, i leveled a lock and have a 241 ilvl after 12 hours /played at 60

[Sinte]

The problem is that no one “wants” to be the culprit and it all ends in a mess of toxicity.

I basically passed from “godly healer” to “please delete your account” in a blink of a dungeon.

It’s really hard in pug to improve yourself because everyone thinks it’s some other’s issue.

M+ are not meant to be pugged, that’s basically why I completely stopped doing party content.

- - - Updated - - -


They are not good because they don’t provide any gear advancement.

I won’t waste any of my precious spare time to do solo content with zero meaningful rewards. This is not Dark Souls where you do the challenge for the sole pleasure of the challenge itself.

M+ is very easily pugable,from low to high level. I just recently came back,jumped on low key trains to get out of boosted greens, then started pushing my own key for progress and higher gear level. In a month of casual play (casual does not equal bad,you people need to learn the terms) i was able to get ksm. While pugging in off hours of the night.

Stop pretending like anything is stopping you besides yourself. And you are a healer on top of that, for whom it is poss easy to get into groups.

@OP the timer does not exist in m+ for a group geared and skilled for it. Its only there to punish failure like deaths and overpulls. You can literally pull 1 mob pack at a time and finish the dungeon on time. Ya'll are out here acting like you have to do giant pulls to time things, seems like youve never been in an actual high key.

[Aresk]

They have this. Tahsup, broker npc standing to the right of the Great vault. You can have him manually downgrade your key.

True, but it's less convenient than being able to drop it at the dungeon. They could even drop the key initially but then give you a key of the previous level upon completion after the timer to encourage people to finish M+ runs and allow easy dropping at the dungeon while circumventing the concerns about constant dungeon resets if a pull goes bad.

This has existed for quite a while. How many years ago did you quit playing?

First time I quit playing was in Cata. Last time I quit was in Legion. I've been subbed continuously from 7.3.5 onward. I started running Mythic+ in BfA. And we regularly drop keys by starting the dungeon, running out, and resetting. If they stopped downgrading a key when you start a dungeon, which is what we were talking about, I'd want a way to drop the key at the dungeon entrance, as there is now, instead of requiring people to go all the way back to Oribos (or the next expansion capitol), which would be required if they removed keys dropping in value during the run and didn't replace it with something else.

[Jester Joe]

I mean, most people who do M+ do it for loot, not because they particularly enjoy it. You'd see M+ participation drop at least 80% if it wasn't required for raiding.

The proof on this is easy, just loot at classic/tbclassic or any expansion before badges/m+ existed when dungeons were dead after the first week.

Feelings isn't an argument.

If your argument was actually true, no one would bother doing anything past 15s, since ilvl caps at that. Like, you guys realize that right?

[Kumorii]

Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.

[Onikaroshi]

Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.

just remove them and balance it somewhere in-between imo

[Relapses]

Nah, they should rework fortified and tyrannical tho.

They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.

[theostrichsays]

They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.

Sanguine Depths is another that has turned into a shit show with 4 pieces, in my experience. Had an 18 and then a 16 bricked with pugs this week. Both times, dps wouldn't move out with castigate at all, and killed the other dps and then raged at healer for not healing them through it, when "other healers had no problems" which I find fairly doubtful or just a simple "shit healer" and /leave group.

[rhorle]

Why? Why should a casual gamer not see all the content and have gearing progression?

Because they are choosing not to do it? This isn't about content either because you are talking about gear progression which is item levels.

Path of the Titans was nothing like you suggest it could have been. It was simply more talents similar to what Artifact weapons were in Legion. The developers are not elitist. They don't develop just for one group of people. Just because they don't give super casuals like yourself access to Mythic Raid gear doesn't mean then are ignoring you.

[rhorle]

Actually they give gameplay to one group of players only, and that is gearing progression to mythic+ players and premade group raiders.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it does not exist. There is gameplay outside of M+ and "premade" raiders. The amusing part of your complaints is that the game has more progression for non-raiders and non-M+ then ever before. And yet somehow you ignore all of that because anything but the best is "welfare". Then you sling insults at the developers.

It also ignores how the players you want catered to don't choose to do content that will get them progression you claim they want. Weird, right? You want the progression of others simply because you can't get it without doing that content. Instead of being content with the progression of your content.

Instead of engaging in that higher content you rage about developers not knowing basic RPG principles, or being elitists, or whatever else you claim. All because you won't choose to do the content that exists that will reward you with what you want.

[azka]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Thank you, but no. I like it the way it is.

[rhorle]

The developers themself call items that are not used for progression or items you get from doing nothing "welfare epics"

They call them welfare because of the joke from Blizzcon that the playerbase echoed at the time. You could get epics from Arena easier then from raids thus they were "welfare". You don't need to link to a research paper on the term. Lol. The game has a real progression system for all kind of players but for some of those players it stops at a lower item level then the rest.

There is no amount of game design that can give an equal progression for people that only play 2 to 3 times a month. So right off the bat you ignore the earlier group you were saying should have access to M+, right? Why exclude now that you've moved the goal posts? WoW was never a broad audience game even though it attracted one. It was designed to be a more casual version of Everquest at the time. Since Vanilla the game has given more things for every group of player to achieve. But that isn't good enough for you unless every group has equal progress rather then different limits of progression.

[bullseyed]

Timers aren't "bad". It's there to establish the times when you should be done to deserve 1, 2, or 3 chest. It's no different than enrages on boss, and I don't see anyone saying "enrages are dumb / bad."

As to the rest, people engaging in degenerate behaviour is a, hello, player problem. If the timer didn't exist, whatever mechanism in its place would create this degenerate behaviour, and the community would blame it on that.

If there was a time-damage dealt ratio instead, there would not be a perverse incentive to find the "easiest" pulls. Someone could pull the whole dungeon and kill it faster per hp point of what they killed, for example.

- - - Updated - - -

this always seemed such a weird argument to me, since almost everything in wow is gear driven... if raids stop giving gear you would see the participation drop to ground too...

You'd see people unsub if raids stopped giving gear. They're subbed to raid.

- - - Updated - - -

Feelings isn't an argument.

If your argument was actually true, no one would bother doing anything past 15s, since ilvl caps at that. Like, you guys realize that right?

Correct, almost no one pushes past 15s. Attempting a 17 puts you in the top 1%.

There's also all the data from when Bliz upped it from 10 to 15 and all the players who only ever did 10s starting doing 15s.

Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.

[Nightshade711]

Raider.io has 6,174,280 ranks on its leaderboard for Season 3. Even if you discount duplicates, errors, and what not that is still a lot of activity for something you claim any metric shows as a disaster. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a failure at every level.

Does raider.io even show that stuff for people who don't have the addon?

[Biomega]

Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.

That's far from evident here.

The only thing the data you cite shows is that people are unlikely to do more challenging content if it doesn't come with an increase in rewards, too. That doesn't mean they "dislike" the parts where that equation still holds true; it only means that they dislike it when the equation breaks down.

There's no reason to do higher than m+15 other than challenge - and so most people don't do it. Whether or not that means they hate doing M+15s and lower where they DO get better rewards is a different question, and requires different data to investigate.

[zhorteye]

Blizzard could always assign some rating system to M+ similar to Torgahst. Kill all the mobs for extra points. Complete the dungeon quickly for extra points. Penalize score based on deaths. Scale the score based on the key level. Give bonuses for certain amounts of percentage of the total time in combat or having the group stay above 50% health for a certain amount of time in combat or for interrupting a certain percentage of casts, for taking less than X avoidable damage, etc. There are plenty of metrics that could be applied beyond just "Finished this dungeon this quickly."



I would love to see what a M+ Shadow Labs would look like. What timer would you even assign to something like that?



What do you mean that there's no way to track who engages with the mission table? There are literally achievements for that. Wowhead's achievement tracking shows 64% of profiles have run 100 missions. Additionally, 16% of profiles have three adventurers at level 60. Meanwhile, 5% of profiles have Shadowlands Keystone Master Season Three, and 19% earned Keystone Master in Season Two. Keystone Master for Season Two was only slightly more successful than leveling adventurers, by these metrics.

Shadowlabs is reliably doable by a coordinated group in 40 minutes.. so i would put that as the timer.

[Jester Joe]

Correct, almost no one pushes past 15s. Attempting a 17 puts you in the top 1%.

There's also all the data from when Bliz upped it from 10 to 15 and all the players who only ever did 10s starting doing 15s.

Despite your fee fees of how much you love M+, the data proves it is a chore that is almost universally disliked.

Ah yes, a sample size of...wait, what was it

oh yes, 762k unique players timing 15s and above is clearly "disliked".

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...rboards-strict

Because timing 15s is definitely *not* pushing past that right? Mind you, there's no sorting on raider.io to even check how many people are doing 17s, so it's pretty weird to claim you know that somehow, nor did Blizzard give data about how many people moved from doing 10s to 15s. So you're creating data that doesn't exist anyway.

You're making a nonsensical argument of "Gear is the only motivation to do it" when gear and mounts are the motivation behind nearly all of WoW's endgame content. You're complaining that the endgame is the endgame basically, which is absolutely silly. If you hate M+, don't do it. Don't demand its changed to suit your needs when its been one of the most popular features since it was added to the game.

[bullseyed]

Sanguine Depths is another that has turned into a shit show with 4 pieces, in my experience. Had an 18 and then a 16 bricked with pugs this week. Both times, dps wouldn't move out with castigate at all, and killed the other dps and then raged at healer for not healing them through it, when "other healers had no problems" which I find fairly doubtful or just a simple "shit healer" and /leave group.

/cast Feign Death

What's castigate?

- - - Updated - - -

Ah yes, a sample size of...wait, what was it

oh yes, 762k unique players timing 15s and above is clearly "disliked".

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...rboards-strict

Because timing 15s is definitely *not* pushing past that right? Mind you, there's no sorting on raider.io to even check how many people are doing 17s, so it's pretty weird to claim you know that somehow, nor did Blizzard give data about how many people moved from doing 10s to 15s. So you're creating data that doesn't exist anyway.

You're making a nonsensical argument of "Gear is the only motivation to do it" when gear and mounts are the motivation behind nearly all of WoW's endgame content. You're complaining that the endgame is the endgame basically, which is absolutely silly. If you hate M+, don't do it. Don't demand its changed to suit your needs when its been one of the most popular features since it was added to the game.

For those who can't read...

15s
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=15
Sample size: 701,163 - Raider io

15s and up
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
Sample size: 762,237 - Raider io


762,237
- 701,163
-----------
61,074
== 8%


So less than 10% of people who can even time a 15 bother ever doing higher than a 15.

All mythic levels
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
Sample size: 1,812,072

61,074 == 3.3%


Less than 4% of people who run any key ever do higher than a 15.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no reason to do higher than m+15 other than challenge - and so most people don't do it.

For those like this guy who quit a while ago, there are rewards for each individual 20, as well as averaging all 20s (3k score).

Most people (96.7%) don't bother, because they're only doing any keys for the weekly chest to boost their raid performance.

[Argorwal]

They need to do something about Tyrannical. With Fort, the likelihood of wiping to trash is much higher and it's generally way more stressful on the tank but you can mostly brute force the bosses and finish the key. With Tyr, you end up bricking a key because one or two players are simply incapable of performing a boss mechanic. (See: Literally any fucking boss in DoS) You can spend time explaining it to these people and they'll just keep taking it to the chin. It's actually getting worse now that people have 4-sets and everything because it's even easier to brute force a Fort key... making the average player even more resilient against learning encounters. It's very frustrating to have a 40+ minute key bricked because a single player in your group is functionally incapable of dodging or performing a required mechanic.

What’s funny is this is exactly what every key would be if Blizzard ever removed the timer from mythic+ and just retuned it to make non-completion the failure not non-timing.

Wall bosses with no hope to kill for many players.

And yet it gets championed like it would be easier and more accessible without the stress of a timer.

[taishar68]

First, I want to toss out an old complaint about the "X is easy" crowd. Easy and difficult are subjective terms, and what you may find easy, others may find difficult. I agree that in general, there are some things we can say are objectively easy, like counting to 5, but even then, there are some people who might have difficulty counting anything, for various reasons.

Second, one of the arguments raised in favor of timed content is that, in the absence of a countdown, players would game the system by waiting on long cooldowns before every pack, trivializing the content and slowing the game down. To that I say...have you met WoW players? They won't slow down if their life depended on it. Long before we had any sort of serious timed content, the "gogogo" crowd was already in full throat, and timer or no timer, no one is waiting out cooldowns for trash, it is just not happening. While I don't say it is impossible, I just don't see a lot of people doing that. It wasn't done in BC or Wrath, and I highly doubt that would change now.

Third, and lastly, there is a practical real world benefit to not having timed content that lasts longer than 10-15 minutes; the ability to get up do something else for a few seconds. Now there is a fair argument there; if someone wants to do a key, and a high one at that, then maybe plan on being tied up for 30-45 minutes, which isn't really a long time in the grand scheme of things. However, what if more people did keys simply because they knew that, if they had to afk bio or the dog wet the rug or the kid threw up, they could take 5 minutes to take care of that. But this would really just be QoL...I mean, the system does seem to be working well, but perhaps more engagement would be a good thing. I think there might be room for both in the game, and the elitist attitude of "get good/casuals don't need gear/my experience>yours" doesn't make the game more fun. In my opinion.