10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Jester Joe]

For those who can't read...

15s
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=15
Sample size: 701,163 - Raider io

15s and up
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
Sample size: 762,237 - Raider io


762,237
- 701,163
-----------
61,074
== 8%


So less than 10% of people who can even time a 15 bother ever doing higher than a 15.

All mythic levels
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99
Sample size: 1,812,072

61,074 == 3.3%


Less than 4% of people who run any key ever do higher than a 15.

So you're admitting your original percent was pulled out of nowhere?

Cool. Again, you're still missing the fact that you have no way to actually prove if people are doing 15s out of enjoyment or not. Your entire argument is based on an assumption. Also you're comparing timed runs to timed runs, not timed 15s to untimed 15s and higher. Not all keys pushed higher than 15s are timed.

Not to mention, people going for the mount have no reason to push higher than a 15 either.

[rhorle]

timer or no timer, no one is waiting out cooldowns for trash, it is just not happening. While I don't say it is impossible, I just don't see a lot of people doing that. It wasn't done in BC or Wrath, and I highly doubt that would change now.

Because there wasn't challenging trash in BC or Wrath. In Mythic+ you might have trash packs that are easier with cooldowns the same as now. If you can have things up for every pack then they become easier. The reason why you don't have them up every time now is because of the timer.

Also doesn't your third point contradict your second point? If everyone is just going to play "go go go" anyways then getting up for a few seconds will be frowned upon even with out a timer, right?

[taishar68]

Because there wasn't challenging trash in BC or Wrath. In Mythic+ you might have trash packs that are easier with cooldowns the same as now. If you can have things up for every pack then they become easier. The reason why you don't have them up every time now is because of the timer.

Also doesn't your third point contradict your second point? If everyone is just going to play "go go go" anyways then getting up for a few seconds will be frowned upon even with out a timer, right?

Challenging in Wrath? Absolutely not. In BC, there was challenge to some packs; if certain casters got off a heal or a fear it could cause a wipe, not to mention that heroic trash mobs could nearly one shot DPS, but due to the nature of the game at the time, packs were always focused down, as opposed to AoE, at least in the circles I ran in. When Wrath came along, aoe for trash was the norm.

As for the "go go go"...yes, you are probably right about that; pugs are rarely patient, in any situation. But I was looking at it from two different points of view-I stand by the statement that I don't think the general M+ community would suddenly wait around for cooldowns, but as to the other pov, I was alluding to the fact that players who don't do M+ now might be more inclined if they were not up against a timer, but the group as a whole would have to be patient as well...which, as mentioned many times, can be done now by just not timing, and is a fair point if we're talking about gear acquisition and engagement.

I'm a player that would prefer non-timed Mythics, because I'm old and slow, but I don't think they should change things for me; if the consensus wants timed content, I think it should stay as is. But I also think that the two modes could exist at the same time, different rewards, different achievements, etc. Say for example I beat, but don't time, all the dungeons at +15, I get some achievement and a mount. The person who does the same thing but times them all gets a cooler achievement and a fancier mount. These are just examples, I'm not saying I personally want or need these things, but it could be done.

[Biomega]

I'm not saying I personally want or need these things, but it could be done.

Many things COULD be done, but the question is more SHOULD they be done.

Personal preference is one thing, but timers also have a protective function. They prevent people from getting stuck in a bad place of sunk cost, where they think they need to finish something for the reward despite it not going well. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours in a failing dungeon where you wipe over and over and people only stick around because there's a reward waiting - a timer gives you an out there, because it sets the limits of how long something should take. And you can still break that limit if you so choose - that's not taken away. It just means that it might not be worth doing for the reward in question, which helps prevent tedious experiences where people would feel obligated to stay well past what they'd ordinarily want to commit to.

Of course they could still just leave; but this isn't about hard limits, it's about creating a sentiment of what is and is not acceptable. And on top of that, it also helps safeguard against degeneracy - e.g. people going into a massively difficult key with absurd setups like 3 tanks 2 healers, grinding out a completion; or the oft-quoted waiting for Bloodlust every pack, etc. You don't want THAT to become an accepted norm, because then people will feel pressured into doing it for rewards.

In addition, timers enforce performance: much like incoming damage requires tanks and healers to perform, timers pressure DPS to put out required numbers and mechanical competency. If you could simply brute-force everything, people would feel no need to improve, and in the long run that hurts everyone. Additionally, it enforces group play that respects each others' time. You're in this for a particular time span, and you have an obligation - enforced by rewards - to make that time count. You can't just randomly afk for 10 minutes and you can't expect people to just carry you, you need to perform. That's not a bad thing, though it does admittedly come with certain negative effects (people leaving at the first problem, for example). Many of those problems can be mitigated by things other than the timer, though.

Without timers, you'd either have to limit rewards (taking away a secondary gearing route) or you'd have to limit difficulty (effectively negating the idea of an open-ended system). Either of which would be a downgrade from what we have now.

M+ has plenty of areas where it could use improvement. But the timer is an integral part of how it works, and for good reason. You can't simply take it away and expect things to suddenly be all fun and games without pressure - because that's not how things worked before M+ either. Nobody wants their time wasted, and nobody wants dungeons to return to meaninglessness in the face of raiding. For that, we really do need things to be timed.

Maybe the solution is to make a compromise, something like having timers not start until M+10 or something. That way more casual players can earn some gear in a more relaxed environment, while everything even remotely competing with raid-level gear would still have to respect a timer.

[taishar68]

Many things COULD be done, but the question is more SHOULD they be done.

Personal preference is one thing, but timers also have a protective function. They prevent people from getting stuck in a bad place of sunk cost, where they think they need to finish something for the reward despite it not going well. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours in a failing dungeon where you wipe over and over and people only stick around because there's a reward waiting - a timer gives you an out there, because it sets the limits of how long something should take. And you can still break that limit if you so choose - that's not taken away. It just means that it might not be worth doing for the reward in question, which helps prevent tedious experiences where people would feel obligated to stay well past what they'd ordinarily want to commit to.

Of course they could still just leave; but this isn't about hard limits, it's about creating a sentiment of what is and is not acceptable. And on top of that, it also helps safeguard against degeneracy - e.g. people going into a massively difficult key with absurd setups like 3 tanks 2 healers, grinding out a completion; or the oft-quoted waiting for Bloodlust every pack, etc. You don't want THAT to become an accepted norm, because then people will feel pressured into doing it for rewards.

In addition, timers enforce performance: much like incoming damage requires tanks and healers to perform, timers pressure DPS to put out required numbers and mechanical competency. If you could simply brute-force everything, people would feel no need to improve, and in the long run that hurts everyone. Additionally, it enforces group play that respects each others' time. You're in this for a particular time span, and you have an obligation - enforced by rewards - to make that time count. You can't just randomly afk for 10 minutes and you can't expect people to just carry you, you need to perform. That's not a bad thing, though it does admittedly come with certain negative effects (people leaving at the first problem, for example). Many of those problems can be mitigated by things other than the timer, though.

Without timers, you'd either have to limit rewards (taking away a secondary gearing route) or you'd have to limit difficulty (effectively negating the idea of an open-ended system). Either of which would be a downgrade from what we have now.

M+ has plenty of areas where it could use improvement. But the timer is an integral part of how it works, and for good reason. You can't simply take it away and expect things to suddenly be all fun and games without pressure - because that's not how things worked before M+ either. Nobody wants their time wasted, and nobody wants dungeons to return to meaninglessness in the face of raiding. For that, we really do need things to be timed.

Maybe the solution is to make a compromise, something like having timers not start until M+10 or something. That way more casual players can earn some gear in a more relaxed environment, while everything even remotely competing with raid-level gear would still have to respect a timer.

You make some excellent points, awesome post. Of course, one thing that everyone can do, and most don't (Guilty!) is form their own custom groups, and specify you don't care about the timer. You never know, you might find some old souls to join you...and still beat the damn thing.

[klaps_05]

MDI should be old challenge mode style and TGP should remain as is. Both should be available on live, and bring back the challenge mode system where the gold/silver/bronze players are displayed.

[cool_freezer]

Do you have anything to actually support these claims?
Yes they weren't the core of the WoW experience, because they are a more recent addition.

They are absolutely not complex or inaccessible.

If a player isn't skilled enough or willing to put in the effort for even mediocre M+ keys (+9 and lower), then they are also not capable of doing normal raids. And since there is no other reason to get better gear, there is no problem.

And this is the problem. M+ AND raids can and should co-exist without having to do the other. The problem here is that the playerbase makes it mandatory to do M+ to get into raid(guild)s. I don't have the time and am not willed to commit to M+ just for raiding. This to get better gear to down bosses that in the end drop gear you do not need anymore. Before thr M+ system you progressed in raids, got better loot, improved with that gear and this was the reward. Kill bosses, get loot, kill bosses easier and more bosses and finally beat the raid. This was a natural progression. This gets screwed by M+. The addition of the weekly chest made it worse and the greater vault even more...

[sensei-]

And this is the problem. M+ AND raids can and should co-exist without having to do the other. The problem here is that the playerbase makes it mandatory to do M+ to get into raid(guild)s. I don't have the time and am not willed to commit to M+ just for raiding. This to get better gear to down bosses that in the end drop gear you do not need anymore. Before thr M+ system you progressed in raids, got better loot, improved with that gear and this was the reward. Kill bosses, get loot, kill bosses easier and more bosses and finally beat the raid. This was a natural progression. This gets screwed by M+. The addition of the weekly chest made it worse and the greater vault even more...

This has to be the best whine blog post ever.

”I don’t like it when I get useful items from dungeons and a weekly chest. I like to get loot only from raid boss rng tables. I also don’t think anyone who doesn’t raid should get any loot at all”

Well done man.

Here’s a tip. If you don’t have 35 minutes to do one 15 key per week, just don’t do it. Don’t step into dungeons. There’s plenty of guilds who don’t care that your items are bad and behind the curve. Those guilds are full of like-minded guys like you.

But you don’t want that right? You want to play your (lazy and casual) way and that the entire game conforms to your playing habits. For some reason you think it’s a problem that guys who spend 10 times more time than you in the game have higher character progression. You’re selfish.

[Biomega]

M+ AND raids can and should co-exist without having to do the other.

I think this mostly hinges on what you consider "having to do" something.

Is your goal to get the best possible gear available? Then you'll "have to do" all sorts of things. You can complain that you don't like certain things (there's certain ways in which that is entirely valid as a complaint) but you must not forget that the goal here is one you set for yourself: nothing FORCES you to get the best gear you can, you WANT to get the best gear you can.

Now, where it gets tricky I totally agree is when there's perceived "entry requirements" to certain forms of content. You want to do mythic raids, you're expected to perform at a certain level, and have gear of a certain level; what levels exactly, that's a bit of a matter of negotiation, but there's probably a general consensus of a somewhat high level. That's a frequent source of frustration, because for many people this means that - like with the above goal of "best gear" - you're likely to get to what you want to do only by ways of things you DON'T want to do. Maybe you hate Torghast or rep grinds or whatever, but those are "mandatory" activities (at least to some degree) if you want to get their rewards.

But here, too, a goal is in play that you set for yourself. "I want to do mythic raiding" is a totally reasonable goal, but it's always been understood - from the start of the game - that if you want to do the highest tier of raiding, you have to be willing and able to do the things required for it. That hasn't change because of the existence of M+, and it hasn't changed pretty much since Vanilla.

What HAS changed is the selection of activities, and the stratification of difficulty levels. No one would disagree that mythic raiding now is harder by orders of magnitude than raiding was in Vanilla, or than heroic raids were in WotLK and onwards. And given that the difficulty ceiling has risen, it would similarly stand to reason that the entry requirements for that difficulty would rise as well - i.e. that you need to do more to be ready for mythic raiding than you had to do for regular raiding in Vanilla (and that both require(d) nonzero effort).

It doesn't make much sense to demand access to the highest tier of raiding but forego the requirements for getting there. And that IS what people are demanding if they say "I don't want to ever do M+ I only want to raid but they won't let me", for a simple reason: they're actually trying to skip ahead in progression, but aren't aware or won't admit that that's what they're asking for. You can absolutely get into mythic raiding without ever doing M+ dungeons, even in fairly demanding raiding guilds. They don't actually care where your gear comes from, they only care that it's good. You COULD just farm normal and heroic raids, and build your gear that way. You'll have entirely sufficient gear to do mythic raiding, and never have to set food in a dungeon. But here's the catch: IT TAKES A LOT LONGER. If you're unwilling to wait, that is - once again- ON YOU. You're setting yourself up for failure by choosing to set yourself personal goals and choosing a time frame to get there, then complaining that you "have to do" things to get to those goals in the time you allow yourself.

And just to be clear: it's fine to say "I don't like doing X". No one can or should intervene in your personal preference. But you are not the only person in the world, and in many forms of content you have to play together with other people. AND THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SET STANDARDS AND MAKE DEMANDS. if a guild says "we want everyone to be XXX ilvl before we take them into mythic raids" that's not unreasonable. 20 people are putting up their own time and enjoyment, and they all rely on everyone else to respect those. If your personal preference doesn't fit with 19 other people's - you know what, you don't get to play with those people. Find other people who match your preference. They're out there. And if they're not, then perhaps it's time to reassess the goals you're setting for yourself.

[chiddie]

Many things COULD be done, but the question is more SHOULD they be done.

Personal preference is one thing, but timers also have a protective function. They prevent people from getting stuck in a bad place of sunk cost, where they think they need to finish something for the reward despite it not going well. Nobody wants to spend 3 hours in a failing dungeon where you wipe over and over and people only stick around because there's a reward waiting - a timer gives you an out there, because it sets the limits of how long something should take. And you can still break that limit if you so choose - that's not taken away. It just means that it might not be worth doing for the reward in question, which helps prevent tedious experiences where people would feel obligated to stay well past what they'd ordinarily want to commit to.

Of course they could still just leave; but this isn't about hard limits, it's about creating a sentiment of what is and is not acceptable. And on top of that, it also helps safeguard against degeneracy - e.g. people going into a massively difficult key with absurd setups like 3 tanks 2 healers, grinding out a completion; or the oft-quoted waiting for Bloodlust every pack, etc. You don't want THAT to become an accepted norm, because then people will feel pressured into doing it for rewards.

In addition, timers enforce performance: much like incoming damage requires tanks and healers to perform, timers pressure DPS to put out required numbers and mechanical competency. If you could simply brute-force everything, people would feel no need to improve, and in the long run that hurts everyone. Additionally, it enforces group play that respects each others' time. You're in this for a particular time span, and you have an obligation - enforced by rewards - to make that time count. You can't just randomly afk for 10 minutes and you can't expect people to just carry you, you need to perform. That's not a bad thing, though it does admittedly come with certain negative effects (people leaving at the first problem, for example). Many of those problems can be mitigated by things other than the timer, though.

Without timers, you'd either have to limit rewards (taking away a secondary gearing route) or you'd have to limit difficulty (effectively negating the idea of an open-ended system). Either of which would be a downgrade from what we have now.

M+ has plenty of areas where it could use improvement. But the timer is an integral part of how it works, and for good reason. You can't simply take it away and expect things to suddenly be all fun and games without pressure - because that's not how things worked before M+ either. Nobody wants their time wasted, and nobody wants dungeons to return to meaninglessness in the face of raiding. For that, we really do need things to be timed.

Maybe the solution is to make a compromise, something like having timers not start until M+10 or something. That way more casual players can earn some gear in a more relaxed environment, while everything even remotely competing with raid-level gear would still have to respect a timer.

I would rather prefer wipe 20 minutes more in a dungeon than refreshing the M+ page and apply to everything waiting for someone to accept my apply.

People are not realizing that queuing for M+ (or trying to form a group) as a pug dps is simply a nightmare unless you have literally hours to waste.

M+ experience DRASTICALLY changes basing on being able to do them with a fixed group of friends or not.

[cool_freezer]

This has to be the best whine blog post ever.

”I don’t like it when I get useful items from dungeons and a weekly chest. I like to get loot only from raid boss rng tables. I also don’t think anyone who doesn’t raid should get any loot at all”

Well done man.

Here’s a tip. If you don’t have 35 minutes to do one 15 key per week, just don’t do it. Don’t step into dungeons. There’s plenty of guilds who don’t care that your items are bad and behind the curve. Those guilds are full of like-minded guys like you.

But you don’t want that right? You want to play your (lazy and casual) way and that the entire game conforms to your playing habits. For some reason you think it’s a problem that guys who spend 10 times more time than you in the game have higher character progression. You’re selfish.

1. This is not a blog post this was a thread reply
2. If your crippled mind does not get what others are talking about do not pretend they are whining.
3. If the system is flawed then it should get fixed. All systems in question on their own are not really bad. But the sum of them and what the players do about it makes it a mess.

They habe the technology they did not have have in BC for example, when they tried to split up pvp and pve gear with resilence.

Why not give through all game modes the exact same max ilvl. In the open world and the instanced content it was aquired it remains that high (or low). As soon as you enter another type of instanced content it gets scaled down (but not up!)to the entry ilvl of that content type. If you are fully mytic raid equipped and enter a m+ dungeon you get scaled down to m0 gear, same for m15 geared entering a raidzone scaled down to normal ilvl. This restriction only applies to current expansion or gets lifted with legacy buff for older raids.

[DechCJC]

I literally can’t think of a more unnecessary and asinine change that they could make to the game. I really can’t.

There should be changes to mythic plus but this ain’t it, the timer is a big part of how the challenge is incorporated. If you don’t time it then you’re going to be stuck with a key that you may be incapable of timing.

Furthermore, if the keys didn’t decline, then the barrier to vault gear from M+ would be even lower than it already is as you would be guaranteed the +15 rewards by just repeatedly spamming it (as it wouldn’t deplete).

M+ is already FAR and away and the easiest method to get the best vault loot; Duelist and Mythic raiding are leagues ahead. If I had my way I’d have the vault give max rewards at 2400+, +20 keys and mythic raiding, but that’s a different topic entirely. I think it really sucks that most players that aren’t at the top of their game have to default to mythic + because it’s so much easier than the alternatives for vault loot.

Just find a group of players that are chill and don’t care about the time; removing the timer itself ruins what so many people enjoy about it in the first place.

[JustaWarlock]

no, thats a terrible idea.

M+ has been more popular than challenge dungeons by a fucking mile. Why would you want it to be reverted back to something where folks do them once, and then never again.

Fucking dumb

Of course it's been more popular. It's mostly trivially easy and rewards mythic raid quality loot for failing to time a key. It completely invalidates raid gearing and farming, because all you need to do is stumble your way through a 15 and even if you miss the timer by an hour you still get your free mythic raid item.

[Arai]

I agree the timer has to be removed to start making M+ a good feature. Of course the M+ design has to be radically changed for it to work, but in it's current design M+ is a extremely toxic feature only popular because it's the only substitute to endgame raiding requiring far less logistics. However it is terrible in every other gameplay perspective for an MMORPG.

[ulululu]

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK.

And that is how you sort out the quality of an argument quickly without wasting time. Chainpull like its WotLK, lol, what a comparison.

If you want to play smooth, relaxed dungeons without a timer where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WotLK - play m0 Dungeons then. Btw, dont know if the news got to you, but you do not necessarily need to do this in m+ either. You can do it, you will be more likely to beat the timer but I don't particularly get what you want from this. Getting score? You seem you yourself are not sure about that one following your argumentation.

The difficulty comes with increased key levels, it is harder to complete a +25 within the same timer you have for a +15 - rewards or gearwise you don't necessarily need to play that high. If you can't complete a +15 that for the most part is your responsibility, not the systems.

And another news flash: "Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience" You wont like this one: Timed dungeons became part of it. They are so fundamentally implemented in this game and so inextricable from the playing experience you should gradually accept them to be one of the essential pillars of WoW.

You know what you could do, if you want the "core of the WOW experience"? TBC realms are a deal these days, theys are not WotLK so there are no "chainpulls" to be afraid of.

- - - Updated - - -

This has to be the best whine blog post ever.

”I don’t like it when I get useful items from dungeons and a weekly chest. I like to get loot only from raid boss rng tables. I also don’t think anyone who doesn’t raid should get any loot at all”

Well done man.

Here’s a tip. If you don’t have 35 minutes to do one 15 key per week, just don’t do it. Don’t step into dungeons. There’s plenty of guilds who don’t care that your items are bad and behind the curve. Those guilds are full of like-minded guys like you.

But you don’t want that right? You want to play your (lazy and casual) way and that the entire game conforms to your playing habits. For some reason you think it’s a problem that guys who spend 10 times more time than you in the game have higher character progression. You’re selfish.

I think this is probably the most genuine and accurate comment here.

Nothing to be added. It's just them trying to forcefully accomodate the playing experience of every other person to their own playing habits. If the game does not bend around their liking and conforms to their playing habits it's bad and needs to be changed to their benefits.

[cool_freezer]

I think this is probably the most genuine and accurate comment here.

Nothing to be added. It's just them trying to forcefully accomodate the playing experience of every other person to their own playing habits. If the game does not bend around their liking and conforms to their playing habits it's bad and needs to be changed to their benefits.

I am not forcing my habit to anyone elses. If someone wants to literally waste time doing 10 m+ a week to fill up a chest to get ONE max ilvl item they are free to do so, but this hurts another different aspect of the game that at its core has absolutely NOTHING to do with the m+ system.

Sub numbers are down to 6 digits. If you still try to defend m+ and vault and everything that has to do with it, then try to take a look at what it ultimately has done to this game. I think m+ is a good mode in itself and if some likes it i am fine with it. But it should not influence other aspects of the game.

[ellieg]

I would rather prefer wipe 20 minutes more in a dungeon than refreshing the M+ page and apply to everything waiting for someone to accept my apply.

People are not realizing that queuing for M+ (or trying to form a group) as a pug dps is simply a nightmare unless you have literally hours to waste.

M+ experience DRASTICALLY changes basing on being able to do them with a fixed group of friends or not.

I see u post stuff like this all the time but I simply cannot relate. I play a non meta, melee, on alliance, during off peak hours, only pugging. And I don't have this problem at all.

Are you applying to keys that are only +1 higher than your timed for that dungeon? Are you making sure to collect score from all dungeons so your overall score stays up?

What abt when you post your own key? Are you getting literally 0 ppl q after 10 mins? If so, is that because its like a +13 key and you have 700 rating?

Whats ur ilvl, spec, and rating? What keys are you applying to?

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it's been more popular. It's mostly trivially easy and rewards mythic raid quality loot for failing to time a key. It completely invalidates raid gearing and farming, because all you need to do is stumble your way through a 15 and even if you miss the timer by an hour you still get your free mythic raid item.

How did these stumbling players that miss the timer by an hour get a 15 key?

[ek0zu]

TBH, if something works and brings joy to people should stay as is, it would now be wise for any company to change something that is very successful and has high participation.

I think i have participated in 5 Mythic+ at most, since their inception and it is not blizzard's fault that either the guilds that i have been did not have the "time" or i did not invest on finding my own group to do so.

[chiddie]

I see u post stuff like this all the time but I simply cannot relate. I play a non meta, melee, on alliance, during off peak hours, only pugging. And I don't have this problem at all.

Are you applying to keys that are only +1 higher than your timed for that dungeon? Are you making sure to collect score from all dungeons so your overall score stays up?

What abt when you post your own key? Are you getting literally 0 ppl q after 10 mins? If so, is that because its like a +13 key and you have 700 rating?

Whats ur ilvl, spec, and rating? What keys are you applying to?

- - - Updated - - -



How did these stumbling players that miss the timer by an hour get a 15 key?

Experience may vary depending on hours and servers and so on.

I had terrible experiences as dps and no, I was not trying to pug a 15 with 150 ilvl

I simply cannot afford wasting time in queue. Luckily enough D3 S26 is in 5 hours or so, I’ll be back with ranting mid summer XD

[Okacz]

Excited to sit in a dungeon for 5 hours as we wait for lust on every pull in order to be able to complete the most challenging key level.

Why would you do that to yourself?

Anyway, one easy solution for those with no self control would be perhaps BL reset after bosses/wipes. Unless you're talking about waiting for 10 min every TRASH pull, but that's not even close to reasonable.

"No timer" would then reintroduce a lot of the previous mechanics to the game, like CCing 1-2 mobs per pack and such, making it a bit more methodical than pulling 3 packs at once and offering a sacrifice to Dazhbog to not miss a single interrupt. Doesn't sound that bad to me. And would certainly reduce the issue with leavers depleting key levels, or the general tryhard approach to the dungeon.