Dark Ranger Customizations (Coming in 9.2.5)!!!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Them being a conduit does not necessarily make magic "natural". Again, you just keep ignoring what I'm saying here:


Excuse me? Can yo show me where it says that "the laws of nature are written by the elementals and nature spirits?"

The magic comes directly from the raw power of elementals which is all natural as stated by both chronicles and the shaman class page.

And I haven’t ignored that at all I’ve addressed it twice you just don’t seem to like the answer that the laws of nature aren’t the same in Warcraft as in real life and that blizzard them selfs have already said that elemental/nature magic are natural.

And I you want the laws of nature being written but the elements/spirits see The shattering, elemental upheaval, chronicles and likely some Druid crud though none comes to mind at the moment.

[cocomen2]

Combining martial prowess with supernatural cold, frost death knights leave their enemies chilled to the bone—and broken of the will to fight. Unlike mages who learn to harness frost magic to great effect, these death knights are born of it, rime gripping their decaying hearts. These frozen undead warriors wield dual blades to strike with ferocity and inflict deathly cold upon anyone who would stand against them.

All it does is proving, that they use same "Frost" magic but method for obtaining it a different.

A) Mage - study -> study magic -> learn frost magic.

B) "Hello Jerry, from this day, you are Death Knight, here is yours runeblade that has some "Frost" magic in it"
"Do i need to know anything else? maybe someone can teach me how to read?"
"Don't bother yourself with these thoughts, be good knight, go beat shit out of these peasants"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All it does is proving, that they use same "Frost" magic but method for obtaining it a different.

A) Mage - study -> study magic -> learn frost magic.

B) "Hello Jerry, from this day, you are Death Knight, here is yours runeblade that has some "Frost" magic in it"
"Do i need to know anything else? maybe someone can teach me how to read?"
"Don't bother yourself with these thoughts, be good knight, go beat shit out of these peasants"

Mages frost (and fire) magic is a byproduct of using arcane to manipulate temperatures, while I suppose it’s possible DK’s are also using arcane but without having to be trained that seems rather unlikely.

[Ielenia]

The magic comes directly from the raw power of elementals which is all natural as stated by both chronicles and the shaman class page.

The elementals grant magic to the shamans, yes, but it doesn't say that they are the creators/source of elemental magic.

And I haven’t ignored that at all I’ve addressed it twice you just don’t seem to like the answer that the laws of nature aren’t the same in Warcraft as in real life and that blizzard them selfs have already said that elemental/nature magic are natural.

You just said, and I quote:

the laws of nature are written by the elementals and the nature spirits

Of which you have shown zero evidence of.

And I you want the laws of nature being written but the elements/spirits see The shattering, elemental upheaval, chronicles and likely some Druid crud though none comes to mind at the moment.

I call bullshit on that. You made the claim, you need to show the evidence and not say "go look for it yourself".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The elementals grant magic to the shamans, yes, but it doesn't say that they are the creators/source of elemental magic.

from the legion page again.

the natural elements of the physical universe have been celebrated, feared, and even worshipped. Mystics sought communion with the earth, air, fire, and water, and learned to tap into their raw power.

The elementals are the source.

You just said, and I quote:
Of which you have shown zero evidence of.


I call bullshit on that. You made the claim, you need to show the evidence and not say "go look for it yourself".

Azeroth has its own bit about how the low amount of spirit made the elementals stronger and how they changed the laws of nature around them just by being in a area but that’s spread over a few pages (27-32) of the first chronicles so I’m just gonna go with the effect on Dreanor as it’s more succinct and covers both the elements and other forms of natural life.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/wJ9IHzl6q5...qJCDpP1w=s1600

So not a lot of spirit the elements stomp about reshaping the world to there respective elements, a whole bunch of spirit the elementals don’t stomp about and instead organic life grows incredibly fast and varied.

And please don’t hit me with “it doesn’t say law of nature any where” or some such after brining up tree growth rates or cold showing up in hot areas your self.

[Ielenia]

from the legion page again.
The elementals are the source.



Azeroth has its own bit about how the low amount of spirit made the elementals stronger and how they changed the laws of nature around them just by being in a area but that’s spread over a few pages (27-32) of the first chronicles so I’m just gonna go with the effect on Dreanor as it’s more succinct and covers both the elements and other forms of natural life.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/wJ9IHzl6q5...qJCDpP1w=s1600

So not a lot of spirit the elements stomp about reshaping the world to there respective elements, a whole bunch of spirit the elementals don’t stomp about and instead organic life grows incredibly fast and varied.

And please don’t hit me with “it doesn’t say law of nature any where” or some such after brining up tree growth rates or cold showing up in hot areas your self.

But none of that says magic is "natural". Natural is what occurs normally, such as water freezing under high temperatures, tree saplings slowly growing on fertile soil, etc. "Supernatural" would be those things happening under impossible conditions, like water freezing while exposed to the summer sun, or a tree sapling growing in the middle of the desert, or ice catching on fire.

Which is what magic does. Magic is supernatural.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But none of that says magic is "natural". Natural is what occurs normally, such as water freezing under high temperatures, tree saplings slowly growing on fertile soil, etc. "Supernatural" would be those things happening under impossible conditions, like water freezing while exposed to the summer sun, or a tree sapling growing in the middle of the desert, or ice catching on fire.

Which is what magic does. Magic is supernatural.

I’d suggest you go read the first few pages of the first chronicles, Warcraft by its veru nature is Magical, you can work your self up into a tizzy trying to apply real world standards to Warcraft all day but that won’t make magic any less natural to its universe.

[Alanar]

Would you say the Mag'har clans are organizations?
Or the Dwarf clans?

Shrug.. ok, so you could say a clan is a group of people united by kinship or lineage.
An organisation you could say is a group of people institution, or an association having a particular goal or purpose.

I guess there is a small difference there.. and in wow in all comes down to the same thing.. a group of people name tagged by the word clan, tribe, organisation or what ever. The san'layn could have had elven families there, does it matter? And was it kinship that brought them together as the san'layn? No not really they were formed by some one else. Against their will even you could say.

So without doing the whole circle thing and not really responding to what I said earlier, What did you not understand about the situation of Darkfallen?

[Ielenia]

I’d suggest you go read the first few pages of the first chronicles, Warcraft by its veru nature is Magical, you can work your self up into a tizzy trying to apply real world standards to Warcraft all day but that won’t make magic any less natural to its universe.

And can apply your own definition of 'natural' all day but that won't change that fact that what magic can do is not natural. Again:
• Trees don't naturally grow in seconds in a desert.
• Ice doesn't naturally form under the sun in a hot summer day.
• Fire doesn't naturally occur without something to burn.
• Water doesn't naturally flow up a hill.
Etc, etc.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And can apply your own definition of 'natural' all day but that won't change that fact that what magic can do is not natural. Again:
• Trees don't naturally grow in seconds in a desert.
• Ice doesn't naturally form under the sun in a hot summer day.
• Fire doesn't naturally occur without something to burn.
• Water doesn't naturally flow up a hill.
Etc, etc.

Blizzard would disagree which as evident by them building there universe on magic and stating multiple time's that it's natural.

[Triceron]

Azeroth according to Ielenia:

Everything is Supernatural

[cocomen2]

Azeroth according to Ielenia:

Everything is Supernatural

But it is true for WoW world.

real world has no magic = natural.

WoW world has a magic = supernatural.

WoW world has gigantic creatures that exist without any source of food to sustain their life... almost immortals = supernatural.

WoW world magic is not natural even for their world otherwise 100% population of people would be a mages, like in any anime with that type of world.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But it is true for WoW world.

real world has no magic = natural.

WoW world has a magic = supernatural.

WoW world has gigantic creatures that exist without any source of food to sustain their life... almost immortals = supernatural.

WoW world magic is not natural even for their world otherwise 100% population of people would be a mages, like in any anime with that type of world.

For reference the whole natural thing is about elemental and spirit and as per chronicles every thing on the planets is made up of the elements and all life is imbued with spirit so it is a 100% coverage.

[Ielenia]

Blizzard would disagree which as evident by them building there universe on magic and stating multiple time's that it's natural.

Except they literally never said it is, nor that the effects of magic are "natural", or "non-supernatural".

- - - Updated - - -

Azeroth according to Ielenia:

Everything is Supernatural

Triceron responding to me:

Let's misrepresent the argument

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except they literally never said it is, nor that the effects of magic are "natural", or "non-supernatural".

I mean they do literally say the elementals and there powers are natural on the legion page and in chronicles. chronicles also tells us how the universe came into being how it was all done by magic and then further how the planets all have the magical elementals and Spirit and how the balance of them shape the planets and how life works on them.

I mean at this point you have just devolved to saying “magic isn’t real, so Warcraft can’t work off magic”.

[Ielenia]

I mean they do literally say the elementals and there powers are natural on the legion page and in chronicles. chronicles also tells us how the universe came into being how it was all done by magic and then further how the planets all have the magical elementals and Spirit and how the balance of them shape the planets and how life works on them.

It doesn't change the fact magic is "supernatural" because its effects alter the natural state of things. I'll repeat, again:
• Trees don't naturally grow in seconds in a desert.
• Ice doesn't naturally form under the sun in a hot summer day.
• Fire doesn't naturally occur without something to burn.
• Water doesn't naturally flow up a hill.
And so many more "impossible" things magic does, like making a sunken ship float in mid-air, and teleport an entire tower.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It doesn't change the fact magic is "supernatural" because its effects alter the natural state of things. I'll repeat, again:
• Trees don't naturally grow in seconds in a desert.
• Ice doesn't naturally form under the sun in a hot summer day.
• Fire doesn't naturally occur without something to burn.
• Water doesn't naturally flow up a hill.
And so many more "impossible" things magic does, like making a sunken ship float in mid-air, and teleport an entire tower.

Man some one should probably tell blizzard magic isn’t real and they can’t base a universe off of it so they can retract all of Warcraft media and start over with out it being based off of magic then.

[TheRevenantHero]

But none of that says magic is "natural". Natural is what occurs normally, such as water freezing under high temperatures, tree saplings slowly growing on fertile soil, etc. "Supernatural" would be those things happening under impossible conditions, like water freezing while exposed to the summer sun, or a tree sapling growing in the middle of the desert, or ice catching on fire.

Which is what magic does. Magic is supernatural.

In reali life, you would be right. But since magic is incredibly common place it is, by definition, not supernatural.

[Triceron]

But it is true for WoW world.

real world has no magic = natural.

WoW world has a magic = supernatural.

WoW world has gigantic creatures that exist without any source of food to sustain their life... almost immortals = supernatural.

WoW world magic is not natural even for their world otherwise 100% population of people would be a mages, like in any anime with that type of world.

Right.

So the question is - what can actually be considered natural?

Because Blizzard themselves use the word to describe certain things in WoW, but if everything is sourced to 'magic' then do we just ignore everything that Blizzard calls natural? Like the natural elements?

Are we to assume that Blizzard themselves are wrong whenever they use the term 'natural' for anything regarding Azeroth?

[username993720]

If Blizzard were to make any moves towards bridging those concepts, like Beastmasters being Hunters, then yes, I would.

In fact they did so for Blademasters in the past and having a notable Blademaster as Warrior Trainer, as well as a Blademaster follower in WoD being Arms Warrior. So we had a connection in the game at one point, until all Trainers got removed. We haven't had any Blademaster and Warrior connections in lore since then. It remains ambiguous and up to interpretation.

Same as Nathanos being a Dark Ranger and having been a Hunter Trainer. That was definitely a connection, though it was eventually severed. The difference is that there exists evidence of Blizzard's connections between DR and Hunters well beyond Nathanos' history as a Hunter trainer.

As for my personal opinion? They should do these as Hero customizations for existing classes. A mix of customizations (Glyphs, Transmogs, visual Talents) and a Hero Talent Tree with gameplay options that better reflect Hero Class representation.

So, a Blademaster was a Warrior until it wasn't? You base your opinion on how things change in game, like dropping class trainers which had nothing to do with Blademasters or Dark Rangers?

If this thread isn't proof enough that there is a demand for it, then nothing will answer what the point would be.

How can they coexist?

Darkfallen are a race, why are you even talking about matching it with a spec? No one brought up Races matching specs.

But if you're asking what Hunter spec the Dark Ranger has been represented by, the closest thing we have is this from WoD.

https://www.wowhead.com/follower=453...anger-velonara

Dark Ranger Velonara
Marksmanship Hunter

Figured.
Unfortunately, the spec is already fulfilled by another race.
Is Blizzard going to introduce multiple races for a spec? Because that's not what they've been doing. Would they start reforming specs for all classes?
Besides, what kind of racials would you expect from a Darkfallen race? shadowy Banshee abilities? Vampiric blood ones? Because it heavily changes what the archetype is.

How accurate or vague were his predictions? Cuz vague predictions tend to get interpreted with hefty doses of confirmation bias. If we're talking about the dude who talked about 'Cataclysm 2.0' then that's vague as hell, because Cataclysm was about the Twilights Hammer and Old God shenanigans more than it was about the Dragonflights and their origins. If we're just talking about expansions that are similar to Dragonflight, then Wrath has similarities through Wyrmrest and the Tuskarr and travelling there by boat; or MoP is also similar for being a hidden continent shrouded by 'mists' that was lost to time.

Anyone can make a prediction, because predictions are merely opinions.

Basically, he claims Blizzard is dividing old expansion into 2:
WoD+Legion = TBC
BfA+Shadowlands = WotLK
Dragonflight+11.0 = Cataclysm
12.0+13.0 = MoP

Again, nothing about anything I've said is about possibility. I absolutely have agreed with you that possibility is not an issue, because Blizzard can literally do anything.

I am discussing about how realistic and plausible they would be with what we know of the story, and how it would work in the context of WoW moving forward.

Like with Teriz' own theory, he speculated that a Dragon-themed class capable of using all 5 Dragonflight powers would have to be Chromatic dragons. People could absolutely argue that Chromatics would not be playable or that the experiments were destroyed, or that they are purely villainous. And doesn't stop Blizzard from creating the Dracthyr. My point is that if we open a discussion on what is plausible, we know that Chromatics, specifically the Chromatic Dragonflight, wouldn't have been the ideal fit for a Dragon themed class, because they are either purely villainous/deranged or dead. The concept of a class that uses all 5 Dragonflight abilities and with gameplay loosely based on Heroes of the Storm Dragon characters would still be completely valid though. We simply haven't reached any plausible concept behind it yet. And with Dracthyr, now we have one.

You still have to specialize in 1 of 2 specs. And they crammed 2 dragonflights into a spec because of gampelay reasons obviously. There's no reason why chromatic and dream magic would go alongside each other, as well as red fire and blue magic. Even the Dracthyr colors are separated into the different Dragonflight colors. So, unless you you choose a mixed color, you're pretty much representing one Dragonflight.

I've literally been talking about how you never put forth any hypothesis at all during this entire conversation, and have been making a point that there is nothing to discuss if your argument is litereally 'Customizations are not Dark Ranger. It could totally still be a class' and I literally ask you 'How?'. You don't need to be a psychic to put forth a speculative theory.

The foundation is already there. You can't say there isn't enough to a Sylvanas based Dark Ranger in terms of class abilities. As for story, there's the whole Sylvanas redemption arc left hanging. Could bridge in Dark Rangers. What expansion would it be? Not sure.

If I recall, she was able to do this because of the Valkyr.

"The ritual will make you stronger," she answered. Her red eyes flared as she paced about the dais at the center of the immense circular chamber. "And with the Legion's incursions into Horde lands, I require my champion to be strong."

Nathanos turned his gaze from Sylvanas to the stoic Val'kyr hovering just behind her.
---
His wariness gave him pause. Had it been wise of the queen to conscript such creatures into her service after the Lich King's defeat? He quickly chided himself and pushed the doubt from his mind. The Val'kyr had proved their worth by raising new Forsaken to Sylvanas's cause. The Dark Lady knew best. Always.

So if we go with this theory, we would have to either assume she has access to new Valkyr. Unless you have another possible explanation how this ritual would be done, and how it could be framed in a way that the Night Elves in the Maw would even accept this fate, considering we know the fate of the Forsaken is one of pain and torment which they never really chose for themselves.

Remember how the Maw denizens are leaderless now that the Jailer is deactivated? Yes, Sylvanas has a tendency to recruit Undead that are free from a tyrant's control, like the Lich King's.
As for Val'kyr, voila: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Maw...Type_of_forces
Mawsworn Kyrian, already in the employment of Sylvanas as of Dark Abduction.

Which requires more explanations in order to make sense.

Sure, she could muster more followers. I'll completely accept that answer. But what followers? Are we talking about followers from the Maw who are going to willingly allow themselves to be turned into Forsaken or Darkfallen? Are we talking about introducing Lightbound Dark Rangers?

Maw followers. Those that are jobless now that the Jailer is gone. There are no Lightbound Undead. Calia looks just like any other preserved Undead. And she has nothing to do with Sylvanas.

As for my personal opinion, I remain unconvinced that would be the direction of the story. In my own interpretation, she is there with Anduin to seek forgiveness and redemption. It's about humbling her, and showing that she wasn't fit to be leader at all, though she can absolutely still have a part to play in the future. In my opinion, her story is a darker parallel of Thrall's; where both characters are taken out of leadership and not expected to return as leaders, while they still have roles to play in the larger story to come. As for 'followers', I personally don't see that happening since she literally killed the innocent Night Elves and is merely seeking their forgiveness, not their loyalty. It's quite a 'fuck you' to all Night Elf fans if they implied Night Elf civilian souls end up following under the Tyrant who killed them and sent them to the Maw just because she asked for forgiveness. The story for these Dark Rangers would be built around Stockholm syndrome.

There are more than just Night elves in the Maw.
She would be the one to save them (after sending them). It's not like their former Night elves would accept them as Undead. Most would likely go to Ardenweald. Some might decide to follow her lead.

And my question is not whether Sira Moonwarden would be released from prison. It has always been how she fits into this Dark Ranger concept, and whether you expect her to be redeemed and if so how.

She fits as a Dark Warden.
Redeemed? I don't know. But, like all evil characters turned good, she would aid her redeemed queen.

while sure it’s not clear where it comes from it’s not the elements which are natural and not arcane as they go out of there way to say unlike mages.

It is not from the Shadowlands. So, it must be from Northrend. And, as far as i know, the Frost in Northrend is natural.

"Amal'thazad was once a powerful frost mage who fought against the forces of the Lich King. Arthas Menethil, impressed with the mage's power, raised him into undeath as the lich. He became the death knight frost trainer. Amal'thazad is surrounded by a group of Disciples of Frost."

priest have a actual Necrolyte as part of there order hall they have a stronger connection then warlocks who just steal a weapon of one.

I agree that the Orc Necrolytes served as a dark counterpart to the Human Clerics back in Warcraft 1.
Their connection to the Affliction Warlock comes from their name: Necrolytes. They use Necromancy, which is a trait shared with Affliction Warlocks more than Shadow Priests.

you are aware that theses having nothing do with with Necrolyte’s ya? That most(Mabye all) are totally unlinked to legion either being added before or after it? That none of them have to do with necromancy?

"Necromancers are practitioners of necromancy (also called the dark arts or the black arts) the study and use of magic to raise and control the dead. Necromantic magic (or death magic) has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases, harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy (Shadow Bolt, a Warlock ability), and chill the living with the power of death (Death Coil, previously a Warlock ability)."

Like did you just go through the abilities and grab any thing with a death name or related to souls and just ignore the chronicles link saying they are a different group focusing on a different power that Gul’dan had to go to KJ to get help with?

They might be a different group than the Shadow Council, but they are still users of necromancy. Since they were not Death Knights, they were either Warlock or Priests. Now, Shadow Priests are capable of necromancy, as shown by Magister Umbric, but so are Fel users like the Warlock.

So you are right they were messing around with it at suamar.

Showing you Necromancy is as old as time. And was already integrated into the Legion way back.

undead can be infused with any thing they don’t need to be raised by it to be infused by it, see the fire, frost, light, blood, ect, undead in the scourge. Really the only type missing is lightning undead.

I didn't talk about infusion. I talked about raising. Only shown to be capable by Necromancy, Fel (Mannoroth), Void (Nerz'hul, Magister Umbric) and Light (Calia Menethil)

And haven’t we already gone over how plain text on wowpedia isn’t to be taken at face value? The citation for that quote is a tweet from a dev saying demons know how to raise undead it says nothing about them using fel to do so.

Demons are creatures of Fel. They integrated it into their magics, otherwise it wouldn't have necromantic properties:

"Many members of the Apothecary Society are warlocks or those who study demonic blood, which appears to have necromantic properties."

Oh also from the same dev in regard to your list of warlock ability’s.

Can i get some more context than just a mmo-champ quote design?

Shrug.. ok, so you could say a clan is a group of people united by kinship or lineage.
An organisation you could say is a group of people institution, or an association having a particular goal or purpose.

I guess there is a small difference there.. and in wow in all comes down to the same thing.. a group of people name tagged by the word clan, tribe, organisation or what ever. The san'layn could have had elven families there, does it matter? And was it kinship that brought them together as the san'layn? No not really they were formed by some one else. Against their will even you could say.

So without doing the whole circle thing and not really responding to what I said earlier, What did you not understand about the situation of Darkfallen?

Are they really a replacement for Dark Rangers?