Poll: Do you want Dark Rangers?

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  1. #901
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I literally not only explained but demonstrated how the effects of magic are not natural. If you look at, for example, the books about magic in Dalaran, you can see they describe how the effects of magic are not natural.
    Again all I can do is point you towards chronicles and the creation of The universe and all life within it. Because if you want to say the effects of Magic aren't Natural then nothing in all of warcraft is Natural as literally every thing exist from the effects of magic.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #902
    Just google "Magic"

    magic
    /ˈmadʒɪk/
    noun
    the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
    "suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open"
    adjective
    1.
    having or apparently having supernatural powers.
    "a magic wand"
    whole point of this word is to make things that naturally impossible to make
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2022-05-20 at 02:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    This is a question for you Tinker haters out there.
    I already know that Tinker is the most probable class for 10.0, so probable that's it's practically a certainty.
    Regardless, since many of you disagree, what then is the most realistic class to be added for 10.0.
    Try to be neutral about it, no biasis.Maybe this exercise will help you see the light.

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Just google "Magic"



    whole point of this word is to make things that naturally impossible to make
    Ya just like it’s impossible for light and void to clash and create a universe and then seed life in that universe, it’s almost like all of Warcraft is impossible or something.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Just google "Magic"



    whole point of this word is to make things that naturally impossible to make
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/supernatural

    "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."

    Magic in the Warcraft universe is NOT considered beyond what is natural.

  5. #905
    https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLostCo...85885309685762

    Well here is the music for.. so no intro music as many though.

  6. #906
    i voted no, why? because i can.

    Tired of seeing mostly elves reskins on both sides on my server.

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    how would we know it’s not from shadowlands? Bolvar got control over frost from the helm of domination which was connected to the shadowlands he then losses said power when the helm is removed.
    Because there is no frost zone in the Shadowlands.

    blizzard has already said they are unlike mages so they aren’t using mage frost and Amal’thazad and a few other Quest givers calls what he teaches a dark art.
    Looking at the Frost Mage, we have Bone Chilling with an image of a skull, Chilled to the Bone with the same image, and Frostbite with another skeletal image.

    The word Necro has nothing to do with warlocks, blizzard went out of there way to separate the two groups and the closest you can say the two come into play is when warlocks were outlawed in the horde so Gul’dan used his dead warlock souls to make DK’s gave them necromantic powers instead of fel.
    It acctually does, because necromancy is more than just raising the dead. It's absorbing the lifeforce of another being and spreading diseases and decay.

    I can only assume your quoting this just because it say's shadow bolt in it?

    Here's how warlocks function according to legion, they don't use death magic, don't deal with actual diseases, don't deal with necromancy.
    Do you read what you send to the very end?

    "Affliction warlocks are masters of shadow-touched powers, but unlike shadow priests—deadliest when pushed to the brink of insanity—these warlocks delight in using fel forces to cause intense pain and suffering in others. They revel in corrupting minds and agonizing souls, leaving enemies in a state of torment that would see them undone in due time. Even the most battle-hardened warriors can be deceived, landing blow after blow against the warlock, only to succumb to their suffering as their very vitality is siphoned away by the dark spellcaster." - that's an aspect of necromancy, shared by Forsaken and Dark Rangers.

    there Necrolytes's not warlock or priest blizzard went out of there way to make them a sperate group with a separate origin and separate power source.

    Unless of course you want to say all groups must fall into the ingame classes in which case dark rangers would of course be hunters.
    So, they aren't represented?

    You Literally were talking about infustion.
    To show you it was Fel that raised them.

    again stop reading Plain text on wowpeida with no citation's and taking it at face value.
    You don't believe it?

    There really isn't further context as what the dev was replying to was delated so it's just the same quote in a tweet.
    Okay. And i explained to you that i wasn't talking about souls. I was talking about life draining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Stop circling dude and instead response to what was said.

    You make no sense what ever
    You asked me what i didn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I base my interpretation on how Blizzard chooses to represent these identities themselves through the game. Right now, it remains ambiguous.

    You asked me if Blademasters were Warriors. If Blizzard took a move towards making that happen, then they would be. I presented evidence of cases where Blademasters could be interpreted as Warriors. Right now, it still remains ambiguous. The fact that they keep it ambiguous means I regard it as being ambiguous.

    There was no evidence of Blademasters formally joining the ranks of the Warrior order; and even then the Warrior organization seems to be one of the loosest of all Order halls.
    You base everything on class halls?

    The same way Dark skinned Dwarf customizations and their options to play as Mage and Warlock classes (which were added to represent Dark Irons in the first place) exists alongside an actual Dark Iron Dwarf allied race.
    Hardly. It says the Bronzebeard dwarves might have learned from them, not that they are them.

    What does that even mean?

    Please tell me, what single race represents Fury spec? What single race represents Arms spec? This seems like a completely arbitrary value you're equating to specs. I'm calling bullshit on this.
    Dwarf (Mountain King) and Tauren (Chieftain).
    Count the number of races and see if they outnumber specs.

    Then that is vague as fuck and could be up to complete interpretation. What expansion concept would you say has nothing to do with Cataclysm? Cataclysm covered so many topics that you could connect it back to every existing expansion, and every future one as well.

    If we're talking about 11.0 and all the possibilities, Cataclysm could easily be connected to Time Travel, the Emerald Dream, to Old Gods, to Azshara, to Light vs Void etc. Like, honestly I could connect any current expansion back to being a Cataclysm 2.0 too if we're playing with vague connections, especially if you're implying BFA has anything to do with being a Wrath 2.0

    And overall, the guy had zero predictions on future class, which is the topic here. Not what vague connections a future expansion could have to Cataclysm (which literally can be anything).
    He claims it will be about the elements.

    Yes, and gameplay reasons like this were predicted and speculated on in depth, with the only difference being in which colors were matched with others. The concept of pairing two or more dragonflight themes into one spec was absolutely accepted into Dragonsworn concepts though, and you can see literal examples of this in multiple Dragonsworn fan class concepts.

    Through discussion, the idea of having 2+ dragonflights being represented in one spec was normalized and well accepted among people who were actively discussing the concept. It was more widely accepted than fan concepts that had 3-5 specs representing individual dragonflights.
    "Each dragonflight treats its dragonsworn differently, and grants them slightly different boons for their service."

    "It’s possible for a servant to dedicate his life to a flight without any real notice or recognition — especially for the shorter-lived races, such as humans."

    The RPG lore talks about pledging loyalty and serving one Dragonflight.

    I did not say there isn't enough.

    I was making arguments for a standalone Dark Ranger class and argued that they could easily exist alongside Hunters and other classes as recently as 2018. My opinion has since changed with how Blizzard themselves have regarded Dark Ranger as an broad identity rather than a clearly ambiguous one that had room to be expanded into its own class, as well as passing them over when the idea Setting and Story presented itself. Its chances to be a standalone class in the future dimished significantly, to the point where I no longer believe Blizzard is interested in taking all the gameplay and story concepts for a standalone class and making it real.

    Everything has been pointing at them being a much broader identity that merely represents Darkfallen Hunters. I mean as we're edging closer and closer to 9.2.5, the evidence continues to grow in this direction. Interviews openly talking about customizations instead of denying them outright. Datamines of quests involving Dark Rangers. Hell even in the last page here, someone posted Texture updates for Dark Rangers like Delaryn Summermoon with red eyes; tweaks they haven't done since 8.1. It shows that these characters are coming back in 9.2.5 in some form; that they have a part to play somehow. So with all this information, what reason do I have to expect a standalone class?

    I personally have no reason to expect a Dark Ranger as a standalone class, therefore I do not have the same hangups that you do when discussing them as potentially being anything else. That doesn't mean I don't maintain a *low chance* that they could still be their own class. Cuz otherwise, what do you see of all the talk and evidence by Blizzard about Dark Rangers being customizations and the datamines of 9.2.5? You really think they're not doing anything here?
    And as a spec?
    You say Dark Ranger would be a customization option, but what Wardens or Night Warriors. Would they, too? And i'm not talking eye color. I'm talking gameplay.

    So are you talking about playable Dark Rangers all being Mawsworn?
    No, i'm saying she can use them to replace her Val'kyr.

    How would that happen. Like, is there literally zero reason for her turning good? We just assume it because it's possible?

    Because I could say:

    'But, like all evil characters who remain evil, she will become a raid or dungeon bosses and get killed off'. There's nobreason for me to assume she would turn good. Every evil character turned good had a reason to do so, and I've been asking for any indication or theory for that happening. Otherwise, an evil character remains evil.

    This 'what if' goes both ways, and you already know where I stand when discussing Sira Moonwarden. I'm open to discussing other possibilities, but you literally can't even give me a hypothesis to discuss. You literally don't know how it could even happen. I'm not what you expect other people think when you can't even present a theory for how it would actually work.

    For example:
    "We could have a Starcraft themed expansion. How? I don't know. But it would work"

    Would you be convinced? Would you consider this legitimately discussable? To me, there is nothing to plausibly discuss, because it doesn't present what it means or how it works. There is no speculation being presented here, just very vague concept left to anyone's interpretation.
    Could happen as well.
    You know what? I'll be more happy if she does turn into a raid boss. Doesn't nullify the option of Wardens, just like Arthas and Illidan didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/supernatural

    "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."

    Magic in the Warcraft universe is NOT considered beyond what is natural.
    Of course it is. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called magic.
    You still have science alongside it.

  8. #908
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Because there is no frost zone in the Shadowlands.
    I mean the shadowlands are infinite so there absolutely is one not to mention the Maw where the helm comes from has Frost in it so it could come directly from there.

    Looking at the Frost Mage, we have Bone Chilling with an image of a skull, Chilled to the Bone with the same image, and Frostbite with another skeletal image.
    so you think the lichking and all those under him are using arcane even though blizzard says they are unlike mages and call it a dark art and various other things that they never apply to arcane/mages?



    It acctually does, because necromancy is more than just raising the dead. It's absorbing the lifeforce of another being and spreading diseases and decay.


    Do you read what you send to the very end?

    "Affliction warlocks are masters of shadow-touched powers, but unlike shadow priests—deadliest when pushed to the brink of insanity—these warlocks delight in using fel forces to cause intense pain and suffering in others. They revel in corrupting minds and agonizing souls, leaving enemies in a state of torment that would see them undone in due time. Even the most battle-hardened warriors can be deceived, landing blow after blow against the warlock, only to succumb to their suffering as their very vitality is siphoned away by the dark spellcaster." - that's an aspect of necromancy, shared by Forsaken and Dark Rangers.
    Necromancy/death magic isn’t the only power that can Siphon life Fel does it all the time in the legion Void does it, even nature magics can do it, Siphoning life doesn’t something necromantic.



    So, they aren't represented?
    in the classes? No the closest they come is that single priest in legion all the warlocks do is steal a dead ones weapon which doesn’t suddenly change the class they represent.


    To show you it was Fel that raised them.
    A skeleton infused by X doesn’t show they were raised by X which is why I pointed out we have skeletons/undead infused by literally every thing in the scourge but they were all raised by necromancy.



    You don't believe it?
    If I did would we be having this back and forth?



    Okay. And i explained to you that i wasn't talking about souls. I was talking about life draining.
    and then you linked about of warlocks ability’s other then drain life including multiple about souls.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post

    You asked me what i didn't understand.
    Great! Then you should know now that the san layn are an organisation same as dark rangers and that they are not a class at this point. Any further talks comes down to speculation and wishfull thinking which you found new people to circle debate with. Good for you
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-20 at 01:29 PM.

  10. #910
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I literally pointed out twice that your argument implies nothing in Azeroth is Natural.
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Are you just refusing to read everything I'm saying. IN THE WARCRAFT WORLD IT IS NOT CONSIDERED SUPERNATURAL. Stop fucking using real world mentalities when talking about a fantasy world.
    In your opinion. In mine, 'natural' is what occurs naturally, like water flowing down a river, trees slowly growing on fertile soil, and ice melting under the heat of the sun, whereas 'unnatural' would be things like water flowing up a hill, trees growing in seconds in the arid desert, ice forming under the sun during summer, and rain happening indoors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Again all I can do is point you towards chronicles and the creation of The universe and all life within it. Because if you want to say the effects of Magic aren't Natural then nothing in all of warcraft is Natural as literally every thing exist from the effects of magic.
    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You base everything on class halls?
    One of many things, yes. It is official lore.

    Are you implying they should be ignored?

    Hardly. It says the Bronzebeard dwarves might have learned from them, not that they are them.
    Yeah no where was that ever explained in the lore. At all.

    If you're getting your information from WoWpedia on this, you need to regard the GIANT QUESTION MARK denoting speculation and opinion.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mage_races

    Dwarf (Mountain King) and Tauren (Chieftain).
    Count the number of races and see if they outnumber specs.
    So Varian is a Mountain King and Chieftain because he uses both specs? Saurfang is a Mountain King when he fights Sylvanas while dual wielding?

    Specs do not take up a single race-combo identity. You're pushing confirmation bias as an argument. I mean, Night Elves just as easily represent all Druid specs as they do Demon Hunters. And what spec do Mechagnomes represent?

    He claims it will be about the elements.
    He wildly speculates that it will be about the elements.

    Consider that there will be elemental protodrakes featured in Dragon Isles too, we seen the concept art. They are literally reframing Proto Dragons as being evolved from Elementals.

    https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...756801/photo/1

    "Each dragonflight treats its dragonsworn differently, and grants them slightly different boons for their service."

    "It’s possible for a servant to dedicate his life to a flight without any real notice or recognition — especially for the shorter-lived races, such as humans."

    The RPG lore talks about pledging loyalty and serving one Dragonflight.
    Which Blizzard could change the definition of any time, considering the RPG is not canonized, right?

    They changed the Shado-pan from how they were depicted in the RPG too.

    And as a spec?
    You say Dark Ranger would be a customization option, but what Wardens or Night Warriors. Would they, too? And i'm not talking eye color. I'm talking gameplay.
    Night Warriors are already a customization since 8.1.

    What else do you need from em?

    No, i'm saying she can use them to replace her Val'kyr.
    Mawsworn do not have Val'kyr, they have Mawsworn Kyrian who are not the same thing and do not have the same powers as a Val'kyr do.

    Only Valk'yr were able to raise Forsaken, that is why they were so special. And they're all gone now.

    Could happen as well.
    You know what? I'll be more happy if she does turn into a raid boss. Doesn't nullify the option of Wardens, just like Arthas and Illidan didn't.
    Then how would Dark Rangers be connected to Wardens at all? She was the only one raised, and if she stays evil, there is no reason to imply any connection between how Dark Rangers gain a whole spec based off her. No other Dark Warden was ever raised, nor is there any suggestion that there would be.

    She did not train any Dark Rangers how to use Warden abilities during the time she served Sylvanas. So are you implying more wardens will die in the future?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-20 at 09:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #912
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    It’s not a misrepresentation it’s the only conclusion of your argument.

    If the effects of magic aren’t natural then the universe isn’t natural as it was created by the effect of light and void clashing, life in the universe isn’t natural as it was created by the effect of shards of light flying through the great dark, Organic life isn’t natural as it was spawned by the effect of Spirit on the elements.

    Every thing in all of Warcraft is a by product of the effects of magic as laid out in chronicles so if your argument is that said effects aren’t natural nothing at all is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Consider that there will be elemental protodrakes featured in Dragon Isles too, we seen the concept art. They are literally reframing Proto Dragons as being evolved from Elementals.
    they actually did that reframing a while back in chronicles where it says protodrakes and other organic life comes from a mix of Spirit and the elements that weren’t locked in the elemental plains.

    Dragon flight will just be the first time we see them beyond the mention in chronicles.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #913
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s not a misrepresentation it’s the only conclusion of your argument.
    False. It's the "only conclusion" to your misrepresentation of my argument, you mean.

    I literally explained and demonstrated the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' yet you keep ignoring everything for the benefit of your misrepresentation of my argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  14. #914
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. It's the "only conclusion" to your misrepresentation of my argument, you mean.

    I literally explained and demonstrated the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' yet you keep ignoring everything for the benefit of your misrepresentation of my argument.
    So the universe wasn't created by light and void clashing? Life wasn't seeded in said universe by shards of light flying through the great dark? Organic life wasn't a byproduct of the element's and Spirit mixing?

    every thing they tell us in chronicles is just wrong?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.
    But you won't touch on how to define anything being Natural when the entire universe and all life on the planet itself is sourced to being created by magic?

    If everything on Azeroth was sourced from magical creation, all life including those of plants and trees being of the domain of the cosmic power of Life, then do you still consider that Natural?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.

    - - - Updated - - -


    In your opinion. In mine, 'natural' is what occurs naturally, like water flowing down a river, trees slowly growing on fertile soil, and ice melting under the heat of the sun, whereas 'unnatural' would be things like water flowing up a hill, trees growing in seconds in the arid desert, ice forming under the sun during summer, and rain happening indoors.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    Ok well your opinion on the matter is objectively wrong especially since even Blizzard considers it to be normal. But heavens forbid you ever admit you're wrong.

  17. #917
    I would prefer Dark Rangers to regular hunters tbh

    We need a second class with bows.

  18. #918
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So the universe wasn't created by light and void clashing? Life wasn't seeded in said universe by shards of light flying through the great dark? Organic life wasn't a byproduct of the element's and Spirit mixing?

    every thing they tell us in chronicles is just wrong?
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But you won't touch on how to define anything being Natural when the entire universe and all life on the planet itself is sourced to being created by magic?
    Like I said to the other poster: I'm not talking about the creation of the universe. Not to mention you're purposely avoiding my explanations and examples to make your case, here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Ok well your opinion on the matter is objectively wrong especially since even Blizzard considers it to be normal.
    You misspelled "subjectively" there. Just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  19. #919
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.
    Your not talking about it sure sure, so let me ask you directly then.

    Is the creation of the universe or the seeding of life both elemental and organic in warcraft natural? is the water natural? is the sun on a summer day? is fire or the plant that doesn't grow in the desrt?
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-05-21 at 05:38 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Like I said to the other poster: I'm not talking about the creation of the universe. Not to mention you're purposely avoiding my explanations and examples to make your case, here.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You misspelled "subjectively" there. Just saying.
    No. I used the right word. You are actually objectively wrong. Again, even Blizzard classifies magic and its effects as being normal within the Warcraft universe. You keep trying to say it's not normal because in real life views. Pretty much everything in the Warcraft universe is based on magic. Are you saying Blizzard is wrong too?

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