Dark Ranger Customizations (Coming in 9.2.5)!!!

[Ielenia]

Indeed it did as it was brought by the legion, orcs, and even the Titans.

How do you know that? Do you have a link for that? Maldraxxus might be the "birthplace" of necromancy, but nothing says it couldn't 'move' on its own to other locations.

Also, arcane magic technically also isn't "natural" to a planet, as it needs a nascent Titan for it. Not to mention you don't know the "birthplace" of the other magic type.

Also, magic being "native" to the planet doesn't make it "not supernatural", either. Something is classified as "supernatural" if said something "defies the laws of nature", which all magic does. A tree doesn't naturally grow to its full adulthood in a matter of minutes. Fire doesn't spontaneously appears. Ice cannot form naturally in hot temperatures.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

How do you know that? Do you have a link for that? Maldraxxus might be the "birthplace" of necromancy, but nothing says it couldn't 'move' on its own to other locations.

Also, arcane magic technically also isn't "natural" to a planet, as it needs a nascent Titan for it. Not to mention you don't know the "birthplace" of the other magic type.

Nothing says it can move on its own to other locations, if you want to argue that it can you need to support it not ask me to prove an absence of lore.

And while he’s Arcane isn’t natural to all planets it is Natural to one’s with world souls with Azeroth is. Elemental magic is also birthed by the elementals (see chronicles) and nature magic I believe is birthed from Spirit but I don’t feel like checking that at the moment.

Also I got curious and checked the shaman page to compare with the DK one and it notably says this as well as mentioning how the powers are nature/natural a few other times when going over the specs which obviously stands at odds with the DK’s being singled out as super natural.

For millennia, since the primitive tribal cultures of Azeroth and Draenor, the natural elements of the physical universe have been celebrated, feared, and even worshipped. Mystics sought communion with the earth, air, fire, and water, and learned to tap into their raw power. In time, these spiritual guides came to understand that nature’s elemental forces aren’t wholly benevolent, but have, in fact, been locked in an unending conflict of chaos and primal fury that once consumed the physical realm. So began the calling of the Shaman, to bring balance to these volatile energies, leveraging their intensity to mend wounds . . . or inflict them.

[HotSauce]

cuz blizz is 2 busy raping their employees. next question

[Ielenia]

And while he’s Arcane isn’t natural to all planets it is Natural to one’s with world souls with Azeroth is. Elemental magic is also birthed by the elementals (see chronicles) and nature magic I believe is birthed from Spirit but I don’t feel like checking that at the moment.

But the Arcane doesn't come from the planet. It comes from the gestating Titan inside said planet.

Also, there is this that I mentioned:

Also, magic being "native" to the planet doesn't make it "not supernatural", either. Something is classified as "supernatural" if said something "defies the laws of nature", which all magic does. A tree doesn't naturally grow to its full adulthood in a matter of minutes. Fire doesn't spontaneously appears. Ice cannot form naturally in hot temperatures.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But the Arcane doesn't come from the planet. It comes from the gestating Titan inside said planet.

Also, there is this that I mentioned:

I mean the Titan and the Planet are the same thing, as Mangi say's in Bfa if the world soul die's so does the Planet.

And as far as the law's of Nature go In warcraft those law's are written but the Elementals and nature Spirits and as the Shaman page say's they are Natural.

[wowrefugee]

Unsure if I'm allowed to copy my post here, but it's fitting:

Sorry if I'm late on this.

Looks like Delaryn Summermoon is making a comeback in 9.2.5. She's one of the night elves raised by valkyr in Battle for Darkshore as a dark ranger, and then later seen in Tirisfal with Calia as she leads them to where ever.

Her texture was updated from 8.1 to 9.2.5.

8.1 Texture


9.2.5 Texture


The only difference is the red eye glow in/around the eye socket.


Edit: Kitala Starshadow - a dark ranger who is also present when Calia goes to Tirisfal- is in 9.2.5 as well.
And while I don't have the knowledge to know why, this is a new texture instead of updating her previous one.

[Ielenia]

I mean the Titan and the Planet are the same thing, as Mangi say's in Bfa if the world soul die's so does the Planet.

And as far as the law's of Nature go In warcraft those law's are written but the Elementals and nature Spirits and as the Shaman page say's they are Natural.

The elementals and the spirits may be natural, but that doesn't mean magic itself is natural.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The elementals and the spirits may be natural, but that doesn't mean magic itself is natural.

The magic come's directly from them simply existing just like arcane and azeroth it's natural.

but I think were just starting to go in a circle which is kinda a moot point when The shaman page say's its all natural the DK one say's its super Nature, the two magic's aren't treated the same when it come's to what's natural and what isn't.

[Ielenia]

The magic come's directly from them simply existing just like arcane and azeroth it's natural.

I don't think it comes "directly" from them.

But even if it did, it doesn't change what I said earlier:

Also, magic being "native" to the planet doesn't make it "not supernatural", either. Something is classified as "supernatural" if said something "defies the laws of nature", which all magic does. A tree doesn't naturally grow to its full adulthood in a matter of minutes. Fire doesn't spontaneously appears. Ice cannot form naturally in hot temperatures.

[shoc]

I am glad the poll is overwhelmingly opposed to Dark Rangers, there's hope for the WoW community after all

The fact that we don't have Dark Rangers means the developers are listening to what the community wants.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think it comes "directly" from them.

But even if it did, it doesn't change what I said earlier:

Have you ever done one of the classic shaman quest where you get a totem? The magic comes directly from elementals them selfs Imbuing them with there natural powers, Shamans work the same way as the quote from the shaman page indicates.

And as I said earlier (this really is a circle now) the laws of nature are written by the elementals and the nature spirits, you can say something is super natural by our real world standards but in Warcraft it’s all perfectly natural as the shaman pages points out unlike DK’s where it’s notably stated to be super natural.

[username993720]

Why? There's no point in that since no one is arguing that a race replaces classes.

Darkfallen aren't replacing Dark Hunters. But Darkfallen Hunter would be a fine representative for Dark Rangers. If Blizzard wanted to make a Dark Ranger class down the line, they could do that as well. We've been through this before, and all you're doing is riding technicalities to illustrate points that don't really get in the way of any future class.

Then Night elf Rogues are Wardens.
Night elf Hunters are Priestesses of the Moon.
Orc Warriors are Blademasters.
Troll Shamans are Shadow Hunters.
Goblin Engineers are Tinkers.
Would you say that is right?

I never claimed it would replace it?

I said Blizzard had no interest in making a Dark Ranger class. This is supported by the fact that we had a Shadowlands expansion, and no Dark Ranger class, all while they have an Evoker class planned for 10.0 which shows that they aren't secretly planning some Dark Ranger Class within the near future. I didn't say they will never have an interest in making a Dark Ranger Class in the future.

Concerning Darkfallen Hunter, all I can say is if they plan on making Dark Ranger customization options, it would greatly diminish the future chances of a standalone Dark Ranger class.

Do I consider a Beastmastery Hunter, Fire spec Mage and Fury Warrior a replacement for Beastmaster, Blood Mage and Mountain King standalone class? No, I do not. But the chances of Blizzard making them into standalone classes would be quite low considering the amount of representation that already exists. If Blizzard intends to complete their identities, then customizations are the most sensible option.

I said Blizzard showed no intention of a Dark Ranger class with what we know of the story so far. I never said Blizzard will never add new Dark Ranger story to allow a new class in the future. Just like I don't discount Blizzard making any class in the future; literally anything is possible. Even if I think a Fire and Arcane spellcaster would be unlikely since we already have a Mage, I would still leave room open to consider the possibility, which is exactly I never dismissed any of the rumors of the Evoker and remained open to its speculation. I don't discount possibilities.

What's the point of a Dark Ranger class and a Hunter customization options?
It's like having a Wildhammer race while also retaining the Bronzebeard customizations. Unlikely.

But you asked me if I know.

Would it be honest of me to say "I know because they didn't stop at allied Races"? No, because there's no way I would actually know what Blizzard plans for the future. For all I know, BFA could be the only time Allied Races ever got added to the game. I really have no insight into the situation other than speculating that we are very likely getting a pre-Dragon Isles Allied Race in the near future, because we literally have leaks indicating this happening. And it seems to be a singular Allied Race, so no one really knows what it would be yet.

Even the Dracthyr uses a pre-existing skeleton. That's the new format they're using and it seem to be working for them. So, i don't think they'll just ditch it.

Would you agree if I said they could fold more class concepts into existing Classes in the future?

No. Because they don't just fold concepts into existing classes. They exist the moment a class is created. And the Hunter is already covered.

Because that's all that you're pointing out here. I cut out the last bits because you purely speculated on why it wouldn't happen for Dark Ranger, but I want to illustrate the point that it still could happen despite all your personal concerns.

Again, I'm not the one designing Dark Rangers or controlling their gameplay representation or lore. We're talking about Blizzard doing this. Blizzard are the ones handing out Sylvanas' unique abilities to Hunters through a Legendary weapon, providing Dark Ranger transmog gear (Hood from BFA quest), blatantly addressing Dark Rangers customizations as being possible in an interview, and have datamined 9.2.5 content that relates to Darkfallen and a Dark Ranger Hunter questline. The speculation is only regarding it *could* be customizations, while the rest of what we have here already shows you that Blizzard isn't only intent on representing Dark Ranger through a single Hunter spec; they regard the Hunter as a whole as being capable of adopting Dark Ranger looks, abilities and lore.

Darkfallen would inevitably match a particular spec. And that spec will supposedly represent the Dark Ranger. Therefore, you need to pinpoint to me which one it is.

Check yourself. You know how to use google right? WoWhead has all the datamine information you need.

If you even want a synopsis, I linked a video by MrGM just yesterday. He covers a lot of the speculation I've been talking about.

Right now, all we know is 'The Forsaken are mustering in Tirsfal Glades and Calia is up to something. Take this disguise and spy on her'.

Sounds very Dark Ranger, indeed.

Nor would anyone being realistic. There's no way to predict anything 3 expansions away, the direction of the game changes significantly from expansion to expansion and there's no way to realistically predict anything 3 expansions away. What happens in 3 expansions down the line is really anyone's guess, if we even make it that far. I mean, by then Microsoft would have taken complete ownership so who knows what's gonna happen.

All we could do is wildly guess. And a wild guess is not an accurate way to predict anything. We might as well slap Class names on a D20 and roll to see what comes up in the future. So I think it's fair to say predicting something that far into the future isn't going to be fruitful discussion.

Well, there was a guy who predicted Shadowlands, Dragonflight, 11.00, 12.00 and 13.00.

Just saying 'They linked X to Y' is not a theory. As I said, there's nothing to discuss.

You haven't framed how any of this is possible, how it ties to a potential future expansion story and setting, how it all works out.

Possibility is not an issue as Blizzard come up with new lore all the time (Example: Dracthyr Evoker).
Did i link to you my ancient Kalimdor expansion concept thread? It is a heavily-elf themed expansion. Other than that, who knows. Blizzard can come up with their own idea.

Like are we talking about Dark Rangers in another Death expansion? Well that's unlikely. Are you fitting them into Shadow vs Light? Well, for what reasons then? Are we fitting Dark Rangers into a Void expansion and implying their powers are Void now? That's what I'm looking for. Tangible reasons for how and why they would be playable.

What makes the most sense is for them to be introduced in an expansion that matches their theme. A shadowy expansion i guess.

Because otherwise, just saying 'They would have Mind Control' is not a convincing theory for how the class would realistically become playable.

Abilities have nothing to do with their introduction. It's for showing you the concept has a tangible amount of foundation.

I never said it was.

That you think 'unlikely' means 'the end' is your problem, not mine. In English, these two words are not synonymous.

And why would they be unlikely?

This is much closer to what I'm looking for.

Yes, we can expect Anduin and Sylvanas to both return to the story. So how and why would she suddenly introduce Dark Rangers? Are you implying then that all the Dark Rangers we have playable are going to be directly be lost souls of the Maw? Are her loyalists going to pop out of hiding and suddenly embrace her as a new leader even though she's a changed person? And how does Sira Moonwarden fit into this, do you expect her to somehow be redeemed too?

Let's discuss. We can start with the questions I have here for now.

You're asking me like i'm some kind of psychic. I don't know. I can only hypothesize.
She would introduce the Dark Ranger to fight the big threat of an expansion.
Maybe. She could collect the souls somehow and imbue them into bodies, like she sort of did with Nathanos.
No one said her followers will be relevant. Maybe she's mustering up a new group of followers.
I expect Sira Moonwarden to be released from prison, because there's no story reason to leave her in jail for all eternity.

Uhm.. I dont think you get it.

Darkfallen is the race and they are split into two groups.
Dark rangers and san layn. They are both organisations in that sense. Nothing is being said of the dark ranger class as they are NOT a class in this context.

A Dark ranger is also not a playable class at this point and will likely not happen either in 9.2.5. No, It doesnt have to be like you said the san 'layn are also not associated with one class either. If we understand blizz right then, the dark rangers are just how they call this group of elite undead rangers. Do I think it could be expanded to an actuall class? Yes, do I see it happening? No, not anymore after this.

Would you say the Mag'har clans are organizations?
Or the Dwarf clans?

You're straw-manning. I never said that MMO champion was the center of all things WC, I simply said that the poll was evidence of players believing that Tinkers and Dragon-class were the most likely next classes.

But, it isn't a representative site, is it?
It's a fansite with no more than a couple of hundrends of votes.

That would appear to be the case.

So the nonesens about it triumphing other concepts is bullshit. There was no other class to match the expansion.

I would consider her easily taking down a much larger and powerful Orc (Saurfang) with agility and precision to be a version of tanking. You could also say her wiping out several Alliance soldiers in the Battle of Lordaeran cinematic to be another example of Dark Ranger tanking.

And of course her cinematic fights with Bolvar and Tyrande.

Would you consider a Subtlety Rogue a Tank? Or a Marksmanship Hunter?

The point is that Blizzard had a potential layup for a Dark Ranger class, and they didn't take it, choosing instead to give those abilities to Hunters. That makes Dark Ranger customization option (also limited to Hunters) a high possibility. They're almost assuredly not doing a Dark Ranger class.

And what makes you think they had one and gave it up? Maybe it was never considered for this period of time. Maybe it is saved for a much later date.
For the meantime, to not make players upset, they're introducing temporary solutions like the Warlock's Metamorphosis.

Leakers predicted Shadowlands back in July 2019. We here at MMOC predicted a Dragon Isles-based expansion for several months. There's nothing special about this guy predicting expansions.

Shadowlands was announced in 2019. There's nothing special about predicting an expansion a few months in advance.
Predicted... like there wasn't the whole Dragon Isles tease by Wrathion in BfA.
This guy is predicting several expansions in advance.
I predicted a Dragon themed expansion the moment the Shadowlands cinematic launched.

the frost magic from the lich king isn’t naturally occurring like elemental magic is.

From the frost Dk page, we already eablished earlier that they use the same magic as lich’s.

Well, it isn't clear what kind of frost magic it is.
Supernatural can mean all sorts of things, like Arcane.

mages turn into skeletons in shadowlands so they do have necromantic abilities, but that’s besides the point you pointed to warlocks having secrets from necromancers and so do the mages

Everyone gets a necromantic spell in Shadowlands. That' part of the Necrolord covenant.
Meanwhile, only Warlocks were associated with necrolytes during Legion's Artifact weapons.

nothing supports warlocks becoming Necrolyte’s all they do is use a weapon of a dead one and using some one else’s weapon doesn’t change a characters class/magic type, see Dorian, Baine, warglaives of azzinoth ect, for other examples.

The founding to the Necrolyte’s https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Ppi6CQrMnH...W3b7sdpA=s1600

A page after warlocks founding the shadow council, they are a separate group from the warlocks.

Nothing?
Drain Soul, Siphon Life, Haunt, Creeping Death, Deathbolt, Essence Drain, Rampant Afflictions, Rapid Contagion, Rot and Decay, Drain Life?

Because The demons were using Fel on Azeroth thousands of years before they brought over necromancy and they were still draining life from people/things using Fel.

Actually, when the Legion first appeared on Azeroth, in War of the Ancients, the Dreadlords were experimenting with Death at Suramar. It is likely that they were the ones who introduced necromancy to the Legion.

Demons know how to use necromancy, they taught the orcs it, infused the lichking with it, and so on, they don’t Fel to raise the dead.

They don't?
Because those bony creatures are infused with fel. Only one of them is a Demon.

"It can also be used to breathe life into constructs such as infernals, or in a necromantic way by resurrecting demons as undead."

[Triceron]

Then Night elf Rogues are Wardens.
Night elf Hunters are Priestesses of the Moon.
Orc Warriors are Blademasters.
Troll Shamans are Shadow Hunters.
Goblin Engineers are Tinkers.
Would you say that is right?

If Blizzard were to make any moves towards bridging those concepts, like Beastmasters being Hunters, then yes, I would.

In fact they did so for Blademasters in the past and having a notable Blademaster as Warrior Trainer, as well as a Blademaster follower in WoD being Arms Warrior. So we had a connection in the game at one point, until all Trainers got removed. We haven't had any Blademaster and Warrior connections in lore since then. It remains ambiguous and up to interpretation.

Same as Nathanos being a Dark Ranger and having been a Hunter Trainer. That was definitely a connection, though it was eventually severed. The difference is that there exists evidence of Blizzard's connections between DR and Hunters well beyond Nathanos' history as a Hunter trainer.

As for my personal opinion? They should do these as Hero customizations for existing classes. A mix of customizations (Glyphs, Transmogs, visual Talents) and a Hero Talent Tree with gameplay options that better reflect Hero Class representation.

What's the point of a Dark Ranger class and a Hunter customization options?

If this thread isn't proof enough that there is a demand for it, then nothing will answer what the point would be.

Darkfallen would inevitably match a particular spec. And that spec will supposedly represent the Dark Ranger. Therefore, you need to pinpoint to me which one it is.

Darkfallen are a race, why are you even talking about matching it with a spec? No one brought up Races matching specs.

But if you're asking what Hunter spec the Dark Ranger has been represented by, the closest thing we have is this from WoD.

https://www.wowhead.com/follower=453...anger-velonara

Dark Ranger Velonara
Marksmanship Hunter

Well, there was a guy who predicted Shadowlands, Dragonflight, 11.00, 12.00 and 13.00.

How accurate or vague were his predictions? Cuz vague predictions tend to get interpreted with hefty doses of confirmation bias. If we're talking about the dude who talked about 'Cataclysm 2.0' then that's vague as hell, because Cataclysm was about the Twilights Hammer and Old God shenanigans more than it was about the Dragonflights and their origins. If we're just talking about expansions that are similar to Dragonflight, then Wrath has similarities through Wyrmrest and the Tuskarr and travelling there by boat; or MoP is also similar for being a hidden continent shrouded by 'mists' that was lost to time.

Anyone can make a prediction, because predictions are merely opinions.

Possibility is not an issue as Blizzard come up with new lore all the time (Example: Dracthyr Evoker).
Did i link to you my ancient Kalimdor expansion concept thread? It is a heavily-elf themed expansion. Other than that, who knows. Blizzard can come up with their own idea.

Again, nothing about anything I've said is about possibility. I absolutely have agreed with you that possibility is not an issue, because Blizzard can literally do anything.

I am discussing about how realistic and plausible they would be with what we know of the story, and how it would work in the context of WoW moving forward.

Like with Teriz' own theory, he speculated that a Dragon-themed class capable of using all 5 Dragonflight powers would have to be Chromatic dragons. People could absolutely argue that Chromatics would not be playable or that the experiments were destroyed, or that they are purely villainous. And doesn't stop Blizzard from creating the Dracthyr. My point is that if we open a discussion on what is plausible, we know that Chromatics, specifically the Chromatic Dragonflight, wouldn't have been the ideal fit for a Dragon themed class, because they are either purely villainous/deranged or dead. The concept of a class that uses all 5 Dragonflight abilities and with gameplay loosely based on Heroes of the Storm Dragon characters would still be completely valid though. We simply haven't reached any plausible concept behind it yet. And with Dracthyr, now we have one.

You're asking me like i'm some kind of psychic. I don't know. I can only hypothesize.

I've literally been talking about how you never put forth any hypothesis at all during this entire conversation, and have been making a point that there is nothing to discuss if your argument is litereally 'Customizations are not Dark Ranger. It could totally still be a class' and I literally ask you 'How?'. You don't need to be a psychic to put forth a speculative theory.

She would introduce the Dark Ranger to fight the big threat of an expansion.
Maybe. She could collect the souls somehow and imbue them into bodies, like she sort of did with Nathanos.

If I recall, she was able to do this because of the Valkyr.

"The ritual will make you stronger," she answered. Her red eyes flared as she paced about the dais at the center of the immense circular chamber. "And with the Legion's incursions into Horde lands, I require my champion to be strong."

Nathanos turned his gaze from Sylvanas to the stoic Val'kyr hovering just behind her.
---
His wariness gave him pause. Had it been wise of the queen to conscript such creatures into her service after the Lich King's defeat? He quickly chided himself and pushed the doubt from his mind. The Val'kyr had proved their worth by raising new Forsaken to Sylvanas's cause. The Dark Lady knew best. Always.

So if we go with this theory, we would have to either assume she has access to new Valkyr. Unless you have another possible explanation how this ritual would be done, and how it could be framed in a way that the Night Elves in the Maw would even accept this fate, considering we know the fate of the Forsaken is one of pain and torment which they never really chose for themselves.

No one said her followers will be relevant. Maybe she's mustering up a new group of followers.
I expect Sira Moonwarden to be released from prison, because there's no story reason to leave her in jail for all eternity.

Which requires more explanations in order to make sense.

Sure, she could muster more followers. I'll completely accept that answer. But what followers? Are we talking about followers from the Maw who are going to willingly allow themselves to be turned into Forsaken or Darkfallen? Are we talking about introducing Lightbound Dark Rangers?

As for my personal opinion, I remain unconvinced that would be the direction of the story. In my own interpretation, she is there with Anduin to seek forgiveness and redemption. It's about humbling her, and showing that she wasn't fit to be leader at all, though she can absolutely still have a part to play in the future. In my opinion, her story is a darker parallel of Thrall's; where both characters are taken out of leadership and not expected to return as leaders, while they still have roles to play in the larger story to come. As for 'followers', I personally don't see that happening since she literally killed the innocent Night Elves and is merely seeking their forgiveness, not their loyalty. It's quite a 'fuck you' to all Night Elf fans if they implied Night Elf civilian souls end up following under the Tyrant who killed them and sent them to the Maw just because she asked for forgiveness. The story for these Dark Rangers would be built around Stockholm syndrome.

And my question is not whether Sira Moonwarden would be released from prison. It has always been how she fits into this Dark Ranger concept, and whether you expect her to be redeemed and if so how.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Well, it isn't clear what kind of frost magic it is.
Supernatural can mean all sorts of things, like Arcane.

while sure it’s not clear where it comes from it’s not the elements which are natural and not arcane as they go out of there way to say unlike mages.

Everyone gets a necromantic spell in Shadowlands. That' part of the Necrolord covenant.
Meanwhile, only Warlocks were associated with necrolytes during Legion's Artifact weapons.

priest have a actual Necrolyte as part of there order hall they have a stronger connection then warlocks who just steal a weapon of one.

Nothing?
Drain Soul, Siphon Life, Haunt, Creeping Death, Deathbolt, Essence Drain, Rampant Afflictions, Rapid Contagion, Rot and Decay, Drain Life?

you are aware that theses having nothing do with with Necrolyte’s ya? That most(Mabye all) are totally unlinked to legion either being added before or after it? That none of them have to do with necromancy?

Like did you just go through the abilities and grab any thing with a death name or related to souls and just ignore the chronicles link saying they are a different group focusing on a different power that Gul’dan had to go to KJ to get help with?

Actually, when the Legion first appeared on Azeroth, in War of the Ancients, the Dreadlords were experimenting with Death at Suramar. It is likely that they were the ones who introduced necromancy to the Legion.

So you are right they were messing around with it at suamar.

They don't?
Because those bony creatures are infused with fel. Only one of them is a Demon.

"It can also be used to breathe life into constructs such as infernals, or in a necromantic way by resurrecting demons as undead."

undead can be infused with any thing they don’t need to be raised by it to be infused by it, see the fire, frost, light, blood, ect, undead in the scourge. Really the only type missing is lightning undead.

And haven’t we already gone over how plain text on wowpedia isn’t to be taken at face value? The citation for that quote is a tweet from a dev saying demons know how to raise undead it says nothing about them using fel to do so.

Oh also from the same dev in regard to your list of warlock ability’s.

@jmark73193 Draining souls and raising undead are two different things. Legion bros love dem souls.

[Ielenia]

Have you ever done one of the classic shaman quest where you get a totem? The magic comes directly from elementals them selfs Imbuing them with there natural powers, Shamans work the same way as the quote from the shaman page indicates.

Them being a conduit does not necessarily make magic "natural". Again, you just keep ignoring what I'm saying here:

Also, magic being "native" to the planet doesn't make it "not supernatural", either. Something is classified as "supernatural" if said something "defies the laws of nature", which all magic does. A tree doesn't naturally grow to its full adulthood in a matter of minutes. Fire doesn't spontaneously appears. Ice cannot form naturally in hot temperatures.

And as I said earlier (this really is a circle now) the laws of nature are written by the elementals and the nature spirits, you can say something is super natural by our real world standards but in Warcraft it’s all perfectly natural as the shaman pages points out unlike DK’s where it’s notably stated to be super natural.

Excuse me? Can yo show me where it says that "the laws of nature are written by the elementals and nature spirits?"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Them being a conduit does not necessarily make magic "natural". Again, you just keep ignoring what I'm saying here:


Excuse me? Can yo show me where it says that "the laws of nature are written by the elementals and nature spirits?"

The magic comes directly from the raw power of elementals which is all natural as stated by both chronicles and the shaman class page.

And I haven’t ignored that at all I’ve addressed it twice you just don’t seem to like the answer that the laws of nature aren’t the same in Warcraft as in real life and that blizzard them selfs have already said that elemental/nature magic are natural.

And I you want the laws of nature being written but the elements/spirits see The shattering, elemental upheaval, chronicles and likely some Druid crud though none comes to mind at the moment.

[cocomen2]

Combining martial prowess with supernatural cold, frost death knights leave their enemies chilled to the bone—and broken of the will to fight. Unlike mages who learn to harness frost magic to great effect, these death knights are born of it, rime gripping their decaying hearts. These frozen undead warriors wield dual blades to strike with ferocity and inflict deathly cold upon anyone who would stand against them.

All it does is proving, that they use same "Frost" magic but method for obtaining it a different.

A) Mage - study -> study magic -> learn frost magic.

B) "Hello Jerry, from this day, you are Death Knight, here is yours runeblade that has some "Frost" magic in it"
"Do i need to know anything else? maybe someone can teach me how to read?"
"Don't bother yourself with these thoughts, be good knight, go beat shit out of these peasants"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All it does is proving, that they use same "Frost" magic but method for obtaining it a different.

A) Mage - study -> study magic -> learn frost magic.

B) "Hello Jerry, from this day, you are Death Knight, here is yours runeblade that has some "Frost" magic in it"
"Do i need to know anything else? maybe someone can teach me how to read?"
"Don't bother yourself with these thoughts, be good knight, go beat shit out of these peasants"

Mages frost (and fire) magic is a byproduct of using arcane to manipulate temperatures, while I suppose it’s possible DK’s are also using arcane but without having to be trained that seems rather unlikely.

[Ielenia]

The magic comes directly from the raw power of elementals which is all natural as stated by both chronicles and the shaman class page.

The elementals grant magic to the shamans, yes, but it doesn't say that they are the creators/source of elemental magic.

And I haven’t ignored that at all I’ve addressed it twice you just don’t seem to like the answer that the laws of nature aren’t the same in Warcraft as in real life and that blizzard them selfs have already said that elemental/nature magic are natural.

You just said, and I quote:

the laws of nature are written by the elementals and the nature spirits

Of which you have shown zero evidence of.

And I you want the laws of nature being written but the elements/spirits see The shattering, elemental upheaval, chronicles and likely some Druid crud though none comes to mind at the moment.

I call bullshit on that. You made the claim, you need to show the evidence and not say "go look for it yourself".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The elementals grant magic to the shamans, yes, but it doesn't say that they are the creators/source of elemental magic.

from the legion page again.

the natural elements of the physical universe have been celebrated, feared, and even worshipped. Mystics sought communion with the earth, air, fire, and water, and learned to tap into their raw power.

The elementals are the source.

You just said, and I quote:
Of which you have shown zero evidence of.


I call bullshit on that. You made the claim, you need to show the evidence and not say "go look for it yourself".

Azeroth has its own bit about how the low amount of spirit made the elementals stronger and how they changed the laws of nature around them just by being in a area but that’s spread over a few pages (27-32) of the first chronicles so I’m just gonna go with the effect on Dreanor as it’s more succinct and covers both the elements and other forms of natural life.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/wJ9IHzl6q5...qJCDpP1w=s1600

So not a lot of spirit the elements stomp about reshaping the world to there respective elements, a whole bunch of spirit the elementals don’t stomp about and instead organic life grows incredibly fast and varied.

And please don’t hit me with “it doesn’t say law of nature any where” or some such after brining up tree growth rates or cold showing up in hot areas your self.