Poll: Do you want Dark Rangers?

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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    how would we know it’s not from shadowlands? Bolvar got control over frost from the helm of domination which was connected to the shadowlands he then losses said power when the helm is removed.
    Because there is no frost zone in the Shadowlands.

    blizzard has already said they are unlike mages so they aren’t using mage frost and Amal’thazad and a few other Quest givers calls what he teaches a dark art.
    Looking at the Frost Mage, we have Bone Chilling with an image of a skull, Chilled to the Bone with the same image, and Frostbite with another skeletal image.

    The word Necro has nothing to do with warlocks, blizzard went out of there way to separate the two groups and the closest you can say the two come into play is when warlocks were outlawed in the horde so Gul’dan used his dead warlock souls to make DK’s gave them necromantic powers instead of fel.
    It acctually does, because necromancy is more than just raising the dead. It's absorbing the lifeforce of another being and spreading diseases and decay.

    I can only assume your quoting this just because it say's shadow bolt in it?

    Here's how warlocks function according to legion, they don't use death magic, don't deal with actual diseases, don't deal with necromancy.
    Do you read what you send to the very end?

    "Affliction warlocks are masters of shadow-touched powers, but unlike shadow priests—deadliest when pushed to the brink of insanity—these warlocks delight in using fel forces to cause intense pain and suffering in others. They revel in corrupting minds and agonizing souls, leaving enemies in a state of torment that would see them undone in due time. Even the most battle-hardened warriors can be deceived, landing blow after blow against the warlock, only to succumb to their suffering as their very vitality is siphoned away by the dark spellcaster." - that's an aspect of necromancy, shared by Forsaken and Dark Rangers.

    there Necrolytes's not warlock or priest blizzard went out of there way to make them a sperate group with a separate origin and separate power source.

    Unless of course you want to say all groups must fall into the ingame classes in which case dark rangers would of course be hunters.
    So, they aren't represented?

    You Literally were talking about infustion.
    To show you it was Fel that raised them.

    again stop reading Plain text on wowpeida with no citation's and taking it at face value.
    You don't believe it?

    There really isn't further context as what the dev was replying to was delated so it's just the same quote in a tweet.
    Okay. And i explained to you that i wasn't talking about souls. I was talking about life draining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Stop circling dude and instead response to what was said.

    You make no sense what ever
    You asked me what i didn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I base my interpretation on how Blizzard chooses to represent these identities themselves through the game. Right now, it remains ambiguous.

    You asked me if Blademasters were Warriors. If Blizzard took a move towards making that happen, then they would be. I presented evidence of cases where Blademasters could be interpreted as Warriors. Right now, it still remains ambiguous. The fact that they keep it ambiguous means I regard it as being ambiguous.

    There was no evidence of Blademasters formally joining the ranks of the Warrior order; and even then the Warrior organization seems to be one of the loosest of all Order halls.
    You base everything on class halls?

    The same way Dark skinned Dwarf customizations and their options to play as Mage and Warlock classes (which were added to represent Dark Irons in the first place) exists alongside an actual Dark Iron Dwarf allied race.
    Hardly. It says the Bronzebeard dwarves might have learned from them, not that they are them.

    What does that even mean?

    Please tell me, what single race represents Fury spec? What single race represents Arms spec? This seems like a completely arbitrary value you're equating to specs. I'm calling bullshit on this.
    Dwarf (Mountain King) and Tauren (Chieftain).
    Count the number of races and see if they outnumber specs.

    Then that is vague as fuck and could be up to complete interpretation. What expansion concept would you say has nothing to do with Cataclysm? Cataclysm covered so many topics that you could connect it back to every existing expansion, and every future one as well.

    If we're talking about 11.0 and all the possibilities, Cataclysm could easily be connected to Time Travel, the Emerald Dream, to Old Gods, to Azshara, to Light vs Void etc. Like, honestly I could connect any current expansion back to being a Cataclysm 2.0 too if we're playing with vague connections, especially if you're implying BFA has anything to do with being a Wrath 2.0

    And overall, the guy had zero predictions on future class, which is the topic here. Not what vague connections a future expansion could have to Cataclysm (which literally can be anything).
    He claims it will be about the elements.

    Yes, and gameplay reasons like this were predicted and speculated on in depth, with the only difference being in which colors were matched with others. The concept of pairing two or more dragonflight themes into one spec was absolutely accepted into Dragonsworn concepts though, and you can see literal examples of this in multiple Dragonsworn fan class concepts.

    Through discussion, the idea of having 2+ dragonflights being represented in one spec was normalized and well accepted among people who were actively discussing the concept. It was more widely accepted than fan concepts that had 3-5 specs representing individual dragonflights.
    "Each dragonflight treats its dragonsworn differently, and grants them slightly different boons for their service."

    "It’s possible for a servant to dedicate his life to a flight without any real notice or recognition — especially for the shorter-lived races, such as humans."

    The RPG lore talks about pledging loyalty and serving one Dragonflight.

    I did not say there isn't enough.

    I was making arguments for a standalone Dark Ranger class and argued that they could easily exist alongside Hunters and other classes as recently as 2018. My opinion has since changed with how Blizzard themselves have regarded Dark Ranger as an broad identity rather than a clearly ambiguous one that had room to be expanded into its own class, as well as passing them over when the idea Setting and Story presented itself. Its chances to be a standalone class in the future dimished significantly, to the point where I no longer believe Blizzard is interested in taking all the gameplay and story concepts for a standalone class and making it real.

    Everything has been pointing at them being a much broader identity that merely represents Darkfallen Hunters. I mean as we're edging closer and closer to 9.2.5, the evidence continues to grow in this direction. Interviews openly talking about customizations instead of denying them outright. Datamines of quests involving Dark Rangers. Hell even in the last page here, someone posted Texture updates for Dark Rangers like Delaryn Summermoon with red eyes; tweaks they haven't done since 8.1. It shows that these characters are coming back in 9.2.5 in some form; that they have a part to play somehow. So with all this information, what reason do I have to expect a standalone class?

    I personally have no reason to expect a Dark Ranger as a standalone class, therefore I do not have the same hangups that you do when discussing them as potentially being anything else. That doesn't mean I don't maintain a *low chance* that they could still be their own class. Cuz otherwise, what do you see of all the talk and evidence by Blizzard about Dark Rangers being customizations and the datamines of 9.2.5? You really think they're not doing anything here?
    And as a spec?
    You say Dark Ranger would be a customization option, but what Wardens or Night Warriors. Would they, too? And i'm not talking eye color. I'm talking gameplay.

    So are you talking about playable Dark Rangers all being Mawsworn?
    No, i'm saying she can use them to replace her Val'kyr.

    How would that happen. Like, is there literally zero reason for her turning good? We just assume it because it's possible?

    Because I could say:

    'But, like all evil characters who remain evil, she will become a raid or dungeon bosses and get killed off'. There's nobreason for me to assume she would turn good. Every evil character turned good had a reason to do so, and I've been asking for any indication or theory for that happening. Otherwise, an evil character remains evil.

    This 'what if' goes both ways, and you already know where I stand when discussing Sira Moonwarden. I'm open to discussing other possibilities, but you literally can't even give me a hypothesis to discuss. You literally don't know how it could even happen. I'm not what you expect other people think when you can't even present a theory for how it would actually work.

    For example:
    "We could have a Starcraft themed expansion. How? I don't know. But it would work"

    Would you be convinced? Would you consider this legitimately discussable? To me, there is nothing to plausibly discuss, because it doesn't present what it means or how it works. There is no speculation being presented here, just very vague concept left to anyone's interpretation.
    Could happen as well.
    You know what? I'll be more happy if she does turn into a raid boss. Doesn't nullify the option of Wardens, just like Arthas and Illidan didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/supernatural

    "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."

    Magic in the Warcraft universe is NOT considered beyond what is natural.
    Of course it is. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called magic.
    You still have science alongside it.

  2. #902
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Because there is no frost zone in the Shadowlands.
    I mean the shadowlands are infinite so there absolutely is one not to mention the Maw where the helm comes from has Frost in it so it could come directly from there.

    Looking at the Frost Mage, we have Bone Chilling with an image of a skull, Chilled to the Bone with the same image, and Frostbite with another skeletal image.
    so you think the lichking and all those under him are using arcane even though blizzard says they are unlike mages and call it a dark art and various other things that they never apply to arcane/mages?



    It acctually does, because necromancy is more than just raising the dead. It's absorbing the lifeforce of another being and spreading diseases and decay.


    Do you read what you send to the very end?

    "Affliction warlocks are masters of shadow-touched powers, but unlike shadow priests—deadliest when pushed to the brink of insanity—these warlocks delight in using fel forces to cause intense pain and suffering in others. They revel in corrupting minds and agonizing souls, leaving enemies in a state of torment that would see them undone in due time. Even the most battle-hardened warriors can be deceived, landing blow after blow against the warlock, only to succumb to their suffering as their very vitality is siphoned away by the dark spellcaster." - that's an aspect of necromancy, shared by Forsaken and Dark Rangers.
    Necromancy/death magic isn’t the only power that can Siphon life Fel does it all the time in the legion Void does it, even nature magics can do it, Siphoning life doesn’t something necromantic.



    So, they aren't represented?
    in the classes? No the closest they come is that single priest in legion all the warlocks do is steal a dead ones weapon which doesn’t suddenly change the class they represent.


    To show you it was Fel that raised them.
    A skeleton infused by X doesn’t show they were raised by X which is why I pointed out we have skeletons/undead infused by literally every thing in the scourge but they were all raised by necromancy.



    You don't believe it?
    If I did would we be having this back and forth?



    Okay. And i explained to you that i wasn't talking about souls. I was talking about life draining.
    and then you linked about of warlocks ability’s other then drain life including multiple about souls.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post

    You asked me what i didn't understand.
    Great! Then you should know now that the san layn are an organisation same as dark rangers and that they are not a class at this point. Any further talks comes down to speculation and wishfull thinking which you found new people to circle debate with. Good for you
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-20 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #904
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I literally pointed out twice that your argument implies nothing in Azeroth is Natural.
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Are you just refusing to read everything I'm saying. IN THE WARCRAFT WORLD IT IS NOT CONSIDERED SUPERNATURAL. Stop fucking using real world mentalities when talking about a fantasy world.
    In your opinion. In mine, 'natural' is what occurs naturally, like water flowing down a river, trees slowly growing on fertile soil, and ice melting under the heat of the sun, whereas 'unnatural' would be things like water flowing up a hill, trees growing in seconds in the arid desert, ice forming under the sun during summer, and rain happening indoors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Again all I can do is point you towards chronicles and the creation of The universe and all life within it. Because if you want to say the effects of Magic aren't Natural then nothing in all of warcraft is Natural as literally every thing exist from the effects of magic.
    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You base everything on class halls?
    One of many things, yes. It is official lore.

    Are you implying they should be ignored?

    Hardly. It says the Bronzebeard dwarves might have learned from them, not that they are them.
    Yeah no where was that ever explained in the lore. At all.

    If you're getting your information from WoWpedia on this, you need to regard the GIANT QUESTION MARK denoting speculation and opinion.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mage_races

    Dwarf (Mountain King) and Tauren (Chieftain).
    Count the number of races and see if they outnumber specs.
    So Varian is a Mountain King and Chieftain because he uses both specs? Saurfang is a Mountain King when he fights Sylvanas while dual wielding?

    Specs do not take up a single race-combo identity. You're pushing confirmation bias as an argument. I mean, Night Elves just as easily represent all Druid specs as they do Demon Hunters. And what spec do Mechagnomes represent?

    He claims it will be about the elements.
    He wildly speculates that it will be about the elements.

    Consider that there will be elemental protodrakes featured in Dragon Isles too, we seen the concept art. They are literally reframing Proto Dragons as being evolved from Elementals.

    https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...756801/photo/1

    "Each dragonflight treats its dragonsworn differently, and grants them slightly different boons for their service."

    "It’s possible for a servant to dedicate his life to a flight without any real notice or recognition — especially for the shorter-lived races, such as humans."

    The RPG lore talks about pledging loyalty and serving one Dragonflight.
    Which Blizzard could change the definition of any time, considering the RPG is not canonized, right?

    They changed the Shado-pan from how they were depicted in the RPG too.

    And as a spec?
    You say Dark Ranger would be a customization option, but what Wardens or Night Warriors. Would they, too? And i'm not talking eye color. I'm talking gameplay.
    Night Warriors are already a customization since 8.1.

    What else do you need from em?

    No, i'm saying she can use them to replace her Val'kyr.
    Mawsworn do not have Val'kyr, they have Mawsworn Kyrian who are not the same thing and do not have the same powers as a Val'kyr do.

    Only Valk'yr were able to raise Forsaken, that is why they were so special. And they're all gone now.

    Could happen as well.
    You know what? I'll be more happy if she does turn into a raid boss. Doesn't nullify the option of Wardens, just like Arthas and Illidan didn't.
    Then how would Dark Rangers be connected to Wardens at all? She was the only one raised, and if she stays evil, there is no reason to imply any connection between how Dark Rangers gain a whole spec based off her. No other Dark Warden was ever raised, nor is there any suggestion that there would be.

    She did not train any Dark Rangers how to use Warden abilities during the time she served Sylvanas. So are you implying more wardens will die in the future?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-20 at 09:45 PM.

  6. #906
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    It’s not a misrepresentation it’s the only conclusion of your argument.

    If the effects of magic aren’t natural then the universe isn’t natural as it was created by the effect of light and void clashing, life in the universe isn’t natural as it was created by the effect of shards of light flying through the great dark, Organic life isn’t natural as it was spawned by the effect of Spirit on the elements.

    Every thing in all of Warcraft is a by product of the effects of magic as laid out in chronicles so if your argument is that said effects aren’t natural nothing at all is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Consider that there will be elemental protodrakes featured in Dragon Isles too, we seen the concept art. They are literally reframing Proto Dragons as being evolved from Elementals.
    they actually did that reframing a while back in chronicles where it says protodrakes and other organic life comes from a mix of Spirit and the elements that weren’t locked in the elemental plains.

    Dragon flight will just be the first time we see them beyond the mention in chronicles.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #907
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It’s not a misrepresentation it’s the only conclusion of your argument.
    False. It's the "only conclusion" to your misrepresentation of my argument, you mean.

    I literally explained and demonstrated the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' yet you keep ignoring everything for the benefit of your misrepresentation of my argument.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #908
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. It's the "only conclusion" to your misrepresentation of my argument, you mean.

    I literally explained and demonstrated the difference between 'natural' and 'unnatural' yet you keep ignoring everything for the benefit of your misrepresentation of my argument.
    So the universe wasn't created by light and void clashing? Life wasn't seeded in said universe by shards of light flying through the great dark? Organic life wasn't a byproduct of the element's and Spirit mixing?

    every thing they tell us in chronicles is just wrong?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.
    But you won't touch on how to define anything being Natural when the entire universe and all life on the planet itself is sourced to being created by magic?

    If everything on Azeroth was sourced from magical creation, all life including those of plants and trees being of the domain of the cosmic power of Life, then do you still consider that Natural?

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And if that is your takeaway from my arguments, then you're wrong. I've literally explained and demonstrated with examples.

    - - - Updated - - -


    In your opinion. In mine, 'natural' is what occurs naturally, like water flowing down a river, trees slowly growing on fertile soil, and ice melting under the heat of the sun, whereas 'unnatural' would be things like water flowing up a hill, trees growing in seconds in the arid desert, ice forming under the sun during summer, and rain happening indoors.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Yeah, that's a misrepresentation of my arguments, and shows you don't care to understand what the other side is arguing. I've already shown multiple examples.
    Ok well your opinion on the matter is objectively wrong especially since even Blizzard considers it to be normal. But heavens forbid you ever admit you're wrong.

  11. #911
    I would prefer Dark Rangers to regular hunters tbh

    We need a second class with bows.

  12. #912
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So the universe wasn't created by light and void clashing? Life wasn't seeded in said universe by shards of light flying through the great dark? Organic life wasn't a byproduct of the element's and Spirit mixing?

    every thing they tell us in chronicles is just wrong?
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But you won't touch on how to define anything being Natural when the entire universe and all life on the planet itself is sourced to being created by magic?
    Like I said to the other poster: I'm not talking about the creation of the universe. Not to mention you're purposely avoiding my explanations and examples to make your case, here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Ok well your opinion on the matter is objectively wrong especially since even Blizzard considers it to be normal.
    You misspelled "subjectively" there. Just saying.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #913
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.
    Your not talking about it sure sure, so let me ask you directly then.

    Is the creation of the universe or the seeding of life both elemental and organic in warcraft natural? is the water natural? is the sun on a summer day? is fire or the plant that doesn't grow in the desrt?
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-05-21 at 05:38 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except I'm not talking about the creation of the universe or anything. I'm simply saying that the effects of magic are not natural. Such as causing water to freeze while under the sun of a hot summer day. Or to cause rocks to catch fire. Or make rain happen inside a house. Or open tears in reality to temporarily bind two locations.

    The effects of magic are as natural an effect as someone who died because of a gunshot wound on their forehead is considered 'natural causes'.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Like I said to the other poster: I'm not talking about the creation of the universe. Not to mention you're purposely avoiding my explanations and examples to make your case, here.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You misspelled "subjectively" there. Just saying.
    No. I used the right word. You are actually objectively wrong. Again, even Blizzard classifies magic and its effects as being normal within the Warcraft universe. You keep trying to say it's not normal because in real life views. Pretty much everything in the Warcraft universe is based on magic. Are you saying Blizzard is wrong too?

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I mean the shadowlands are infinite so there absolutely is one not to mention the Maw where the helm comes from has Frost in it so it could come directly from there.
    You can only speculate that. There's no confirmation.
    The Helm of Domination is what it sounds like - Domination magic. No frost.

    so you think the lichking and all those under him are using arcane even though blizzard says they are unlike mages and call it a dark art and various other things that they never apply to arcane/mages?
    Cocomen already told you about that.
    "Combining martial prowess with supernatural cold, frost death knights leave their enemies chilled to the bone (Mage ability) —and broken of the will to fight. Unlike mages who learn to harness frost magic to great effect, these death knights are born of it, rime gripping their decaying hearts. These frozen undead warriors wield dual blades to strike with ferocity and inflict deathly cold upon anyone who would stand against them.

    It indicates that both use Frost. While Mages learn it, Death Knights are born of it.

    I don't know if it's Arcane magic. But, it is Frost.

    Necromancy/death magic isn’t the only power that can Siphon life Fel does it all the time in the legion Void does it, even nature magics can do it, Siphoning life doesn’t something necromantic.
    We've already been through it.
    "Warlocks could leech life energy and power their own magical abilities. The warlocks' death/mortal coil spell is a variation of the Drain Life spell and is one of the necromantic abilities warlocks share with necromancers.
    Draining the life energy of creatures, plants, and people with magic ages them."

    "This appears to be the Life Drain ability that Dark Rangers used in Warcraft III. This ability absorbs the life essence of a target enemy unit and gives it to the Dark Ranger."

    in the classes? No the closest they come is that single priest in legion all the warlocks do is steal a dead ones weapon which doesn’t suddenly change the class they represent.
    Natalie Seline?
    So, they're Shadow Priests?

    A skeleton infused by X doesn’t show they were raised by X which is why I pointed out we have skeletons/undead infused by literally every thing in the scourge but they were all raised by necromancy.
    Examples?
    Because we know Fel raised them:
    "In Mythic difficulty, Gul'dan reclaims the Fel power from the Fel Iron Summoners to resurrect Mannoroth, keeping the Doom Lord's Fel Spire intact."

    "Gul'dan harnesses the power of a Fel Spire to resurrect Mannoroth, destroying the Fel Spire and closing the portal to the Doom Lords."

    "Gul'dan harnesses the power of a Fel Spire to return Mannoroth to his true form, destroying the Fel Spire and closing the portal to the Fel Imps."

    "Gul'dan harnesses the power of a Fel Spire to Empower Mannoroth, destroying the Fel Spire and closing the portal to the Dread Infernals."

    "Felmyst is a fel dragon and the third boss of the Sunwell Plateau raid. She is raised from the corpse of the blue dragon Madrigosa when the blood of the slain pit lord Brutallus seeps into the ground and flows beneath her body."

    If I did would we be having this back and forth?
    Probably. Because you love to argue.

    and then you linked about of warlocks ability’s other then drain life including multiple about souls.
    Drain Soul, which you can drop if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    One of many things, yes. It is official lore.

    Are you implying they should be ignored?
    We already know these places miscategorize followers and contain NPCs that are not part of their relevant class.

    Yeah no where was that ever explained in the lore. At all.

    If you're getting your information from WoWpedia on this, you need to regard the GIANT QUESTION MARK denoting speculation and opinion.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mage_races
    So, Bronzebeard Dwarves are Dark Iron Dwarves?
    What a waste of an allied race spot...
    You need to tell that to Moira, who has always tried to be one.

    So Varian is a Mountain King and Chieftain because he uses both specs? Saurfang is a Mountain King when he fights Sylvanas while dual wielding?

    Specs do not take up a single race-combo identity. You're pushing confirmation bias as an argument. I mean, Night Elves just as easily represent all Druid specs as they do Demon Hunters. And what spec do Mechagnomes represent?
    The specs cover general identities. I meant the playable races are clearly defined by their racial traits. If Darkfallen are added, their racial traits would indicate their matching class and specialization, which is unlikely to be the Hunter. If Venthyr aren't added, then they would most likely take the spot of Blood Death Knights (as per the San'layn).

    As for your question, my analysis leads me to believe Mechagnomes are Destruction Warlocks.

    He wildly speculates that it will be about the elements.

    Consider that there will be elemental protodrakes featured in Dragon Isles too, we seen the concept art. They are literally reframing Proto Dragons as being evolved from Elementals.

    https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...756801/photo/1
    Which can be a teaser towards the elements' bigger involvement next expansion.

    Which Blizzard could change the definition of any time, considering the RPG is not canonized, right?

    They changed the Shado-pan from how they were depicted in the RPG too.
    Yes, but you can't determine it was due to forum users' consensus that a spec can cover several Dragonflights.

    Night Warriors are already a customization since 8.1.

    What else do you need from em?
    The gameplay Tyrande presents?
    And what about the Warden? Is it also represented through customization?

    Mawsworn do not have Val'kyr, they have Mawsworn Kyrian who are not the same thing and do not have the same powers as a Val'kyr do.

    Only Valk'yr were able to raise Forsaken, that is why they were so special. And they're all gone now.
    Why wouldn't they? They're literally the original version of such Val'kyr, coming straight from the Maw and serving the Jailer himself, who created the Lich King.
    We already know the Lich King pretty much copied everything in his Scourge from the Shadowlands.

    I call bullshit on that. Nothing special about Val'kyr. They're just converted Odyn Val'kyr, who in turn are based on the Kyrian. There's no reason why Mawsworm Kyrian wouldn't be able to.

    Then how would Dark Rangers be connected to Wardens at all? She was the only one raised, and if she stays evil, there is no reason to imply any connection between how Dark Rangers gain a whole spec based off her. No other Dark Warden was ever raised, nor is there any suggestion that there would be.

    She did not train any Dark Rangers how to use Warden abilities during the time she served Sylvanas. So are you implying more wardens will die in the future?
    First of all, you're wrong:
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lyani_Shadestalker

    Second of all, being good is not a necessity for a class to have certain capabilities:
    Death Knights were all bestowed with powers by the Lich King back in WotLK, and he was evil.
    Illidan trained Demon Hunters in his arts back in TBC, when he was an antagonist.
    Being good is just a plot reason to make them join us.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    We already know these places miscategorize followers and contain NPCs that are not part of their relevant class.
    Which is why we don't only base it on Order Halls or Followers. We also use lore to bridge a further connection.

    Blademasters don't have direct lore to connect them to Warriors.

    I clearly said if Bkizzard moved in the direction (of connecting them officially, through lore) then I would consider them as the same, or at the very least represented by existing classes.

    So, Bronzebeard Dwarves are Dark Iron Dwarves?
    What a waste of an allied race spot...
    You need to tell that to Moira, who has always tried to be one.
    As much as Mechagnomes are Destrolocks.

    Which can be a teaser towards the elements' bigger involvement next expansion.
    Which is wild speculation. There's nothing indicating a connection between Protodragons and 11.0, would you agree?

    Yes, but you can't determine it was due to forum users' consensus that a spec can cover several Dragonflights.
    That wouldn't be the point though.

    It would be whether it was a reasonable expectation, which is my point. What Blizzard does is on their own whims, what we can speculate is what could plausibly and reasonably happen.

    Like with WoD, Blizzard took a total left turn and made something no one could speculate or predict. With Drsgon Isles, do you truly believe it was unpredictable? Fan concensus speculated Dragon Isles because it was the most reasonable and plausible expectation.

    Shadowlands was reasonably expected the same way since we knew Sylvanas' story was immediately being continued. We just didn't know how.

    The gameplay Tyrande presents?
    You realize that her gameplay already exists through multiple classes that already exist in the game, correct? And you realize that Blizzard has no duty to fulfill your personal desire to have all that existing gameplay represented in a singular new class, right?

    It is unreasonable to expect a new class because you personally do not think its gameplay is represented well enough. That is not a good reason to base future class speculation on, because it is ultimately based on confirmation bias.

    This is why I make an example of why Runemasters won't be playable, even if I personally don't think they have been represented properly. I don't let these biases influence what I consider plausible or not.

    As I said, even back in 2018 I was adamantly making arguments in support of a Dark Ranger class, and made clear arguments for why they aren't just Hunters. Today, that is very different because Blizzard themselves are tying their lore directly to being, quite literally, 'Darkfallen Hunters'.

    The Sylvanas novel is particularly damning to the Dark Ranger identity exclusively being a standalone class.

    Why wouldn't they? They're literally the original version of such Val'kyr, coming straight from the Maw and serving the Jailer himself, who created the Lich King.
    We already know the Lich King pretty much copied everything in his Scourge from the Shadowlands.
    Do they have the same powers as Val'kyr? No, they do not.

    I call bullshit on that. Nothing special about Val'kyr. They're just converted Odyn Val'kyr, who in turn are based on the Kyrian. There's no reason why Mawsworm Kyrian wouldn't be able to.
    Then show me examples of Mawsworn Kyrian raising any dead. If you are bold enough to call bullshit, then provide your proof.

    First of all, you're wrong:
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lyani_Shadestalker

    Second of all, being good is not a necessity for a class to have certain capabilities:
    Death Knights were all bestowed with powers by the Lich King back in WotLK, and he was evil.
    Illidan trained Demon Hunters in his arts back in TBC, when he was an antagonist.
    Being good is just a plot reason to make them join us.
    Then you're intentionally ignoring the purpose of a redemption arc.

    The whole point is to hear your theory of Sylvanas returning from the Maw with new forces. Right now you're implying she would still use evil magic with themes of torment still intact, which suggests to me that there would be quite a massive conflict of interest with her character being humbled and being redeemed for her past regressions.

    It makes sense to you that she would seek redemption then lead a bunch of Mawsworn and Night Elves who choose to be raised in a tormented fashion in order to obtain Banshee powers? Because it does not make sense to me. I do not see this as being plausible. If you think this would realistically happen, I'd be interested in hearing why.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-21 at 10:11 AM.

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which is why we don't only base it on Order Halls or Followers. We also use lore to bridge a further connection.

    Blademasters don't have direct lore to connect them to Warriors.

    I clearly said if Bkizzard moved in the direction (of connecting them officially, through lore) then I would consider them as the same, or at the very least represented by existing classes.
    The whole mastery over blades?

    As much as Mechagnomes are Destrolocks.
    Or that Mechagnomes are gnomes, just with replaced limbs.

    Which is wild speculation. There's nothing indicating a connection between Protodragons and 11.0, would you agree?
    No, but the elements are likely to make an appearance, as the Dragonflight cinematic indicates.

    That wouldn't be the point though.

    It would be whether it was a reasonable expectation, which is my point. What Blizzard does is on their own whims, what we can speculate is what could plausibly and reasonably happen.

    Like with WoD, Blizzard took a total left turn and made something no one could speculate or predict. With Drsgon Isles, do you truly believe it was unpredictable? Fan concensus speculated Dragon Isles because it was the most reasonable and plausible expectation.

    Shadowlands was reasonably expected the same way since we knew Sylvanas' story was immediately being continued. We just didn't know how.
    Well, the Dragon Isles being mentioned in BfA made it no surprise.

    You realize that her gameplay already exists through multiple classes that already exist in the game, correct? And you realize that Blizzard has no duty to fulfill your personal desire to have all that existing gameplay represented in a singular new class, right?

    It is unreasonable to expect a new class because you personally do not think its gameplay is represented well enough. That is not a good reason to base future class speculation on, because it is ultimately based on confirmation bias.

    This is why I make an example of why Runemasters won't be playable, even if I personally don't think they have been represented properly. I don't let these biases influence what I consider plausible or not.

    As I said, even back in 2018 I was adamantly making arguments in support of a Dark Ranger class, and made clear arguments for why they aren't just Hunters. Today, that is very different because Blizzard themselves are tying their lore directly to being, quite literally, 'Darkfallen Hunters'.

    The Sylvanas novel is particularly damning to the Dark Ranger identity exclusively being a standalone class.
    Death Knight gameplay didn't exist? Plate-wearer with two handed-weapon, Frost magic, DoTs, pets.

    Demon Hunter's? Agile, fast paced slasher, and the use of Fel?

    Evoker? Time magic, Arcane, Fire.

    Yeah... that standard you are using does not apply.
    It is not my personal wish or bias. Blizzard simply has no reason to introduce a new gameplay style to an old concept just for the sake of a stupidly resolved story.

    Do they have the same powers as Val'kyr? No, they do not.
    How do you know?

    Then show me examples of Mawsworn Kyrian raising any dead. If you are bold enough to call bullshit, then provide your proof.
    There is no reason why they wouldn't. They are literally the lieutenants of the Jailer and Helya.

    Then you're intentionally ignoring the purpose of a redemption arc.

    The whole point is to hear your theory of Sylvanas returning from the Maw with new forces. Right now you're implying she would still use evil magic with themes of torment still intact, which suggests to me that there would be quite a massive conflict of interest with her character being humbled and being redeemed for her past regressions.
    Did Death Knights stop using dark magic once they turned good? Did Demon Hunters?

    It makes sense to you that she would seek redemption then lead a bunch of Mawsworn and Night Elves who choose to be raised in a tormented fashion in order to obtain Banshee powers? Because it does not make sense to me. I do not see this as being plausible. If you think this would realistically happen, I'd be interested in hearing why.
    This is literally the story of the Forsaken and the Knight of the Ebon Blade.
    I don't know why you expect everything and everyone to turn into rainbow casting carebears.

  18. #918
    The Lightbringer Proskill's Avatar
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    is it true dark rangers are coming as a RACE in dragonfllight? (possibly prepatch)
    Scam Citizen referral code: STAR-2YL2-XDTX|get 5,000 UEC

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    The whole mastery over blades?
    Which is firmly a part of the Warrior class lore already either way. Warriors encompass a wide variety of identities already. Arms is dedicated to mastering types of weapons, of which bladed weapons are a particular type they could specialize in. That is why a Blademaster was a warrior trainer.

    Or that Mechagnomes are gnomes, just with replaced limbs.
    You were making examples of things that aren't likely, but drawing arbitrary categorizations for. Whooosh.

    No, but the elements are likely to make an appearance, as the Dragonflight cinematic indicates.
    In Dragonflight yes. But you weren't talking about elements in Dragonflight, you were talking about teasing elements for 11.0.

    I said you had no way to indicate that being remotely true, do you? You recognize your previous speculation as being a wild guess, right? Unless you can show me where Blizzard has indicated Elements being teased for 11.0.

    Well, the Dragon Isles being mentioned in BfA made it no surprise.
    And that's the point of speculation and discussion. Good predictions should not be surprising, they should be intuitive.

    For example, nee Mawsworn Dark Rangers having dark, evil powers gained from Sylvanas' redemption arc is counter-intuitive.

    Death Knight gameplay didn't exist? Plate-wearer with two handed-weapon, Frost magic, DoTs, pets.

    Demon Hunter's? Agile, fast paced slasher, and the use of Fel?

    Evoker? Time magic, Arcane, Fire.
    If they were interested in Dark Ranger gameplay, why skip their obvious addition for Shadowlands and give their abilities to Hunter instead?

    And why save it for a potential expansion 6+ years after Shadowlands?

    How do you know?
    Because the lore has literally shown us what Mawsworn Kyrian are capable of?

    If her Val'kyr were so easily replaceable there would be no stakes in her having lost the Val'kyr in the story.

    There is no reason why they wouldn't. They are literally the lieutenants of the Jailer and Helya.
    So are the Nathrezim yet they can't raise the dead.

    Did Death Knights stop using dark magic once they turned good? Did Demon Hunters?
    No, and they were never originated from characters after they turned good. You presented an idea after Sylvanas becomes good again, did you not?

    You didn't theorize this being an origin story in the past did you?

    This is literally the story of the Forsaken and the Knight of the Ebon Blade.
    I don't know why you expect everything and everyone to turn into rainbow casting carebears.
    But you didn't present that theory.

    If I ask you to present a theory, I expect you to think it through before you do, not just shift goalposts and change your idea midway every time I point out your inconsistencies.

    You should be dealing with these inconsistencies yourself, and it's literally doable if you took any time at all to consider how your ideas would practically work. The problem is you haven't at all, and only focus on how gameplay would work rather than the more important aspect of why and how they should be a playable class in the first place, especially when Blizzard has been pushing towards associating them directly as a Racial title for Darkfallen Hunters.

  20. #920
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Your not talking about it sure sure, so let me ask you directly then.

    Is the creation of the universe or the seeding of life both elemental and organic in warcraft natural? is the water natural? is the sun on a summer day? is fire or the plant that doesn't grow in the desrt?
    I don't care about changing the subject, here. We're talking about things that occur naturally, like ice melting under the sun, rivers flowing downstream, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No. I used the right word.
    And now you misspelled "wrong" there.

    You are actually objectively wrong.
    I'm starting to think you don't know what "objectively" means...

    Again, even Blizzard classifies magic and its effects as being normal within the Warcraft universe.
    Where? Your interpretation of what they wrote is not fact.

    Pretty much everything in the Warcraft universe is based on magic.
    And? The river isn't flowing downhill "because of magic". Seeds aren't blooming on fertile soil "because of magic". Ice isn't melting under the heat of the summer sun "because of magic".

    Are you saying Blizzard is wrong too?
    No, I'm saying your subjective interpretation of Blizzard's words is wrong.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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