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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Horde is NEVER allowed to get revenge or justice, that should be evident by now.

    The few times an Alliance NPC have been a boss, they always end up "defeated", never killed, yet Horde NPCs die left and right.
    Horde and Alliance NPCs really get similar treatments when it comes to dungeons/raids. You have the ex-faction NPCs like Nazgrim or Fandral who are killed. You have the minor NPCs like Mestrah and Anathos who are killed, and then you have the major NPCs like Gelbin and Jaina who are injured. Even major ex-faction NPCs like Garrosh and Sylvanas aren't killed; they're captured and put on trial. The main difference is that Horde's major NPCs are turned against the faction more often than Alliance's are, while Alliance's major NPCs tend to embrace the Horde more.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    Theramore was one of the most justified military targets in all of wows history. The fact Blizzard treated it like some unimaginable line had been crossed was nonsensical.

    It was a military port being used to supply a warzone in horde lands. It had tanks and a road straight into the heart of Horde lands. The Horde and Allaince were at war when it was destroyed.

    If Jaina wanted to sit out the war she probably shouldn't of allowed her city to become the Humans main entry point into kalmidor or allowed it's marines invaded durotar.
    Everyone has their justifications. Moral, military, altruistic, selfish... The point here is that these things never have the proper consequences. I believe the same will happen with Talanji. I particularly doubt Jaina will die for Talanji. At least not in an act of revenge. Who knows if their relationship develops and she ends up choosing to renew? No, wait...

  3. #103
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    Theramore was one of the most justified military targets in all of wows history. The fact Blizzard treated it like some unimaginable line had been crossed was nonsensical.

    It was a military port being used to supply a warzone in horde lands. It had tanks and a road straight into the heart of Horde lands. The Horde and Allaince were at war when it was destroyed.

    If Jaina wanted to sit out the war she probably shouldn't of allowed her city to become the Humans main entry point into kalmidor or allowed it's marines invaded durotar.
    that doesn't justify turning Theramore civilians into target practices and torturing them to death

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Horde is NEVER allowed to get revenge or justice, that should be evident by now.

    The few times an Alliance NPC have been a boss, they always end up "defeated", never killed, yet Horde NPCs die left and right.
    on the other hand though, yes; when was the last time the Alliance was actually held accountable?
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    that doesn't justify turning Theramore civilians into target practices and torturing them to death

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    on the other hand though, yes; when was the last time the Alliance was actually held accountable?
    True but the actual Bombing of Theramore was perfectly permissable

  5. #105
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    True but the actual Bombing of Theramore was perfectly permissable
    yes, had Garrosh simply just bombed it; it's all good and I would be in the side of the Horde

    however, on the other hand again; the Horde having Theramore citizens under orgrimmar do not make sense; the Horde was having resource and logistics issues in that time, food included; the Horde was practically starving on that point and them keeping Theramorians and Darkspears in the underground concentration camps do not make sense as you will need to feed them

    It feels that that scene was literally just an afterthought and added just to add an extra paint of "Horde bad"
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Yes, Garrosh ordered Gilneas be secured for the Horde, and Sylvanas was put in charge of that offensive. She wasn't particularly merciful, even defying Garrosh's orders in deploying the plague. Her choices directly caused numerous Gilnean casualties and the fall of their kingdom. Also, your victim blaming of Liam just seems very bizarre; Sylvanas shot the arrow to kill, and the fact it was intercepted didn't change her lethal intent. Do you really expect Genn to be fine with the whole affair just because she was trying to kill him instead of Liam? She shouldn't have been there to fire the arrow in the first place, given Gilneas gave zero provocation. He acts like she's responsible for everything because she literally was the one responsible for managing how the offensive was handled. Personally, I find the fact that Genn continues to hold onto the grudge refreshing given how much everyone else seems to simply forget all the offenses in WoW's history. It's be nice if Baine demanded reparations from the Council of Three Hammers for the Explorer's League actions in Mulgore and the extermination of the Stonespire, for instance.
    Sylvanas convinced him to put her in charge because Garrosh planned on using her people as cannon fodder for his. Would it have been better if she hadn't, a good chunk of the forsaken were killed, and Gilneas was conquered anyway? Maybe Liam would've survived against Garrosh attacking instead of Sylvanas, we'll never know. And don't act like Garrosh ordering the blight not to be used was out of any sort of compassion or dislike of the use of chemical weapons or any kind of moral compass. He didn't want the area poisoned because the entire purpose of the invasion was to provide the Horde a deep water port in Northern Lordaeron.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Sylvanas convinced him to put her in charge because Garrosh planned on using her people as cannon fodder for his. Would it have been better if she hadn't, a good chunk of the forsaken were killed, and Gilneas was conquered anyway? Maybe Liam would've survived against Garrosh attacking instead of Sylvanas, we'll never know. And don't act like Garrosh ordering the blight not to be used was out of any sort of compassion or dislike of the use of chemical weapons or any kind of moral compass. He didn't want the area poisoned because the entire purpose of the invasion was to provide the Horde a deep water port in Northern Lordaeron.
    From the Gilnean's perspective, yes, it would've been better if more of the Forsaken were killed in the conquest. From the perspective of Sylvanas' culpability with regards to the Gilnean's suffering, it would've been better, as she'd not be responsible for any of the attacks in that situation. More importantly, we don't know how things would've played out without the use of the plague. As is, Sylvanas was put in charge, the territory was destroyed, and neither Horde nor Alliance were able to claim it, with a black dragon cult eventually moving in to Gilnean City. Expecting Genn to forgive what happened, particularly when she showed no remorse to him for her actions, seems to downplay how much he lost during that invasion.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    From the Gilnean's perspective, yes, it would've been better if more of the Forsaken were killed in the conquest. From the perspective of Sylvanas' culpability with regards to the Gilnean's suffering, it would've been better, as she'd not be responsible for any of the attacks in that situation. More importantly, we don't know how things would've played out without the use of the plague. As is, Sylvanas was put in charge, the territory was destroyed, and neither Horde nor Alliance were able to claim it, with a black dragon cult eventually moving in to Gilnean City. Expecting Genn to forgive what happened, particularly when she showed no remorse to him for her actions, seems to downplay how much he lost during that invasion.
    You missed my point. Without Sylvanas he would've sent the forsaken in as cannon fodder to get slaughtered, then once the Gilneans were worn out sent in his own orc forces to wipe them out. Gilneas still would've been lost and they still would've had to flee. The only thing that would've changed would've been from whom they were fleeing. That's why I'm saying Genn should place blame on who is responsible, which was always ultimately Garrosh. But even in Cata and MoP he never once mentioned Garrosh. It was always Sylvanas because it was personal. And a king who lets a personal grudge dictate national policy is a poor one.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You missed my point. Without Sylvanas he would've sent the forsaken in as cannon fodder to get slaughtered, then once the Gilneans were worn out sent in his own orc forces to wipe them out. Gilneas still would've been lost and they still would've had to flee. The only thing that would've changed would've been from whom they were fleeing. That's why I'm saying Genn should place blame on who is responsible, which was always ultimately Garrosh. But even in Cata and MoP he never once mentioned Garrosh. It was always Sylvanas because it was personal. And a king who lets a personal grudge dictate national policy is a poor one.
    Genn isn't going to forgive the woman who did wage total war on him and killed his son, leaving his kingdom uninhabitable just because someone else ordered her to, someone who ceded operational control to her at that. She and the Forsaken at large are the ones actually responsible for the course of all but the very start of the war with Gilneas in terms of method, Garrosh played no part past the very initial stage where the Gilneas were still repelling them.

    Even if we accept the premise that Garrosh would've waged the war too to a similar result, your argument if anything shows that Genn'd have preferred him in charge, since he'd have spent the Forsaken as fodder in a conventional war and wouldn't have used the plague so his land wouldn't turn into a waste. Genn had better chances against a Garrosh-led attack and even if he'd lost the situation'd be very different from his capital being either a gassed out hellhole or a set of operating tables for the Forsaken to stitch those not liquified into aboms. Sylvanas, by maximizing what's best for her people and trying to extract the most value out of the Gilneans as possible waged a more indiscriminate war more effectively than Garrosh would have in the same spot and this adds to Genn hating her, it doesn't detract from it.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-04-21 at 11:12 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Her portrayal in this book was dumb... ( SPOILERS FOR NON READERS !!!!!!!!!!!)

    Talanji : " Blood trolls are attempting to kill me... Bwonsamdi helps me "
    Bwon : " Listen Talanji, call the horde for help they will help you, blood trolls are undermining my power I'm weakened "
    Talanji : ' No I won't be doing that, Zandalar is strong ! "

    *murder attempt on her*

    Talanji : " Bwonsamdi help me ! "
    Bwon : " I told you to call the horde.. "
    Talanji : "No, we are strong "

    * another attack *

    Bwon : " Listen Zekhan, told the princess she needs to call the horde, because she's dumb and don't listen to me "

    Zekhan: " ok ! "

    Talanji: * calls the horde*

    Horde : *destroy the blood trolls*

    Talanji : " Bwonsamdi you didn't help me you are useless "

    Bwon : " ... "
    I'm not saying she wasn't. I just say, she did have a vendetta against the Alliance.

  11. #111
    She would if the story telling was good. But it's not, so we get what we get.

  12. #112
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    She would, technically, just like Jaina would against the Horde, and especially Orcs, both have in common that someone prevented/prevents them from such actions.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  13. #113
    She would, but Blizzard kinda forgot

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Based on her portrayal in Shadows Rising she certainly still bears a grudge - not enough to scuttle the delicate and ongoing Alliance/Horde peace process, but more than enough to speak her mind when attending the Horde's council meetings.
    I bet you she wouldn't be treated so justified as Genn Graymane was when he did that very thing, during a world ending invasion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Thank Danuser for that...the entire expansion was about Sylvanas, Sylvanas, and more Sylvanas
    Idk, felt more like Sylvanas, Alliance and Jaina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    She would, technically, just like Jaina would against the Horde, and especially Orcs, both have in common that someone prevented/prevents them from such actions.
    It'd be more like Genn, where after Sylvanas committed the act of killing his son, peace was made and then Genn attacked the Horde starting a new war.

  15. #115
    The amount of Horde biased here is shocking, Alliance lost Varian because they were betrayed by the Horde, Garrosh was stopped by a combined Horde/alliance force. Nuking a town full of civilians is never permissable (Teldrassil and Theramore) and there is no similar Alliance act they destroyed no towns, only horde characters characters were turned into bad guys? So what about Arthas and Illidan? (one was killed one is away keeping a bigger bad in check - and before anyone cries Sylvanas you all know she'll be back as either a bigger bad or a savior in the future)

  16. #116
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormxraven View Post
    The amount of Horde biased here is shocking, Alliance lost Varian because they were betrayed by the Horde, Garrosh was stopped by a combined Horde/alliance force. Nuking a town full of civilians is never permissable (Teldrassil and Theramore) and there is no similar Alliance act they destroyed no towns, only horde characters characters were turned into bad guys? So what about Arthas and Illidan? (one was killed one is away keeping a bigger bad in check - and before anyone cries Sylvanas you all know she'll be back as either a bigger bad or a savior in the future)
    the civilians were already evacuated from Theramore and the only bad thing there was hauling them in Orgrimmar to be tortured to death

    which didn't make sense as to keep them alive for at least a year, the Horde would be feeding them when they were out of resources if I'm not mistaken
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  17. #117
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    It'd be more like Genn, where after Sylvanas committed the act of killing his son, peace was made and then Genn attacked the Horde starting a new war.
    We have four loose triggers (3 Alliance, 1 Horde) in the story plot. Something is bound to happen, at least Horde got rid of some of their problems to the part that it is now imbalanced.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

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