Will Blizzard really listen this time?

[UndedoKoleda]

I think, that in the next year or so, it will become clear if Blizzard really changed their ways or have the same "we know better" mentality which brought us the all time favorite 9.0 Covenants.

People are already voicing their concerns about various aspects of the recently announced expansion Dragonflight. It's apparent that we're far from a release, and they themselves confirmed that they are taking the "when it's ready" approach, so they have plenty of time to work on, add and/or change things.

So far, I have the impression that the most controversial opinions people have are regarding the customization of the new race. Blizzard only showed Human and Blood Elf cosmetic forms(I'm aware that there is a chance these were the only ones ready for the announcement and they indeed have a plan to add other races as well in the alpha/beta), but many people wish that there are more races added as options. This is absolutely doable for such a big company as Blizzard, especially considering that they are not racing against an already set release date. IMO, this should be the first and main clue in the following Alpha and Beta, if Blizzard really wants to listen this time around, or just conveniently ignore the wishes of the players.
Another one is people disliking the "draconic"(in-combat) form of the new race. Blizzard still has time to add more body types to it- for instance a more bulky one.

So, do you think that (not)working on these complains, among many others, could be taken as a clue to whether Blizzard has changed they approach to players feedback, as they keep claiming lately(even in the very recent announcement video)?

[Eurhetemec]

Blizzard have clearly listened already, in a way they've literally never done before, given virtually every major thing this expansion, from no borrowed power to talents to upbeat to no world-ending has been something people moaned about endlessly.

Of course, whatever they do in feature, people will accuse them of not listening. Particularly because of the content pipeline. The content pipeline means it takes about six months to a year for major changes to gameplay or other issues to come through. But if Blizzard take even a month or two, people say they're not listening, so that's going to happen. You're already doing this - you're expecting them to make major changes, in time for release, which is totally unrealistic. Those changes might well happen, but not until after release.

[UndedoKoleda]

Blizzard have clearly listened already, in a way they've literally never done before, given virtually every major thing this expansion, from no borrowed power to talents to upbeat to no world-ending has been something people moaned about endlessly.

Of course, whatever they do in feature, people will accuse them of not listening. Particularly because of the content pipeline. The content pipeline means it takes about six months to a year for major changes to gameplay or other issues to come through. But if Blizzard take even a month or two, people say they're not listening, so that's going to happen. You're already doing this - you're expecting them to make major changes, in time for release, which is totally unrealistic. Those changes might well happen, but not until after release.

Yeah, I disagree.

First of all, I don't consider adding already existing races as cosmetic options(with the slight differences of new hair colors and scales painted on the skin) as a major change. Major change would be to ask them to start working on Player Housing, or any new system like the HoA or Artifacts from Legion.

Second of all, how is it unrealistic for them to make any changes in the expansion as it's obvious that it's still far from even coming close to complete? If there is a good time to make changes, it's right now. Ion himself said that Blizzard is taking a "when it's ready" approach(it's on the front page of MMOChamp), so they haven't commit to a release date yet, it's the perfect opportunity to work on the feedback they're getting and improve the features.

[MrLachyG]

From what we have seen there are definitely indications they are. No more borrowed power, flying from the start are two big points proving that. However I am still optimistically cautious at this point. Dragonflights alpha and beta and how they handle feedback will be the true test.

[Eurhetemec]

Yeah, I disagree.

First of all, I don't consider adding already existing races as cosmetic options(with the slight differences of new hair colors and scales painted on the skin) as a major change. Major change would be to ask them to start working on Player Housing, or any new system like the HoA or Artifacts from Legion.

Second of all, how is it unrealistic for them to make any changes in the expansion as it's obvious that it's still far from even coming close to complete? If there is a good time to make changes, it's right now. Ion himself said that Blizzard is taking a "when it's ready" approach(it's on the front page of MMOChamp), so they haven't commit to a release date yet, it's the perfect opportunity to work on the feedback they're getting and improve the features.

You disagree because you have completely unrealistic beliefs and expectations.

Player housing would be a multi-year job, that's not major, that's expansion-worthy by itself.

Second of all, how is it unrealistic for them to make any changes in the expansion as it's obvious that it's still far from even coming close to complete?

Because at some point they have to feature-lock and content-lock.

And that point is likely past. Yeah, they still have development to go, but in terms of major features (and again, you being ridiculous and silly about what "major" means is just on you, it doesn't have any bearing on reality), they've either locked or will be locking in the next few months. Genuinely minor stuff like extra classes for existing races, sure. I expect we might see some more cosmetic options for Dracthyr, but probably not a lot. Adding an entirely new "bulky" form with different animations is certainly not likely to be possible before content-lock. It might squeak in, but it'll be narrow. And given how contradictory a lot of the demands are, I wouldn't count on it.

[Al Gorefiend]

Saw a similar thread before both BfA and Shadowlands, by the way

[sensei-]

Blizzard have clearly listened already, in a way they've literally never done before, given virtually every major thing this expansion, from no borrowed power to talents to upbeat to no world-ending has been something people moaned about endlessly.

Of course, whatever they do in feature, people will accuse them of not listening. Particularly because of the content pipeline. The content pipeline means it takes about six months to a year for major changes to gameplay or other issues to come through. But if Blizzard take even a month or two, people say they're not listening, so that's going to happen. You're already doing this - you're expecting them to make major changes, in time for release, which is totally unrealistic. Those changes might well happen, but not until after release.

Well said. The whiners are just moving the goal posts. Most of the previously highly critical streamers have already talked about this in public. Asmongold last night was clear that him being positive about the new expansion to a game that he's always played and loved caused a huge uproar in his fuelled by negativity -fanbase. Somehow people are more entertained about constantly shitting on a company, person or a game, instead of just being honest and giving everyone and everything a chance. If you don't like Dragonflight, don't play it. But don't act you know today it will be bad, because you don't. And don't act that Blizzard hasn't been listening and changed, because they have. Every concern the players have had has been addressed preliminarily. Only time will tell what the end product will be, but so far it looks great.

[Eurhetemec]

Saw a similar thread before both BfA and Shadowlands, by the way

The major difference here is virtually everything about this expansion is "We fixed the thing you were mad about", whereas every expansion prior to that was "We did some stuff we think is cool, fuck you if you don't like it", essentially, and BfA/SL really didn't do much to answer player concerns about anything.

[UndedoKoleda]

You disagree because you have completely unrealistic beliefs and expectations.

Player housing would be a multi-year job, that's not major, that's expansion-worthy by itself.

Yeah, exactly. This is not Player Housing or any other system in the game, which needs implementations, balancing and ton of other adjustments. It's literally an already existing model update, not even creating an entirely new one. Blizzard do this in all of their major patches, it ludicrous to think that they lack the resources to do it in a span between 8 months to an year.

Because at some point they have to feature-lock and content-lock.

And that point is likely past. Yeah, they still have development to go, but in terms of major features (and again, you being ridiculous and silly about what "major" means is just on you, it doesn't have any bearing on reality), they've either locked or will be locking in the next few months. Genuinely minor stuff like extra classes for existing races, sure. I expect we might see some more cosmetic options for Dracthyr, but probably not a lot. Adding an entirely new "bulky" form with different animations is certainly not likely to be possible before content-lock. It might squeak in, but it'll be narrow. And given how contradictory a lot of the demands are, I wouldn't count on it.

They literally haven't even started the Alpha tests. Nothing at all, apart from the expansion theme is locked. We've seen this numerous times in the past. In WoD- they literally announced Blade Spire and Karabor as the Horde and Alliance capitals for the expansion, then changed their minds and made the Ashran cities instead. That alone is far more work than some extra customization for a single race.

You are too eager and quick to come with excuses on Blizzard's behalf, which at this point is unwarranted. As I said, they likely have at the very least 8 months(likely much more) till the release, that is plenty of time to tweak some models.

[shadowmatrix]

How can and why would you listen to a group who change the goal posts every other week? No matter what happens there will some youtube video talking about blizzard not listening with a bunch of people calling for some devs to be fired. Those people will then go play a MMO that does exactly what they complained about and praise it to death because it isn't Blizzard.

[Rageonit]

They literally haven't even started the Alpha tests.

How do you exactly imagine this works? That they wait to announce Alpha while twitching their fingers and doing zero work? Is it so difficult to understand that they have work planned since now to the release day and beyond? Do you think they only work half time while waiting on player input to fill the rest of the day with work on features they never even planned to do? If they decide to do something they didn't plan to do, it will come at a cost of something they already HAVE to do. That means scrapping some other content - or delaying the release. For what? For more customization options part of the playerbase demands? Do you realistically expect that to happen?

If plenty of players ask for more customization options, it might happen in the future, sure - but only when they finish what they are doing right now and decide on what to do next.

[Athorha]

I'm sure someone thought of the idea of a maghar playable orc back in bc and it wouldn't have taken much to add another skin. They didn't because why give players something they want earlier than they need to give it, or sooner than they are capable of implementing at their desired quality. It's odd when critiques about gameplay flavour cross the line of lore and story, and people just dismiss things as being interchangeable and still remaining cohesive to a balanced plot. It'd be cool if evokers could be a tauren like ebonhorn... but then he'd be less special. Maybe we'll realize what makes him special, maybe not... but we have 4 napkins worth of information, of which maybe 2 lines imply future story and people are already adding their 2c screaming the sky is falling, blizz doesn't know what their players want?

[glowpipe]

No new systems and borrowed powers in the reveal. They already listened

[kamuimac]

I think, that in the next year or so, it will become clear if Blizzard really changed their ways or have the same "we know better" mentality which brought us the all time favorite 9.0 Covenants.

People are already voicing their concerns about various aspects of the recently announced expansion Dragonflight. It's apparent that we're far from a release, and they themselves confirmed that they are taking the "when it's ready" approach, so they have plenty of time to work on, add and/or change things.

So far, I have the impression that the most controversial opinions people have are regarding the customization of the new race. Blizzard only showed Human and Blood Elf cosmetic forms(I'm aware that there is a chance these were the only ones ready for the announcement and they indeed have a plan to add other races as well in the alpha/beta), but many people wish that there are more races added as options. This is absolutely doable for such a big company as Blizzard, especially considering that they are not racing against an already set release date. IMO, this should be the first and main clue in the following Alpha and Beta, if Blizzard really wants to listen this time around, or just conveniently ignore the wishes of the players.
Another one is people disliking the "draconic"(in-combat) form of the new race. Blizzard still has time to add more body types to it- for instance a more bulky one.

So, do you think that (not)working on these complains, among many others, could be taken as a clue to whether Blizzard has changed they approach to players feedback, as they keep claiming lately(even in the very recent announcement video)?

ofc not - them listening is nothing but PR bs

best example is ultra bad change in wolk aka removal of casual favourite lfd system that allowed milions to do dungeons.

this is a sign that they still hate casual and want them to play FF14 not wow.

untill Ion is fired nothing will change

[Schmilblick]

For me, they are clearly on the right way, no borrowed power, flying at the start and PvP is getting back to wod version, which was great.

[kamuimac]

The major difference here is virtually everything about this expansion is "We fixed the thing you were mad about", whereas every expansion prior to that was "We did some stuff we think is cool, fuck you if you don't like it", essentially, and BfA/SL really didn't do much to answer player concerns about anything.

they didnt fix anything - there was nothing about content for casuals , making game more fun and enjoyable to masses.

it was just generic - here are few new zones , here you have new ugly class/race , here you have customisable dragon which is basicly next iteration of customizable panther from mechagon . and vague speach about flying which suggest that normal flying will be disabled and only way to fly will be through new mount - most likely timegated for 3 months again by rep etc .

and ye - the failure and hype killed in form of lfd removal in wolk classic.

they fixed nothing. nada , zero , null from casual point of view - and made wolk much worse.

it was complete PR disaster.

[UndedoKoleda]

How can and why would you listen to a group who change the goal posts every other week? No matter what happens there will some youtube video talking about blizzard not listening with a bunch of people calling for some devs to be fired. Those people will then go play a MMO that does exactly what they complained about and praise it to death because it isn't Blizzard.

This is exactly the mindset that gave us the 9.0 Covenants. In the end, Blizzard themselves admitted that it was a mistake and that they had to listen to the feedback given by the players, hence 9.1.5.

How do you exactly imagine this works? That they wait to announce Alpha while twitching their fingers and doing zero work? Is it so difficult to understand that they have work planned since now to the release day and beyond? Do you think they only work half time while waiting on player input to fill the rest of the day with work on features they never even planned to do? If they decide to do something they didn't plan to do, it will come at a cost of something they already HAVE to do. That means scrapping some other content - or delaying the release. For what? For more customization options part of the playerbase demand? Do you realistically expect that to happen?

If plenty of player asks for more customization options, it might happen in the future, sure - but only when they finish what they are doing right now and decide on what to do next.

I imagine that this is exactly why the Alpha Test and the Beta Test are for. The game to be tested and feedback to be given back to Blizzard. Do you think that they haven't accounted that there will be things needed to be changed or even added during development? It is always anticipated that there might be hiccups in the development process.

This is also a reason why they haven't announced release date for now, to have some freedom with the development, without having to worry about deadlines.

[klaps_05]

Too early to tell as they havent unveiled all the upcoming power systems. Those will clearly show which direction blizzard is going.

[Rageonit]

they didnt fix anything - there was nothing about content for casuals , making game more fun and enjoyable to masses

People often complain that Blizzard cares about money and not the game.
Well here's a thought. Catering to casuals is exactly caring about money and not the game. From my point of view, WoW doesn't need more casual content to be better. Casuals is such a broad group that you wouldn't even know how to please them all (I'd argue it's impossible). I'd rather have WoW be about things like dungeons and raids - focus on that, make that great. At least then your goal is clear and actually achievable.

[ercarp]

I'll make my decision on that when I see improvements made to the Dracthyr.

The presentation itself didn't really feel like it answered any of the feedback they've received over the past couple of years. Maybe a little bit with the absence of a new borrowed power system, but I never thought that borrowed power was inherently bad, just that BfA and SL failed to implement it well.