"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Mojo03]

I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.

[Sorrior]

I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.

This right here and wow USED to have all of this bar maybe the last one and even then it still had a damn good story told in game.

Though i'd add also to just be a sellsword/adventurer again

[ClassicPeon]

Not really given the sgeer desparity in ilv these days.

Back then you chose what you got also literally everything rewarded points to get gear that by todays standards would likely be heroic ilv even for just doing dailies

Yes really - you gear up much faster from doing Zereth mortis then you ever did back then.

The ilvl difference doesnt mean anything in this context. You can get 230+ ilvl literally the moment you step into zereth mortis which is an insane catchup

[dragonflight10]

I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.

no one cares what you want, you sound like you do wq/lfr all day and want to gamer to cater to your specific stupid fantasy needs

[Sorrior]

Yes really - you gear up much faster from doing Zereth mortis then you ever did back then.

The ilvl difference doesnt mean anything in this context. You can get 230+ ilvl literally the moment you step into zereth mortis which is an insane catchup

Heh i think you miss the point. It's not about the ilv per se to some. It's about having things to work towards sans any time gating...And being able to get gear/work for things no matter.

I guess another way to put it is choices. Right now there are 2-3 ways to get gear including locations.

Back then there were dailies of which you chose what ones to do, raids, pvp, dungeons(normal or hard mode both worked). Literally everything bar leveling quests helped you get better gear even if it took mire time.

Today you have pvp, mythic dungeons, zeris mortis(one area instead of just picking whatever you wanted), mythic plus.

Oh and tbe vault which is rng central.

The same amount of just do whatever and you'll still get stronger/better gear just isn't there anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

no one cares what you want, you sound like you do wq/lfr all day and want to gamer to cater to your specific stupid fantasy needs

As i keep trying to point out time was doing stuff like that could net you what would by todays standards be heroic gear.

It would take alot longer but still do it.

[ClassicPeon]

Heh i think you miss the point. It's not about the ilv per se to some. It's about having things to work towards sans any time gating...And being able to get gear/work for things no matter.

I guess another way to put it is choices. Right now there are 2-3 ways to get gear including locations.

Back then there were dailies of which you chose what ones to do, raids, pvp, dungeons(normal or hard mode both worked). Literally everything bar leveling quests helped you get better gear even if it took mire time.

Today you have pvp, mythic dungeons, zeris mortis(one area instead of just picking whatever you wanted), mythic plus.

Oh and tbe vault which is rng central.

The same amount of just do whatever and you'll still get stronger/better gear just isn't there anymore.

- - - Updated - - -



As i keep trying to point out time was doing stuff like that could net you what would by todays standards be heroic gear.

It would take alot longer but still do it.

You arent making a very good case here mate.

Back then you had:
Dungeons, pvp, raids and the extremely limited amount of items you could get from world farming.

Today you have:
Dungeons, pvp, Raids, world quests, Zereth Mortis questline, Zereth Mortus Treasures, World bosses and Zereth Mortis Rares. You also have crafting of epic gear and of legendaries. I'm even going to ignore the Vault beacuse its a shit system btw.

You can get more gear from m+ then you could from the ICC dungeons, you can get WAY more gear from zereth mortis then you could from world content back then. You can make 2 legendaries completely outside the raid. I mean...

[terminaltrip421]

ilvl - people are acting like getting the new low-end higher ilvl means anything outside of prog-play. because of world creatures scaling up with each patch it's an absolute must because the world is overtuned and there's really no outgearing it anymore just being geared enough to more readily survive. when we used to get powerful gear we felt powerful out in the world. not really anymore.

[JustaWarlock]

IDK dude, the fact they're not forcing another power system(s) onto us is probably the biggest W they can get from me right now.

The dragonriding system is going to be a massive timegated power grind. It will affect player power because it locks accessing locations behind it.

[Vorkreist]

The dragonriding system is going to be a massive timegated power grind. It will affect player power because it locks accessing locations behind it.

Patch x.1 - x.2 . Due to unconventional weather conditions in the new patch area , the player's dragon has to learn how to fly again by working closely with the resident factions.

[ippollite]

On the 'solo-player' in an mmo. I want to kind of justify this play style (since its mine and im kind of biased). Firstly, the draw of an mmo isnt just the competitive elements, but also features like 'shared persistent world', 'avatar permanence' and 'longstanding and continual updates'. Or to put it more cynically, 'sunk cost' and 'addiction'. I like my characters. They have a kind of crypto story existing in the world for such a long period of time, and its one that actually invests me into keeping them updated. I love my shammy spacegoat from TBC. I HATE playing it in the world, mind you. I just spent the past week leveling her through the 50-60 story as resto without running a dungeon and it was ugly. But she's resto. Thats the character i fell in love with back in TBC (particularly in pvp). Switching to enhance or elemental purely for the expedience isnt even a thought in my head. She is a resto shammy, she will not change (though she now hates grouping and helping other people for some reason or other). Thats the nature of avatar permanence.

Secondly, ive seen it mentioned either here or in another thread: Bartle's taxonomy. I'd say im more of the explorer/immersion playstyle. So if the discussion on 'solo players' is too loaded (and often descends into an argument that "its an MMO!!! go play a single player rpg!"), then perhaps we could discuss it in those terms. By which i mean, have explorers lost a little of what drew them into the game all the way back? The competitive players and killers have the game of their dreams. Well... maybe less so the killers with the introduction of war mode which really deprived them of a lot of their fun (pvp servers once upon a time had a function). But the competitive players have been fed constantly. Meanwhile the social players are stuck in a crypto instanced-lobby game, whilst explorers/immersion players are stuck in this fun house mirror of the actual (competitive) game.
Perhaps this explains why the game currently feels pretty unsatisfying even to its hardcore playerbase (by which i mean players who've been playing the game for many many years - not the competitive hardcore).

[neescher]

2 hours of presentation about the new expansion, and about 10 seconds of those 2 hours were the words "there will be 8 new dungeons and a new raid".

Response:
"OH GREAT another raider's expansion. When will they stop catering to the 5%?"

wtf?

[scubi666stacy]

On the 'solo-player' in an mmo. I want to kind of justify this play style (since its mine and im kind of biased). Firstly, the draw of an mmo isnt just the competitive elements, but also features like 'shared persistent world', 'avatar permanence' and 'longstanding and continual updates'. Or to put it more cynically, 'sunk cost' and 'addiction'. I like my characters. They have a kind of crypto story existing in the world for such a long period of time, and its one that actually invests me into keeping them updated. I love my shammy spacegoat from TBC. I HATE playing it in the world, mind you. I just spent the past week leveling her through the 50-60 story as resto without running a dungeon and it was ugly. But she's resto. Thats the character i fell in love with back in TBC (particularly in pvp). Switching to enhance or elemental purely for the expedience isnt even a thought in my head. She is a resto shammy, she will not change (though she now hates grouping and helping other people for some reason or other). Thats the nature of avatar permanence.

Secondly, ive seen it mentioned either here or in another thread: Bartle's taxonomy. I'd say im more of the explorer/immersion playstyle. So if the discussion on 'solo players' is too loaded (and often descends into an argument that "its an MMO!!! go play a single player rpg!"), then perhaps we could discuss it in those terms. By which i mean, have explorers lost a little of what drew them into the game all the way back? The competitive players and killers have the game of their dreams. Well... maybe less so the killers with the introduction of war mode which really deprived them of a lot of their fun (pvp servers once upon a time had a function). But the competitive players have been fed constantly. Meanwhile the social players are stuck in a crypto instanced-lobby game, whilst explorers/immersion players are stuck in this fun house mirror of the actual (competitive) game.
Perhaps this explains why the game currently feels pretty unsatisfying even to its hardcore playerbase (by which i mean players who've been playing the game for many many years - not the competitive hardcore).

I feel you.

I am also really burned out on having to farm up things on multiple characters again and again to be able to get to some cosmetic stuff I cannot get on my main character (because of gear restrictions or faction / race restrictions or the inability to do all professions on one character). I have stories in my mind for my characters, but currently they are all in a limbo because Shadowlands killed my motivation to do anything. The grind was just too much. I somehow managed the 15+ Keymaster achievement in the 1st season on my main, but did not even try on any of my alts I got to max level and somehow decent gear in that time. I also get sick and tired when I even think of leveling characters again, did not had that feeling ever before. Sure, leveling has been quite boring most of the time, but it just went by, especially when the Pathfinder limitations finally went away. In SL, it was too little and too late and I cannot even find motivation to unlock flying in ZM on my main. When I think about Legion, where I have been playing alts galore, BfA has already been a depressing condition, but I have at least managed to level up most of my Horde alts and one Alliance (about 29 max level characters in total) and even get 2 allied races to max level or at least their heritage set. Now I only have 5 characters at max level and that's it.

While I find some ideas of Dragonflight interesting and I even know which one of my alts to delete to get me an Evoker character for my collection, I really don't know if I will play the next expansion or not. And I have been playing WoW since the end of 2005 almost without any breaks (except for one burnout phase in MoP).

[Relgzyh]

Ideally:
1. More mage tower challenges that scale up to mythic level of gear drop with drops not static loot
2. 1-2-3 man max scenarios that scale up to mythic
3. M+ with bot healer and tank
4. RBG solo queue
5. Automatic grouping systems with no interaction
6. Full removal of chat as a UI option

That’s to name a few. I am not asking for easier life I am in favor of the choice to not interact with the community to be respected.

Plain and simple what do players want?
1. Good time
2. Some gear for their effort

So why should both these things go through the whims of other players when it is a known fact the other players will abuse this kind of power?

You are playing the wrong game. Lost Ark has 95% solo content, WoW is a team game, you can already play M+0 and ignore the chat.

[crusadernero]

I feel you.

I am also really burned out on having to farm up things on multiple characters again and again to be able to get to some cosmetic stuff I cannot get on my main character (because of gear restrictions or faction / race restrictions or the inability to do all professions on one character). I have stories in my mind for my characters, but currently they are all in a limbo because Shadowlands killed my motivation to do anything. The grind was just too much. I somehow managed the 15+ Keymaster achievement in the 1st season on my main, but did not even try on any of my alts I got to max level and somehow decent gear in that time. I also get sick and tired when I even think of leveling characters again, did not had that feeling ever before. Sure, leveling has been quite boring most of the time, but it just went by, especially when the Pathfinder limitations finally went away. In SL, it was too little and too late and I cannot even find motivation to unlock flying in ZM on my main. When I think about Legion, where I have been playing alts galore, BfA has already been a depressing condition, but I have at least managed to level up most of my Horde alts and one Alliance (about 29 max level characters in total) and even get 2 allied races to max level or at least their heritage set. Now I only have 5 characters at max level and that's it.

While I find some ideas of Dragonflight interesting and I even know which one of my alts to delete to get me an Evoker character for my collection, I really don't know if I will play the next expansion or not. And I have been playing WoW since the end of 2005 almost without any breaks (except for one burnout phase in MoP).

Replayability in the game via alts is critical for me. Even between specs. In SL one had to farm legendary for main spec+offspecs. THEN farm it for your alts. Over the years I have always stayed around playing wow if there was easy enough to play alts at max level. When theres been grindy stuff one had to do, I didnt do them on any alt. Sometimes I did the grind on one ally char and one horde char.

Since the last couple of xpacs have been shit for alts, I just quit.

[Frozenbeef]

I just hope there's more solo endgame content, visions in BFA were great as i could progress over the weeks and raise the difficulty as needed with better rewards.

Then shadowlands had nothing to replace that (or at least it didn't the last time i played in 2020, not sure if this has changed since release) Bg's were great but then when you hit a point you were forced into Arena's.

Pretty much if things stay how they are I'll just buy the expansion, play for a month and then go to other games as there's nothing keeping me invested.

[Sorrior]

You arent making a very good case here mate.

Back then you had:
Dungeons, pvp, raids and the extremely limited amount of items you could get from world farming.

Today you have:
Dungeons, pvp, Raids, world quests, Zereth Mortis questline, Zereth Mortus Treasures, World bosses and Zereth Mortis Rares. You also have crafting of epic gear and of legendaries. I'm even going to ignore the Vault beacuse its a shit system btw.

You can get more gear from m+ then you could from the ICC dungeons, you can get WAY more gear from zereth mortis then you could from world content back then. You can make 2 legendaries completely outside the raid. I mean...

...You are missing the point here.

It's about freedom to choose how, to not be overly behind and be able to know what you'll get no natter what you do(and mythic+ is not everyones cup of tea)

Many seem to forget even the most casual of content once gave decent enough gear and still better then what you get today(as in equivelant to todays heroic gear)

Legendaries weren't a thing back then so not even sure why you focus so much on them unless ilv is your only real concern and not how it's acquired.

Some people want to be able to log in bum out some gametime on mains/alts with some simple dailies/wqs and progress a bit more every day.

The old point system worked for that. And it worked better then an rng vault who depends purely on doing very specific content.

No sane person is saying full mythic level gear but many are saying the current system doesn't work/isn't as fun for them.

[terminaltrip421]

I'm the kinds of player who can always find something like find 'mog for all of my planned 50 characters (and work on leveling and gearing them) so forcing tempo and timegates just make me want to quit as they generally stand in the way of what I want to do.

[cordrann]

Arguing an MMORPG should focus more on solo content is kind of like arguing that an FPS game should focus more on jumping. Did people forget what genre they were playing? WoW at its core is meant to be a social gaming experience with groups of people. It already does more to cater to solo play than many MMOs out there, and if solo gaming experiences are your preferred style, MMOs in general probably aren't for you in the first place.

[ClassicPeon]

...You are missing the point here.

It's about freedom to choose how, to not be overly behind and be able to know what you'll get no natter what you do(and mythic+ is not everyones cup of tea)

You have the exact same freedom today - you have even more ways of gearing up. As an example i've recently geared an alt to 240 ilvl without touching anything endgame related. I didnt even have that ilvl when we started our first raid in normal Sepulcher.

Many seem to forget even the most casual of content once gave decent enough gear and still better then what you get today(as in equivelant to todays heroic gear)

Todays hc is the same difficulty as that times hc was. Todays mythic didnt exist back then. You couldnt get hc ilvl gear back then if you didnt pvp or raid.
The most casual content can easily get you to 250 ilvl. Thats really, really fucking good.

Legendaries weren't a thing back then so not even sure why you focus so much on them unless ilv is your only real concern and not how it's acquired.

Legendaries have been a thing since vanilla wow. You must not play much huh :/

Some people want to be able to log in bum out some gametime on mains/alts with some simple dailies/wqs and progress a bit more every day.

There is more stuff to do for casuals today then there ever has been before.

The old point system worked for that. And it worked better then an rng vault who depends purely on doing very specific content.

The vault sucks. I agree. It should be removed.

No sane person is saying full mythic level gear but many are saying the current system doesn't work/isn't as fun for them.[

You can get hc ilvl loot within a few months of playing with virtually no hard content investment. There are the weekly quests from besides the vault, you can do lfr, you can do low lvl m+ and valor upgrade it, there is the weekly world boss, you can do professions, you can do rares in zereth mortis, you can do chests in zereth mortis, you can buy gear from the vendor in zereth mortis with stuff you grind from zereth mortis.

[Magnificent Madmartegan]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

What do you mean not a single word about casual/solo players? I somehow don't think that dragonriding is going to matter in a mythic plus or a raid?!?! They're talking about giant zones, why would those matter to Raiders or mythic plusers?!?! They talked about reputations and learning about a older race of centaurs and tuskars... once again, why would any of that matter to raiders? They talk about all the exploration out there to do, finding treasures and secrets and crafting hubs where you actually see other players use their professions.... what does any of that have to do or matter to raiders??? Literally everything they've talked about has more to do with "casual" or "solo players" than raiders. The only thing they talked about that matters to raiders is that there's going to be 8 dungeons at launch and the mythic plus rotation and some concept art/generic info about the first raid. EVERYTHING else they talked about and showed has more to do with "casuals" then the "5 percenters"....