"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Dakara]

LFR had dropped tier for as long as tier existed save for WoD specifically; it did in Legion for instance, and does in 9.2. And if you advance the campaign you unlock the Creation Catalyst which allows you to convert items to tier at an about 1/week rate.

It's a far cry above, say, Wrath where the only way for casual players to get tier was to either raid or run 1 dungeon a day for like 20 days per piece. It's easier than ever for a casual player to gear up. I've no idea where this fantasy that the game exclusively caters to the hardcore comes from.

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

[Jastall]

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

I can't speak for PvP as I avoid it like the plague, but random dungeons have never been rewarding besides entry level gear- except in Cataclysm I guess, where on the flipside the random Heroics were too hard for most players. I suppose they could drop gear you can upgrade via Valor as well as a small amount of said currency to allow for slow and steady gear progression- I wouldn't be against it. But that'll by itself make them the most relevant to gear progression they've ever been.

Also, most of your post was about tier sets, so it's natural people responded in kind. It's not calling you out on anything to inform you of what's actually happening in-game.

[Celement]

I'll take a stab at it. Raids and to a lesser extent M+ have been designed to keep the people that run them more engaged over the entire course of a patch. Solo and world content is not really like that. Occasionally, a patch zone gets released that can be done in a few days and then you're done (unless you want to do raids hence raid or die design). I think having content and rewards that would stretch out world and casual play for more of a patch or launch content would be a popular thing with a lot of players. Not all, of course, but quite a few. The design clearly doesn't even try to do this although lately if you're a collector of mounts/pets this last patch should be your thing.

There's all kinds of ways to do this. They've made a start with changes to professions but in my view it's only a start. There could be random events, housing/base building and other things. One only needs to look around at the feature sets of other MMO's to see ways to get it done.

To be clear I don't have any agenda about M+ and raids. They're fine. Expansions, however, tend to have progression paths through them and in WoW's case all of those paths seem to lead to raiding. If you don't raid, then you're out of luck and quit for a few months. That's OK too but there is a clear business case for doing something to keep casual players around for longer.

I think the problem is power progression is all that really interests most players till they cap it if we peel back the curtains.

Look at WoD the expansion I would argue added more features for casual players then any other. World treasures, rare mobs dropping toys,mounts,transmogs and more scattered around the world. Garrison invasions and extremely powerful rewards via apexsis crystals.

None of that mattered in fact most of it went unnoticed. The problem is you see the casual as a normal person looking to play a game to relax and hang out with friends. While for most games that is true. The wow casual isn't that. The best comparison to what a casual is in wow I can think of is a frenzied ghoul.

A long dead thing ripping apart the innocent alive feasting on what it kills dispite never gaining anything from it.

I remember back when they made heroics easier for casuals and casuals didn't run them the mode just became dead... a game mode utterly destroyed for nothing till it was renamed mythic.

Long ago raiders and other good players kept these destructive creatures in check by vote kicking them when they did hunter pet dmg. Sadly blizzard betrayed those stalwart guardians of old... now we have people whining they can't out gear heroic raids or mythic 15s via world quests.

Larping that a casual is fueled by anything but by destructive and poisonous envy in wow is the height of folly. No matter their words their actions reveal them.

[Dakara]

I can't speak for PvP as I avoid it like the plague, but random dungeons have never been rewarding besides entry level gear- except in Cataclysm I guess, where on the flipside the random Heroics were too hard for most players. I suppose they could drop gear you can upgrade via Valor as well as a small amount of said currency to allow for slow and steady gear progression- I wouldn't be against it. But that'll by itself make them the most relevant to gear progression they've ever been.

Also, most of your post was about tier sets, so it's natural people responded in kind. It's not calling you out on anything to inform you of what's actually happening in-game.

For what it’s worth, this is my original post:

MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online (to state the obvious).
It’s does not stand for “Must be in pre-made group and Discord at all times.”

Playing “Solo” could refer to simply doing WQ’s or Queueing solo via a matchmaking system, and everything in between.
Personally, I throughly enjoyed playing both Cata and MOP “Solo” yet still did plenty of group content. It was just mostly via LFD/LFR and the odd PUG. LFD had nice welfare gear for Alts and LFR still had Tier sets. I didn’t care about my Ilvl or how I compared to Top Raiders, I just had fun.

Modern WOW has stripped away that fun over the years as it slowly eroded the rewards from queueable content, including PVP. Naturally, I went back to organised raiding, probably as Blizzard intended, but as is often the case, people quit, guilds collapse and I’m fed up of paying for server/faction transfers to join new guilds, and without the same fallback to Solo as I enjoyed in past expansions I simply quit.

As have many, many others.

There was a lot more in there than Tier sets yet it’s dominated the replies.

[Mojo03]

Great post. When you finally quit WoW and find a game that does that, let us know.

I haven't played in over a year now!

While it doesn't check all these boxes for an MMO - I've been playing No Man Sky lately. If you don't know what that is, I highly suggest trying it out.

It's also B2P (or on Game Pass) with big free updates every couples months + no MTX.

Excellent game and devs/community.

[Soon-TM]

You really think Mythic raiders care what gear you get ?

Judging by the self-styled mythic raiders ITT, they do seem to care a lot.

[MoanaLisa]

I think the problem is power progression is all that really interests most players till they cap it if we peel back the curtains.

I do agree. That's why patches are so often disappointing. SL has been a little better about that but historically it's not been uncommon that the majority of casual progression happened in the first two weeks after getting catch-up gear with little after that even with long grinds.

Your 'frenzied ghoul' business doesn't really track with reality in game since solo players and those who don't go into high-level M+ or beyond LFR are pretty much invisible. Frenzied ghouls wouldn't seem to be a description that's accurate for millions of players who simply quit until new content comes along (which is the business problem). There are lots of people that act out on forums, labeling and condescending to others simply to get a reaction. You don't have to look very far to see that.

[Zyky]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

They didn't even talk about raids or dungeons, soooo your point? lol

[Utrrabbit]

So very this. I mean sure I don't think they will ever give a fuck but when players like me who paid x18 years simply unsub I mean they should really see something is not going well.

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Yes it is and kindly tell me what major achievement can one get SOLO in wow? How far can pugs go? 2k pvp and 2-3 bosses mythic? Even the high end M+ can't be done solo grouping not without major pains that are NOT worth it.

Its an mmo. You want solo play solitaire.

You play an mmo to play with others. No too end reward should be given to solo players.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

Every single thing they announced was aimed at casual gamers.

They did not even say anything about raids or m+. Which btw actually makes uo over 90% of the playerbase. The casual end is much lower.

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

If you play solo you should not get the best gear. That simple.

[Dakara]

If you play solo you should not get the best gear. That simple.

WTF does that comment have to do with my post you quoted? Seriously, point out where I made any reference to “best gear.”

Honestly, my kids have better reading comprehension….

[Celement]

I do agree. That's why patches are so often disappointing. SL has been a little better about that but historically it's not been uncommon that the majority of casual progression happened in the first two weeks after getting catch-up gear with little after that even with long grinds.

Your 'frenzied ghoul' business doesn't really track with reality in game since solo players and those who don't go into high-level M+ or beyond LFR are pretty much invisible. Frenzied ghouls wouldn't seem to be a description that's accurate for millions of players who simply quit until new content comes along (which is the business problem). There are lots of people that act out on forums, labeling and condescending to others simply to get a reaction. You don't have to look very far to see that.

Fair enough I know at times I'm square in that crowd. I think it would also be fair to say my ideal mmo doesn't exist yet. Part of me still pines for the wow of yesteryear. Not the content most of it is exceedingly dull by today's standards but in the attitude most players had. There was a real sense of if you wanted to go do something just go out and do. That crowd now is shockingly thin in game. I don't know if the same crowd got older or a new crowd took there place but players just give up and whine rather then try again.. there is no scuffed pull there is either a smooth run or the group disbands.

There is an annoying amount of trivial content that while not the fault of anyone community is clearly being add to pad things out. I stand by the ghoul comparisons heroic dungeons died the day they were made into the old normal mode and the players who demanded it stopped running them that same day as well.

Honestly I just wish a mmo consistented of more then my friends list and my guild. For how little interactions there are even in mythic + 25 if you replaced pugs with bots I'm not even sure I would catch on. The only place I've seen any kind of community outside of guilds is oddly pvp.

[Motorman]

Its an mmo. You want solo play solitaire.
You play an mmo to play with others. No too end reward should be given to solo players.

Solo players exist whether we like it or not. I am in favor of accepting they exist and keeping them in game for what they can offer.

The solo player is someone who by choice doesn't want to play with others. The game can keep them as a paying customer with indirect benefits to the game (filling the cities, filling the AH, helping the world feel alive) or they can draw these players out.

Whats the point of limiting rewards for such players other than a sense of self-righteousness and vindicative toxic satisfaction that someone is being punished for not being as streamlined and predictable as everyone else. The way I see it we never play with the solo players anyway. They don't queue with us and we would not accept them anyway. But they exist. So please tell me why you want them wiped out. What good will it bring you.

[Sorrior]

WTF does that comment have to do with my post you quoted? Seriously, point out where I made any reference to “best gear.”

Honestly, my kids have better reading comprehension….

I've noticed many here mistake decent as well as how things feel to do with best and optimized ways to do things.

[potis]

In earlier iterations of the game, casuals could buy the second best gear in the game with badges or valor points. It took months, at which point the raiders had already had their fun with that gear and gotten bored of it. The important part of that system is that it gave casuals something to work towards over a long period of time, something that didn't feel like scraps but actual quality gear. It didn't matter that the gear was irrelevant when they eventually got it, it was the journey that mattered.

You do realize this has been sped up by miles and you could never buy "Second best gear" but overall a few pieces, unless you min/maxed between PvP and some Valor gear, right, and even then in terms of ilvL, you would still end up exactly as it is now, right, while doing the same irrelevant content that has no reason to be done after the first month of the expansion, right?

Instead of taking 9 months to get the gear, you can get it in 2 months by doing anything, my main gets 252 gear handed to him for existing in the game from a system that isnt even tied to character power, its fucking Pocopoc , add the HC weekly chests and legendaries, i would have a character around 260 without even entering any raid or M+, so drop the bullshit.

What changed with the game is the entitlement of players and these mechanics, you literally have people screaming dear murder that they arent handed Mythic gear the first week, so they can unsub after the first month, you literally have people complaining the game is asking them to play, instead of realizing they are the ones with the problem and they should simply move on with their lives, people have reached such spoilt levels, that instead of accepting they dont want to play the game as much as they think they want, they rather complain to be handed things so they be done so they dont pay 15$.

[Norskygrrl]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

Leaving Ion in charge is so short-sighted. "Dragon riding" is just another way to keep real flying away from players. He is wasting resources on this? Instead of game-play for casual players? He doesn't have a clue about designing an MMO.

[Aydinx2]

But it seems you’re dead set on blasting me over Teir sets, which they’ve only recently brought back, while ignoring every other aspect of my messages. Selective quoting at its best.

Never going to do Normal? First of all, says who? Secondly, have you even read my posts beyond the few sentences you’ve decided to poke holes at? Clearly not.

My entire message was about how rewards from Solo Queue content have been watered down over the years making the content less rewarding for those who play it. Removal of Tier sets from LFR was but one example I mentioned.

Removal of Tier sets is literally the only example you mentioned. You can't gaslight people in a forum where we can read your messages back dude. If you want me to address something else, write something else.

[Glorious Leader]

I think the problem is power progression is all that really interests most players till they cap it if we peel back the curtains.

Look at WoD the expansion I would argue added more features for casual players then any other. World treasures, rare mobs dropping toys,mounts,transmogs and more scattered around the world. Garrison invasions and extremely powerful rewards via apexsis crystals.

The problem is you see the casual as a normal person looking to play a game to relax and hang out with friends.

All hot garbage. WoD offered them nothing and they left. Like do you honestly think people are stupid? The entire game from lvl 1 to max is about grinding more power and then at end game in WoD it suddenly stopped unless you decided to play nice with assholes. It's so easy to shit on other players who more or less want the same thing. I have an idea, no gear, no power progression purely horizontal. I don't think this would be satisfying to anybody. Or better yet. All the time and energy and money they put into raids could be put into other content and the raids could award PURELY cosmetic items.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

They would never announce anything for solo play in an MMORPG's expansion announcement. This was only for major features. Of course there will be a lot more to consider, but I doubt anything as big as the Mage Tower will be since in the opening patch. Luckily that's all evergreen content, so you should have an enormous amount of stuff you can explore at your own pace.
That's kind of why its not a feature of the announcements. Because you have so much stuff that CAN be solo content, it would be pointless to list it all.

[Dakara]

Removal of Tier sets is literally the only example you mentioned. You can't gaslight people in a forum where we can read your messages back dude. If you want me to address something else, write something else.

Try reading back again.

MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online (to state the obvious).
It’s does not stand for “Must be in pre-made group and Discord at all times.”

Playing “Solo” could refer to simply doing WQ’s or Queueing solo via a matchmaking system, and everything in between.
Personally, I throughly enjoyed playing both Cata and MOP “Solo” yet still did plenty of group content. It was just mostly via LFD/LFR and the odd PUG. LFD had nice welfare gear for Alts and LFR still had Tier sets. I didn’t care about my Ilvl or how I compared to Top Raiders, I just had fun.

Modern WOW has stripped away that fun over the years as it slowly eroded the rewards from queueable content, including PVP. Naturally, I went back to organised raiding, probably as Blizzard intended, but as is often the case, people quit, guilds collapse and I’m fed up of paying for server/faction transfers to join new guilds, and without the same fallback to Solo as I enjoyed in past expansions I simply quit.

As have many, many others.

Sure, Tier sets are back in LFR now and I missed it while being un-subbed. But “Literally the only example I mentioned”? C’mon.

[WinningOne]

Grinding for higher tiered gear just for the sake of having better gear is dumb. It's a hamster wheel method of game design which caters to stupid people. The fun is in completing challenging encounters and being rewarded with gear as a side effect of solving a very difficult problem. If you strip everything away that's all encounters are. Mathematical equations in which Blizzard tries to get as close to balancing it out while leaving enough room for the players to have a statistically reasonable chance at things ending up in their favor. That means there are going to be encounters which have a margin of error too narrow for some players to overcome. Blizzard should definitely include encounters which are so difficult only the highest skilled players are capable of completing it. If you happen to be one of the majority of players who don't play at that level it doesn't mean Blizzard hates you.