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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    So what is the problem? They said you can use normal flying in Dragonflight too, just not at the start (which has been the case for many expansions now).
    I think it depends on how and why you play wow. WoW could nuke the open world and I honestly wouldn't be likely to notice till I have an urge to farm transmog.

    It's a speed bump I hit before getting to the content I enjoy. I understand for some it is the focus of their gameplay but for others it's either something they don't consider or think of it as a chore.

    Dragon flying seems like a middle ground much like the jump and glide toys from wod and legion. I'm not saying it's bad or good just what I see it as.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    The moment you quote anything from Asmongold is the moment you lose any and all credibility. That... person, is a complete and utter waist of space. It and others like him are half the reason behind the toxic culture that has been fermenting within the WoW player base for years. They have driven away more players than any supposed mistakes Blizzard has made.
    Not quite sure why people still hang on to the perception that Asmongold perpetuates toxic culture. I mean, maybe at one point in time? But his latest content easily reflects a person who merely 'plays it up' for the audience, and is otherwise just a persona of a 'dudebro', like a Dr. Disrespect.

    Most of Asmongold's commentary on WoW itself is actually quite sensible when he's not outright mocking it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #603
    I'm genuinely curious, a) What does a solo casual player enjoy? Pet battles? Collecting stones? b) Why does a solo player play a massively multiplayer online game?

    Edit: Also, above and beyond all of that, how can a solo player feel so entitled to demand a massively multiplayer game change and cater to him/herself? What sort of a self centered god complex is that?

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    I'm genuinely curious, a) What does a solo casual player enjoy? Pet battles? Collecting stones? b) Why does a solo player play a massively multiplayer online game?

    Edit: Also, above and beyond all of that, how can a solo player feel so entitled to demand a massively multiplayer game change and cater to him/herself? What sort of a self centered god complex is that?
    Because that’s how the game use to be before they changed it to what it is today.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    I'm genuinely curious, a) What does a solo casual player enjoy? Pet battles? Collecting stones? b) Why does a solo player play a massively multiplayer online game?

    Edit: Also, above and beyond all of that, how can a solo player feel so entitled to demand a massively multiplayer game change and cater to him/herself? What sort of a self centered god complex is that?
    Most casuals trend to doing the questing content and story, and otherwise unsub for the rest. There isn't some significant group of casuals who are staying subbed to do collecting and pet battles in between as if we can regard it as the same level of raiding or mythic+ content that lasts throughout the entire expansion. They simply unsub, and come back if there's something new to do like a new major patch release, or simply wait it out to the next expansion.

    When they join the game, it's always in droves, because we're talking about thousands upon thousands of individuals all joining at the same time to do the story content and experience the new stuff of the expansion. And when they leave, it's not some collective decision to do so, it's purely an individual's choice to leave after the content they wish to do is done. It's a collective unsubbing because there's only so much solo-oriented content in the game to actually do, and otherwise most other solo-oriented content like collecting and battle pets have been quite superfluous and not well designed for long-term interest.

    There's no real tangible 'progression' for collecting or battle pets, the way we can literally look at progression that exists for say PVP or Raiding. And the story through quests abruptly hits a dead end, with the story mostly continuing through mandatory group content like dungeons and raids. The lack of a tangible solo progression option cuts out a majority of things to do in the game, and battle pets and collecting are really side option content, like telling a Raider that if they didn't have new Raid content they should run old Raids, or telling a PVPer that there's not gonna be new Arena seasons, but they still have world PVP. It's not tangible progression content, and that's what is lacking for any solo or casual player as an option. Even crafting has become pretty terrible.

    Now, at least Blizzard is improving Crafting, but we will have to see how they execute their new system. If they tie progression too closely to exclusive mats from group content, I can see people still opting to unsub instead of continuing to play, because at the end of the day a casual player may not be as interested in Gear progression as they would be for personal progression like Story questing or Collecting.


    And there isn't any entitlement coming from Casuals. Casuals aren't coming out to express their personal desires at all. They're not enthusiasts, so most of the time we're talking about a group of players that have zero representation in these discussions. There's really nothing to blame on casuals because they're not asking for any changes.

    But they are a significant enough of a group to the overall community that should have optional content to allow them to stick around, because ultimately they do contribute to the other social aspects of WoW. They contribute to the economy, they contribute to the feeling of Major cities and hubs feeling populated and alive, they contribute to health of a server. And these are important because no one wants to play on a 'dead server' just because of the fact a majority of people on the server happen to be casuals who have no more reason to stay subbed in the game.


    And as some are saying now, the reason why most unsub is because the game had taken a very group-content centric end game in the past decade or so, whereas content used to be a lot more open ended and 'play how you want'. 9.2 definitely helped steer in the right direction, and they kinda need to push it further if they want to recapture what WoW used to be. Like, Raids used to be the optional end game content, whereas today they're designed to be the end-all be-all end game content for all players; a big reason why LFR and group finder systems exist today.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-13 at 09:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And as some are saying now, the reason why most unsub is because the game had taken a very group-content centric end game in the past decade or so, whereas content used to be a lot more open ended and 'play how you want'. 9.2 definitely helped steer in the right direction, and they kinda need to push it further if they want to recapture what WoW used to be. Like, Raids used to be the optional end game content, whereas today they're designed to be the end-all be-all end game content for all players; a big reason why LFR and group finder systems exist today.
    I think by your own description they unsub because they are casuals and not really personally connected to the game though, right? It actually doesn't have all that much to do with the content. That's kinda what casual is.

    Like I play ESO and Swtor very casually. I quit when i get bored (usually about a month) even if there's new content because I'm just not that personally invested in the game other than getting some cute new outfits and playing the main story. I am 100% not worth chasing as a customer in those games and I freely admit it! I come back for a new expansion, give them a little money, and leave. There's nothing the devs could realistically change (without alienating their existing playerbase) to make me play more.

    Every game has a lot of these players. Much better to serve your customers who actually want to play (or figure out a way to convert one into the other, I suppose!)

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    I think by your own description they unsub because they are casuals and not really personally connected to the game though, right? It actually doesn't have all that much to do with the content. That's kinda what casual is.

    Like I play ESO and Swtor very casually. I quit when i get bored (usually about a month) even if there's new content because I'm just not that personally invested in the game other than getting some cute new outfits and playing the main story. I am 100% not worth chasing as a customer in those games and I freely admit it! I come back for a new expansion, give them a little money, and leave. There's nothing the devs could realistically change (without alienating their existing playerbase) to make me play more.

    Every game has a lot of these players. Much better to serve your customers who actually want to play (or figure out a way to convert one into the other, I suppose!)
    Except we know that's not the case with many other MMOs that manage to retain a majority of their casual base through content that is simply more accessible.

    Not gonna name names since this forum has rules against such, but it's not like we are living in a bubble where WoW is the only MMO with a large casual audience that is prone to unsubbing.

    The casual player retention was much better in earlier expansions than it ever is today, and part of that is because the systems they designed have been pushing casuals away, and because they were dedicating to providing more 'carrots on a stick' for what you call the 'dedicated fanbase'. And because of that, even longterm WoW veterans like Gabe Newell have openly talked about migrated to other MMOs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibiki View Post
    I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
    Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.
    People been posting this same thread for almost 15 years lmao

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Except we know that's not the case with many other MMOs that manage to retain a majority of their casual base through content that is simply more accessible.
    Do we know this or just assume this? Feels like everyone just sees what they want.

    I suppose that is the story of the forum, though!

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Do we know this or just assume this? Feels like everyone just sees what they want.

    I suppose that is the story of the forum, though!
    Perhaps I phrased wrong then. Not majority of casuals being retained, but a higher percentage than if it did not have that content.

    I mean if we're talking casuals who are going to unsub no matter what, then yeah that's not gonna change. But for the most part, I'm talking about a high percentage of casual players who are merely unsubbing because they feel like their content is done, because there is literally no other alternative than group content.

    There's really no reason why WoW shouldn't have more solo-oriented end game progression content, when the entire leveling and exploration content is designed as a solo experience that already appeals to the majority of all players in the game. The majority solos story questing and exploration. And a majority of all players literally sub to the game to experience new story quests and exploration. The majority of players aren't actually resubbing to WoW to do Group content. Like, look at the huge return of players at the beginning of Shadowlands, and the immediate drop offs months into it. People are returning to do the first couple months worth of content, which primarily consists of all the solo viable content available in the game.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-14 at 07:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Perhaps I phrased wrong then. Not majority of casuals being retained, but a higher percentage than if it did not have that content.

    I mean if we're talking casuals who are going to unsub no matter what, then yeah that's not gonna change. But for the most part, I'm talking about a high percentage of casual players who are merely unsubbing because they feel like their content is done, because there is literally no other alternative than group content.
    Or, the casuals who unsub because they feel like they're being snubbed. It's not just that they're not given content, it's the feeling the dev team is deliberately disrespecting them, and designing a game a core element of which is shitting on them, putting them in their place, and making sure they feel inferior.

    Is it any wonder they unsub? This doesn't mean they're flighty or undeserving. If the game were designed with no difficult content and the elite then quit, would that mean the elite were flighty and undeserving?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  12. #612
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    I think by your own description they unsub because they are casuals and not really personally connected to the game though, right? It actually doesn't have all that much to do with the content. That's kinda what casual is.
    It depends on how long they've been playing to some extent. I don't play a lot. I'm aggressively casual and from time to time I take a few months off. However, I have a deep interest and investment in two characters I've been playing for over ten years. So I don't buy the idea that people are not connected to the game because they are whatever casual is not. When any sense of progression stops outside of raiding and M+ then so do I. That has little to do with how connected I am to the game. I'm very connected when I have worthwhile (in my opinion) things to do.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Or, the casuals who unsub because they feel like they're being snubbed. It's not just that they're not given content, it's the feeling the dev team is deliberately disrespecting them, and designing a game a core element of which is shitting on them, putting them in their place, and making sure they feel inferior.

    Is it any wonder they unsub? This doesn't mean they're flighty or undeserving. If the game were designed with no difficult content and the elite then quit, would that mean the elite were flighty and undeserving?
    Anecdotally speaking, the casual players that I have talked to over the years don't really care about game developer politics, they just see this as blanket entertainment, and consume it as it comes. It's like how you treat a movie franchise that you might not be a particular big fan of, but still willing to watch for the sake of entertainment. 'If there's something that interests me I'll check it out'. And frankly, WoW simply does a mediocre job of presenting their progression and end game story in a way that is accessible to most players.

    I don't really get the impression that the casual players I've talked to were feeling spited by Blizzard at all for not having content designed in the way they would like the game to be, in the same way most people don't see a director being particularly spiteful to a casual audience for making a mediocre movie, while a hardcore fan might feel differently and take it personally. Like, the hardcore Star Wars fans I know talk about the Star Wars sequels as if Kathleen Kennedy is personally shitting in their cheerios, while most casual Star Wars fans I know tend to give a blanket 'I liked it' or 'I didn't like it' response without feeling like they were being disrespected. At its worst, they would just see it as a 'bad movie'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It depends on how long they've been playing to some extent. I don't play a lot. I'm aggressively casual and from time to time I take a few months off. However, I have a deep interest and investment in two characters I've been playing for over ten years. So I don't buy the idea that people are not connected to the game because they are whatever casual is not. When any sense of progression stops outside of raiding and M+ then so do I. That has little to do with how connected I am to the game. I'm very connected when I have worthwhile (in my opinion) things to do.
    Out of curiosity, have you been getting the raid gear from ZM and the 291 legendaries and/or crafted stuff?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Anecdotally speaking, the casual players that I have talked to over the years don't really care about game developer politics, they just see this as blanket entertainment, and consume it as it comes. It's like how you treat a movie franchise that you might not be a particular big fan of, but still willing to watch for the sake of entertainment. 'If there's something that interests me I'll check it out'. And frankly, WoW simply does a mediocre job of presenting their progression and end game story in a way that is accessible to most players.

    I don't really get the impression that the casual players I've talked to were feeling spited by Blizzard at all for not having content designed in the way they would like the game to be, in the same way most people don't see a director being particularly spiteful to a casual audience for making a mediocre movie, while a hardcore fan might feel differently and take it personally. Like, the hardcore Star Wars fans I know talk about the Star Wars sequels as if Kathleen Kennedy is personally shitting in their cheerios, while most casual Star Wars fans I know tend to give a blanket 'I liked it' or 'I didn't like it' response without feeling like they were being disrespected. At its worst, they would just see it as a 'bad movie'.
    I think that's pretty accurate. People who know who Ion is and follow patch notes and content creators aren't casual by any meaningful definition. They're more likely to be jaded lifestyle players of a past era.

    That's probably the biggest phenomenon with all IPs, ya? The jaded old schoolers (who are sometimes right!) who are basically forever connected to X even if they hate it. Every tv show thread here is filled with people hate watching stuff lol

  15. #615
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Out of curiosity, have you been getting the raid gear from ZM and the 291 legendaries and/or crafted stuff?
    I will eventually. The phrase in my post about 'worthwhile things' has some depth in it. What I view as worth doing changes from week to week. I have some tolerance for busy work but it's not unlimited.

    EDIT: Obviously I'm in no hurry. At best I play a couple of days a week, sometimes not at all. But to reiterate that doesn't mean that I don't have a connection, a long history, and significant feelings about a game that's been in my life in different degrees for about 13 years.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-05-14 at 08:57 PM.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    But to reiterate that doesn't mean that I don't have a connection, a long history, and significant feelings about a game that's been in my life in different degrees for about 13 years.
    Sorry, but if you don't Mythic raid and time +20s regularly you clearly don't love Warcraft enough and deserve nothing because you'll just quit 5 minutes after a patch or expansion launches anyway, so why should Blizzard give you anything to do in the first place?

    Right?

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Sorry, but if you don't Mythic raid and time +20s regularly you clearly don't love Warcraft enough and deserve nothing because you'll just quit 5 minutes after a patch or expansion launches anyway, so why should Blizzard give you anything to do in the first place?

    Right?
    I suppose some people feel that way. I don’t let it bother me too much because there’s so much gaslighting that goes on. WoW (and your toons) is like family for a lot of people. You don’t need to see your extended family every day to still care about them.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-05-14 at 11:08 PM.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibiki View Post
    I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
    Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.
    I think u dont know what MMORPG stands for, if u wana play solo go play Skyrim or Elden Ring

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Neotart View Post
    I think u dont know what MMORPG stands for, if u wana play solo go play Skyrim or Elden Ring
    The definition literally just means 'Many people playing this same game, online'. How people choose to play online is up to the player, and otherwise not defined as having to group up to do content.

    When the new expansion hits, I'm gonna bet you and most of your buddies going to solo the questing content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The definition literally just means 'Many people playing this same game, online'. How people choose to play online is up to the player, and otherwise not defined as having to group up to do content.

    When the new expansion hits, I'm gonna bet you and most of your buddies going to solo the questing content.
    Uhm it stands for "massively multiplayer online role-playing game", always has. wth
    And yeah u would lose that bet.

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