"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Motorman]

Of course they do. And I dislike this as much as anyone but the problem there stems from blizzard forcing a billion gear loops for them to be able to compete in the WF race. But lets take the WF guilds out of the equation and instead focus on the more "normal" CE guilds on each server that also sell gear.
How does this prevent you from accessing that content? If you think you could be part of such a guild and are prevented of achieving this by the mere fact that said guilds are not recruiting on purpose, I am 110% sure that there are 19 other likeminded players that you could band with and go clear this content. Are the aforementioned CE guilds going to bodyblock the entrance to mythic sepulcher?

Finally we can discuss:

Here is the problem (and not a personal problem as I am a solely arena/RBG player for years)

Most players who are between casual and potent raider are unable or reluctant to make their own guilds and or groups.

This creates a problem (in my eyes): These guys have to resort to either group finder or guild.

Now take into account that in smaller servers the guilds are counted in the fingers of one hand or less. Random groups have little to no success for higher content. Time investment is massive if you are doing the organizing. So, what do these people do? They eventually quit.

So what’s the point I am trying to make: What if (and that’s merely a suggestion) the game realizes and accounts for all the time, organization, lack of resources problems and eliminates the dependency of fixing such issues before one can raid or jump in an RBG.

What if we make RBG 6 man so people can create groups faster.

What if we make it less deterring to lose an RBG and let subtle higher ranking increases that people will enjoy.

What if we make more mage tower style content

What if we make smaller group raiding enticing again.

What if we take into account that pugs have massive fail ratio, identify why the fails and try to fix that part.

What if we stop the boost selling services that plague WoW.


These are mere ideas not even suggestions but most people here are like “oh you want it easy because you are bad”. Like they don’t even listen to understand.

Once upon a time some dev said “let’s have 40 man raids”. 18 years later that’s obsolete. Nothing is set in stone esp in a video game where every rule can be bent. The game should revolve around the evolution of the players lives not the other way around. And in the end of some people don’t want to play with other people they should also be allowed to play and not feel like third class citizens that are just allowed to play the mediocre part of WoW.

[Triceron]

But what is that 70% you re throwing around? What is the 70% that people cannot access by playing solo? t

It's bogus numbers that other people were using that I was merely following in the example of for the sake of argument.

These aren't numbers that I made up, just using for context. If you are legitimately asking, yes they are all made up statistics.

[Motorman]

Gotcha. I can understand ppl wanting things but be realistic. Wow isn't gonna change the way he wants it to. I dont understand ppls obsession with demanding changes on a forum instead of just playing a game that is already the way they want

I am not demanding anything. I shared some ideas. I am not sure why that’s bad and I don’t have a clue who the other guy who keeps trash talking me is I really don’t keep a log of my forum interactions.

[Delever]

Finally we can discuss:

Here is the problem (and not a personal problem as I am a solely arena/RBG player for years)

Most players who are between casual and potent raider are unable or reluctant to make their own guilds and or groups.

This creates a problem (in my eyes): These guys have to resort to either group finder or guild.

Now take into account that in smaller servers the guilds are counted in the fingers of one hand or less. Random groups have little to no success for higher content. Time investment is massive if you are doing the organizing. So, what do these people do? They eventually quit.

So what’s the point I am trying to make: What if (and that’s merely a suggestion) the game realizes and accounts for all the time, organization, lack of resources problems and eliminates the dependency of fixing such issues before one can raid or jump in an RBG.

What if we make RBG 6 man so people can create groups faster.

What if we make it less deterring to lose an RBG and let subtle higher ranking increases that people will enjoy.

What if we make more mage tower style content

What if we make smaller group raiding enticing again.

What if we take into account that pugs have massive fail ratio, identify why the fails and try to fix that part.

What if we stop the boost selling services that plague WoW.


These are mere ideas not even suggestions but most people here are like “oh you want it easy because you are bad”. Like they don’t even listen to understand.

Once upon a time some dev said “let’s have 40 man raids”. 18 years later that’s obsolete. Nothing is set in stone esp in a video game where every rule can be bent. The game should revolve around the evolution of the players lives not the other way around. And in the end of some people don’t want to play with other people they should also be allowed to play and not feel like third class citizens that are just allowed to play the mediocre part of WoW.

Sparked an interesting conversation indeed. I actually see where you re coming from and agree 100% with all of the points you brought up and seem to have misunderstood your initial statement as I saw it merely from the argument between 2 people and did not bother to read all these pages.
I would add:

- Helping small servers by merging them so people have a better chance at finding a guild
- Receiving increased rewards for helping inexperienced players through content. That way, getting a newbie from your random queue doesnt feel deterring but sort of incentivizes you to help them get through it.
- Doubling your point about smaller scale raiding.

I have been playing XIV alongside WoW for the past decade and I found myself raiding more in XIV simply because of the smaller raid structure. I miss 10 man raiding so so much and the best memories I have even as a player who started back in late Vanilla/early TBC and raided hardcore in wrath, my fondest memories are from progressing 10 man heroic raids in mists.

Theres nothing stopping me from doing this in heroic of course but if I want to dabble in mythic then I have to do it in a 20 man group. God how I miss 10 man raids...

[VMSmith]

I wish the game would be designed by those who love MMORPGs. And not by those who only love the raiding or mythic+ minigame.

This sums it all up so well. Before WoW, MMOs had thriving game worlds that we explored, enjoyed, and played in. Warcraft has shrunk the MMO experience down to these minigames, as you call them. And I agree that that's what they are, they should never have become the primary focus of any MMO. The genre is poorer for the fact that Warcraft was so successful and people thought that these instanced content minigames were the reason why and have continually strived to copy that portion, in hopes of similar success.

[ellieg]

I am not demanding anything. I shared some ideas. I am not sure why that’s bad and I don’t have a clue who the other guy who keeps trash talking me is I really don’t keep a log of my forum interactions.

Not specifically you, but there seems to be a group of ppl on here that want to change wow into a different game, instead of just playing a dif game that is already the way they want. Ppl that would walk into a chess enthusiast club, complain that all pieces should act the same cause that's how it is in checkers, but refuse to just go play checkers.

[HansOlo]

Not specifically you, but there seems to be a group of ppl on here that want to change wow into a different game, instead of just playing a dif game that is already the way they want. Ppl that would walk into a chess enthusiast club, complain that all pieces should act the same cause that's how it is in checkers, but refuse to just go play checkers.

I completely agree.

[Triceron]

Can you please stop with this bs? Seriously. Yes, you can choose to play it solo, but it is not its strength and it will NEVER be so. It focuses on group content because single player games don't offer that. So if you want group content, you go to the genres that offer it. If you want strong single player experiences, go play something that focuses on that. It will be a better fit for what you're looking for.
Seriously. This game is NOT supposed to be single player. It offers little content as such. If you buy a single player game you spend up to 100 hrs in it. Maybe more depending on replayability. And then you expect for that price and a monthly fee to get single player content at top quality for the lifespan on an expansion. It doesn't work like that. Single player content will last you just about the same and rest will be grind and repeatable. And what makes repeatable content not boring in this particular genre is engaging with other humans. Whether vs in pvp or cooperatively, in dungeons or raids. If you want to do this, you choose this genre. If you want to play a single player game that is the quality of a single player game that lasts for thousands of hours instead of hundreds, this is not it.

Please, please, do yourself a favour and pick a genre that is designed for what you want. If I play wow, I come here for group content because I have SO many other options for single player games and not that many for good group stuff. Please, stop trying to transform it into something it can never be and moving focus for the one thing it's meant to do right. Just choose something else that is actually designed for what you want.

[And as a side note, to your last remark, I level with my friends as well every patch. Even stuff like ZM I didn't do alone. I don't play this game to solo.]

Honestly, no reason not to allow people to play how they want

Imagine if the RTS games didn't allow you to solo create your own VS AI multiplayer game because 'RTS is balanced for Vs Human PVP!'

It'd be quite ridiculous. It'd be an arbitrary reason to remove solo play options.


I never said the strength of MMO's was Solo play. The strength will always be in being a massive multiplayer game. But that doesn't mean they can't or should stop providing solo viable content for end game.

Mage Tower for example is clearly solo designed content that does not have group play attached. MMO's CAN be designed with substantial solo oriented, end game content. I don't see why the need to complain at having options.

Is it the fear that it will cost you a raid tier? Or that more people would be taking gear away from you? I never understand why people feel the need to get in the way of what really is a simple solution that doesn't affect Grouping in the slightest.


I played Phantasy Star Online 2 and that is an MMO that has solo options for all of it's 'Raid' content. Soloing Bosses is hard as fuck without anyone else there to res you. Grouping is the best and quickest way to get any of the raid content done efficiently, while the solo option is merely there for anyone who chooses to use it. The game doesn't cater to solo players, it merely gives an option to have solo progression. The game also offers multiple difficulty settings for story mode, for those players who aren't looking for loot progression and just want to experience the story.

Solo content is quite common in some of the other MMO's I've seen, so I don't wear the same blinders as people whose only MMO experience is from WoW or the MMOs that follow in WoW's footsteps. To me, it's not as big a deal as those who are against solo options make it to be.


Like for example, WoW could add a Solo copy of LFR with boss damage and raid mechanics tuned lower for easier survival, but boss health remain quite high so it will take much longer to complete solo than any group. I think increased time investment would be a fine trade off for solo-viable lowered difficulty, and you could reward the same gear in both. Solo players can literally spread out their LFR progress over a week, while group LFR players literally get it done in a couple hours time. Same lockouts, so no one can double up on solo and group loot. I think that'd be fair.

It is literally effortless for Blizz, it'd be a literal tick box that activates Solo mode. LFR is already so devoid of mechanics that, if the numbers were tuned right, it practically can be soloed.

[ClownWorld]

Thought this thread was reffering to the woke mob.

[NineSpine]

See, that is what I mean with "factually incorrect".

1) No one, except for some extremists, is demanding for the game to become "casual unfriendly". The demands come exclusively from the "casual" side. Illustrated nicely by the fact that these threads are alwas made by the "casuals".
People on the other side just want a fair reward for the difficulty they do. If you do Heroic and M+ then you invest a lot of time into learning fights and executing them. The gear you get is the reward for this. If someone would get the same gear for, let's say, farming Marrowroot, which requires neither skill nor practice, then that would be incredibly unfair.

That is demanding other people have less fun. You told me I was wrong and then repeated the exact argument I made. What you described is someone saying "Not only do I want rewards, but I want others to get less rewards to make me feel good."

2) The game HAS become more and more casual friendly for years now. You literally can get a raid setbonus now for farming open world currency. But despite all of this, the "casuals" keep opening threads like this. Tell me, when does it end? When is there enough casual friendliness? How much more do the "casuals" need?

Because casuals want gameplay. They want things to do. This isn't about getting raid set bonuses. This is about having a fun set of endgame activities that give meaningful rewards. "Hey we made everything you like to do completely unrewarded, but uh.... set bonus pieces from grinding one zone!" is not the knock-down argument you think it is.

I am flat out certain that the screaming will not end until you can log in and get a set of Mythic raid level gear in your mailbox for the achievment of paying a sub. Probably not even then and that is why these threads are so harmful.

Every time we ask for things to do, you guys start rambling about mythic level raid gear. You impose your obsession with gear and what other people have onto us. It's like someone saying "I wish there was a local soccer league to play in" and you respond "OH SO YOU WANT A SOCCER TROPHY JUST FOR SHITTING YOUR PANTS ON THE FIELD!?!?!?!?!" It's bizarre.

If people do not want to take part in Raids and Dungeons then there is dozens of games they can play that do not focus on them. Why does this one have to change it's core gameplay to please you?
Play FF (which is after all doing everything better then WoW, if you believe these forums) or SWTOR if you prefer solo-content. Let WoW stay the game it has been for 17 years successfully.

Nobody is gating you from anything, but you.

In Final Fantasy almost all I do is play dungeons and raids casually, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Every day I log into FF14, run some casual dungeons for substantive rewards, run some casual raids for substantive rewards, do some casual pvp for substantive rewards. I can't do any of that in WoW, because the game says that if I want to do dungeons, raids, or pvp for substantive rewards I need to do them at the obnoxious organized level. It won't let me do them casually for rewards.

it just sounds very much like you are refusing to understand what we are asking for, and instead inventing this weird strawman who wants to do a daily quest and get a BiS trinket from it.

- - - Updated - - -

They hired developers from very prestigious schools who had years of game development experience. I recommend doing your homework before grabbing random comments and making replies of conjecture.

Jeff Kaplan was a failed writer who was working for his daddy and playing EQ all day.
Kevin Jordan had never worked on a game before.

Who are you talking about?

[Miffinat0r]

Jeff Kaplan was a failed writer who was working for his daddy and playing EQ all day.
Kevin Jordan had never worked on a game before.

Who are you talking about?

Where are people getting Kaplan was some OG MMORPG Dev. He wasn't. He was a giant fan of Smedley and McQuaid's work. He literally harassed them up and down the board about their decisions and their reluctance to give in to the high-end community. Him and Asfraibi were literally players who had the backing of devs who were a part of that community. Literally it's the same as Ion.

McQuaid was the OG Dev but he had a drug abuse problem. Smedley was #2 but he sold out to SOE. The devs under them to my knowledge in Kunark got scooped up by Blizz to work on BC. The attunement raid system was literally lifted from PoP from what I've read.

Long story short: Blizz started devlopment on WoW in '99. EQ had launched and was a success in the community. Blizz then started poaching EQ Devs under McQuaid. Basically WoW got huge using EQ's model just made it more casual to get to the endgame. Back then the endgame wasn't particularly hard compared to now. And it looks like from videos and reading all the real MMO talent is either with ESO, GW2, or at Dreamhaven and Riot.

[MoanaLisa]

I dont understand ppls obsession with demanding changes on a forum instead of just playing a game that is already the way they want

That's one primary reason why game and fan forums exist.

[Raisei]

Dependency on other players is a major gating factor wouldn’t you agree? Not to mention that dependency is not only on the others per se but also on their latency, their pc hardware, their schedule, their life obligations etc.

Welcome to the world of MMOs, I guess? If you can't stomach the social demands of playing with actual people on the internet then, and I ask this as nicely as I can, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

Play single player games, play an MMO that focusses on solo content like SWTOR, leave the game that has been defined by it's group content for 17 friggin years aloooone. It is clearly not for you.

The world does not revolve around you and your needs, no matter how much you feel that it should.

Btw. what it is with these "casuals" throwing words like "racism" and "discrimination" around because a game doesn't bend to their demands? Don't you think that is quite some abuse of words reserved for actual problems in our world?

[NineSpine]

Welcome to the world of MMOs, I guess? If you can't stomach the social demands of playing with actual people on the internet then, and I ask this as nicely as I can, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

Play single player games, play an MMO that focusses on solo content like SWTOR, leave the game that has been defined by it's group content for 17 friggin years aloooone. It is clearly not for you.

The world does not revolve around you and your needs, no matter how much you feel that it should.

Btw. what it is with these "casuals" throwing words like "racism" and "discrimination" around because a game doesn't bend to their demands? Don't you think that is quite some abuse of words reserved for actual problems in our world?

There is only one person throwing around those words, and it is you. You are the one with the weird hangup.

WoW used to have a lot more for casual players to do. It's not unreasonable to ask for that back, just like if they stopped making raids it would be reasonable for people who like raids to ask for them back.

[ellieg]

There is only one person throwing around those words, and it is you. You are the one with the weird hangup.

WoW used to have a lot more for casual players to do. It's not unreasonable to ask for that back, just like if they stopped making raids it would be reasonable for people who like raids to ask for them back.

The person he quoted quite literally used those words...

And what content did they used to have for casual players that they don't have now? Is it the content or the reward structure?

[Asrialol]

I have explained so many times and yet I get reaction posts like this that are based on a fraction of what I have said. To give you an insight though:

Same as you don’t have to play with me I don’t want to have to play with you. So the game should provide us all as clients of the game with options that allow us to not play with others and still play at our desired level of difficulty without dependency.

Make all the game ALSO playable mage tower style. Why would that bother you who don’t want to play with me?

So you're playing the game, but you want to play it the way you want, even if that's currently not possible? You want them to design the game the way you want?

You are a paying customer, after all. Your voice matters! You should be heard!!

[ellieg]

That's one primary reason why game and fan forums exist.

The primary purpose of a forum is to demand games be like other games instead of just playing that other game and going onto that games forums to talk abt what you like abt the game? Thats really dumb lol

[DuskSP]

WoW is designed to cater to the 80% of idiots that want idle mobile gameplay.

The game is dead cause it sucks because you idiots want mobile addiction mechanics. Stop buying store mounts and preorders. Stop subbing to collect stuff. FFS.

[Hauzhi]

This game is designed for addicted people.

Only someone with an addiction problem, plays this game to collect pets, do low standards world quests or run the same 8 dungeons for 2 years.

[Miffinat0r]

WoW is designed to cater to the 80% of idiots that want idle mobile gameplay.

The game is dead cause it sucks because you idiots want mobile addiction mechanics. Stop buying store mounts and preorders. Stop subbing to collect stuff. FFS.

This game is dead or dying because it's old and players don't want to spend 20-40 minutes looking for groups only to be kicked or raged at.

WoW's model was never the perpetual motion machine you think it is.