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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    (BOT = NOT, I assume)

    It's just a different failure mode on the devs' parts. In one case they didn't make any content, in the other they failed to make content that appealed to the customer. In neither case is it the customer's fault. No customer is under some sort of bizarre obligation to like content that was provided, just because it exists.
    And blizzard are under no obligation to tailor their game to any one players specific wants. They make a game - if you like it, pay for it and play it. If you don't, just......don't.

    I don't like pet battles, but if I was to list content the game provides, I absolutely would include pet battles as content. Again, not liking a particular type of content is not the same as there being no content.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-18 at 08:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And blizzard are under no obligation to tailor their game to any one players specific wants. They make a game - if you like it, pay for it and play it. If you don't, just......don't.
    However, it's the devs' responsibility to make a game that attracts customers. That's why they are employed. To the extent they fail to do this, they are failing and put their jobs at risk.

    Of course no specific customer has more than very slight market power. But those preferences add up, and as such cannot just be dismissed or ignored.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    However, it's the devs' responsibility to make a game that attracts customers. That's why they are employed. To the extent they fail to do this, they are failing and put their jobs at risk.

    Of course no specific customer has more than very slight market power. But those preferences add up, and as such cannot just be dismissed or ignored.
    No, it's their responsibility to make a product that is profitable, and despite the current state of the game, and dropping player numbers across all of blizzards games, and even more so across acti-blizz games, they still seem to be quite profitable, according to their reports.

    The only logical reason for this is the remaining players spending an equal or greater amount on / in the game.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-18 at 11:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibiki View Post
    I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
    Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.
    You couldn't be more wrong. The game has only catered to 5% of the playerbase, for it's entire existence. Yet it's still here, people are still playing it. Stop crying already, grow up. If it isn't the game for you, go play something else. Stop bitching and moaning that the random game you play, isn't made for you. Because it isn't.

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    "I don't like the content" is NOT the same as "there is no content". You can't seem to understand that.
    But it's the same content, it's like only having one dungeon but getting told each m+ is new content. You can't seem to understand that.
    Technically both is true, camping some raremob for some recolored mount technically is content, as is playing +30 instead of +29 on your only availible dungeon but just as the m+ community wouldn't accept only one m+ dungeon in a new expansion or the raid community wouldn't accept only one raid until the majority cleared the mythic endboss, the casual community is annoyed by the very limited open world content.
    "There technically is content" is a bad faith argument and you know it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    You couldn't be more wrong. The game has only catered to 5% of the playerbase, for it's entire existence. Yet it's still here, people are still playing it. Stop crying already, grow up. If it isn't the game for you, go play something else. Stop bitching and moaning that the random game you play, isn't made for you. Because it isn't.
    The game was much more casual friendly in the past, SL was among the worst for casuals. But you are right, everybody except the M+ and Raid people should quit. I encourage them to. I don't see me buying the next expansion, there is nothing in it that interests me at this point. Have your instanced bosskill game and see how that goes.
    Last edited by Yriel; 2022-05-19 at 06:58 AM.

  6. #826
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.
    That's a little harsh don't you think? I'm sure that the stuff Gul'Dan tried to feed the orcs wasn't THAT bad.

  8. #828
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.
    This attitude towards casuals has always been around to an extent and it remains incredible myopic. Don't get me wrong I think its great advice for consumers to tell them to leave when a product or service is no longer satisfying them. It's bad news bears for the game in the long run though and you can see evidence for that now. Shadowlands and BFA to an extent feel cheap and rushed and unfinished because they are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post



    The game was much more casual friendly in the past, SL was among the worst for casuals. But you are right, everybody except the M+ and Raid people should quit. I encourage them to. I don't see me buying the next expansion, there is nothing in it that interests me at this point. Have your instanced bosskill game and see how that goes.
    Not buying the expansion is pretty key here. They can ride the decline in subscribers because they have box sales. Box sales start to dip and they've got no excuse at that point.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2022-05-19 at 04:46 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I said it in the other thread, but I'll say it here because judging by the conversations going on, the overall attitude is that players who do not want to do raid or pvp content should just quit. "We want better casual content" is basically met with disdain and insults. And people wonder why the WoW community is at its lowest point ever? All of the nice people have left, and the toxic sludge of extra hardcore devoted fans has condensed into a sludge more disgusting than the stuff gul'dan tried to feed the orcs.
    This is the exact same conversation that has been ongoing since the game launched. I I think it may have actually been more toxic 15 plus years ago.

    All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    This is the exact same conversation that has been ongoing since the game launched. I I think it may have actually been more toxic 15 plus years ago.

    All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again
    I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

    The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

    The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

    The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

    The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.
    It started in Wrath actually, it just took a while to start having an effect. It was the multiple difficulties, a focus on harder content. Having content in the game that you had to "git gud or gtfo" caused a lot of casual players to do just that, gtfo.

    We lost a lot of good people in Wrath and Cata because they weren't good enough for heroic raids. We replaced them with less pleasant but skilled players and that boll has been rolling ever since.

    Now I personally think that the game is better now that the casuals have been driven out but it is what happened. If WoW had kept its low skill ceiling a lot more players would've subscribed to the game, I just wouldn't have been one of them because easy content is for losers.

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

    The "threads" back then I went looking for them don't seem to involve nearly the same level of grievances that they exist now. In fact I distinctly remember WoW being the casual MMO in the MMORPG when it launched and it remained that way I believe until Cata. Something changed following wraith that basically hung casual players who made the base of the game out to dry.

    The reality I feel is if we look at not just the WoW community, but MMORPG players as a whole, it's pretty universally agreed upon that Warcraft is not the casual MMORPG you want to play. Instead you have ESO, GW2, and FF14 leading that charge now.
    You know, there's a funny thing about this forum having existed as long as it has and it's that you can go back 10+ years and verify what people actually were bitching about back then.

    And low and behold, it's exactly the same shit that's being bitched about today.


    ...and that's just a snapshot of about a 2 week time frame from late 2010. So please, do not pretend that this community hasn't always been a toxic wasteland.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.
    The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

    This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

    This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

    (None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-05-19 at 07:31 PM.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

    This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

    This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

    (None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)
    Im always STUNNED when I see people claim the game has become LESS casual friendly, when so, so many casual friendly systems have been added to the game. So many casual friendly progression systems. The ability to obtain gear from casual content that is FAR more powerful than ever before. I honestly just dont get it. Either they have rose tinted glasses on, or simply didnt experience early wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

    This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

    This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

    (None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)
    Well done.

    This is exactly what people miss. M+ is the casual progression my dude.

    You dont have to be in a raid group, you dont need to login at right times were everyone will be online as well.

    Hell, you dont even need to use consuambles to get the best loot.

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im always STUNNED when I see people claim the game has become LESS casual friendly, when so, so many casual friendly systems have been added to the game. So many casual friendly progression systems. The ability to obtain gear from casual content that is FAR more powerful than ever before. I honestly just dont get it. Either they have rose tinted glasses on, or simply didnt experience early wow.
    I can see the argument in it's harder now to get to mythic then in the past and has become increasingly harder as new progression systems are added.

    That said I rarely see this argument brought up to talk about mythic raiding.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by azshanna View Post
    This is a mmorpg
    WOW is mmorpg, since when? It's a massively multiplayer action game, sure, but RPG? The story is fixed and you have no freedom to role play your character. Choosing a class and getting gear and raising stats doesn't make a game RPG. You need to have some degree of freedom in your actions, and that freedom and the path you take should be significant enough part of the game. Like, you know, in Fallout 1/2, Witcher 3.

    The only freedom we have in wow is starting a pandaren and choosing to join alliance or horde; that's it.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Drudi View Post
    WOW is mmorpg, since when? It's a massively multiplayer action game, sure, but RPG? The story is fixed and you have no freedom to role play your character. Choosing a class and getting gear and raising stats doesn't make a game RPG. You need to have some degree of freedom in your actions, and that freedom and the path you take should be significant enough part of the game. Like, you know, in Fallout 1/2, Witcher 3.

    The only freedom we have in wow is starting a pandaren and choosing to join alliance or horde; that's it.
    Says who? How did you come to this (very strange) conclusion that decisions are the defining feature that makes a game an rpg?
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  19. #839
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Says who? How did you come to this (very strange) conclusion that decisions are the defining feature that makes a game an rpg?
    Well the developers have sort of removed many key rpg elements. Maybe its an ARPG? but its the thinnest stew really. Put it this way in an actual.rpg I could talk my way into defeating the final boss. Good old fallout 1.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #840
    wow isnt an rpg = flat earthers

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