"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Triceron]

This is so not true. I can't remember last time i used google to try to search something for WoW. so i wouldn't count as sub in that case. Which i've been for 11 years.

The trends tend to line up with rise and drop of subs. It's not 1:1, but it is the most accurate way to gauge that we have right now. Even the 3rd party realm census sites are only taking aggregates of armory information, and otherwise can do very little for gauging active sub numbers vs inactive.

Like I said, there is no true accurate way except Blizzard releasing internal numbers. Otherwise, even the spikes we see in this chart through google trends lines up completely with the sub increases and drops during Shadowlands.

[arkanon]

That part where it just says multiplayer. Instanced doesn’t mean multiplayer.

Are you trying to take more Ls? Because this is how you take more Ls

HAHAHAHA, i asked "what does the second M in MMORPG stand for" and your answer is "not instanced". When did i ever say ANYTHING about instanced content? Have you confused me with someone else? I asked a VERY simple question, and you seem to be having a REALLY hard time answering it.

[VMSmith]

It stands for "not instanced"? really? where did you get that from?

Personally, I'd consider the fact that the early MMOs were not instanced and neither were the MUDs from which they descended good enough evidence that "instancing" was never a requirement to be considered an MMO. WoW was really the first major MMO to go all-in on instancing, before that the only example I'm aware of was the Corellian Corvette instance that was added to SWG, though I'm sure there may be more.

Instancing and grouping were later additions to the MMO genre, the original games thrived on the concept of a persistent world that other people happened to occupy and you could interact with, if you chose to.

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HAHAHAHA, i asked "what does the second M in MMORPG stand for" and your answer is "not instanced". When did i ever say ANYTHING about instanced content?

Hmm, never mind then. You appear to be looking to score some technical point rather than have an actual discussion.

[arkanon]

Personally, I'd consider the fact that the early MMOs were not instanced and neither were the MUDs from which they descended good enough evidence that "instancing" was never a requirement to be considered an MMO. WoW was really the first major MMO to go all-in on instancing, before that the only example I'm aware of was the Corellian Corvette instance that was added to SWG, though I'm sure there may be more.

Instancing and grouping were later additions to the MMO genre, the original games thrived on the concept of a persistent world that other people happened to occupy and you could interact with, if you chose to.

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Hmm, never mind then. You appear to be looking to score some technical point rather than have an actual discussion.

Here you guys go still flapping on and on and on about instancing, when all I asked is what the second M stands for. You guys know what a strawman argument is, right? You are ALL guilty of it.

[arkanon]

The topic of conversation was about instanced content, so if you WERENT talking about instanced content then you were irrelevantly responding to my post. Making it pointless.

Here you dropped this

L

Wrong - THIS is what you responded to and started flapping on about instanced content:

I think u dont know what MMORPG stands for, if u wana play solo go play Skyrim or Elden Ring

SOLO play - no mention at all of instanced content. You are trying so, so hard but you are wrong here. You are constantly relying on strawman arguments - the person you replied to didnt say "mate mmos are all about instanced content" - they mentioned SOLO PLAY.

[VMSmith]

Here you guys go still flapping on and on and on about instancing, when all I asked is what the second M stands for. You guys know what a strawman argument is, right? You are ALL guilty of it.

You're ignoring what people are actually talking about in order to score some technical point that the second "M" in MMORPG stands for "Multiplayer", rather than "not instanced". You are ignoring the context and content of what people are talking about solely so you can point and say "nu uh! M is for Multiplayer!".

Great, you're right about that. Does that advance the actual conversation at all? Enjoy your +1 internet technical point.

[arkanon]

And once again, the context for THAT POST



Man you keep dropping these


L L

Wrong AGAIN - an interesting decision by you to intentionally edit out THIS part of the OP:

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.

The person then responded and specifically mentioned SOLO play, and said NOTHING about instanced content. You guys are desperately trying to twist this conversation to be about instanced content, when none of the people you are responding to are talking about that at all.

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You're ignoring what people are actually talking about in order to score some technical point that the second "M" in MMORPG stands for "Multiplayer", rather than "not instanced". You are ignoring the context and content of what people are talking about solely so you can point and say "nu uh! M is for Multiplayer!".

Great, you're right about that. Does that advance the actual conversation at all? Enjoy your +1 internet technical point.

No, This entire conversation started with someone replying to OP's complaint that there was no talk about SOLO play - how do i know that? They specificlally mentioned SOLO PLAY - not instanced content. Then a few of you got totally confused and started flapping on about instanced content in a discussion about solo content vs mp content.

[arkanon]

Solo players just means they aren’t premading. Solo players can do multiplayer content and still be a solo player.

This is the greatest quote of the thread - you heard it here first - solo players playing group content with other players are still..............solo players.....

[MoanaLisa]

If I may:

Solo content can be instanced (see scenario technology used in leveling) or not. So can group content. World bosses are group content. They are not instanced. Raids and dungeons are, for the most part, instanced and originally designed for groups. So it's either and both.

Can we leave this now because there is a lot of sealioning going on and the "debate" is more about scoring points that saying anything at all that illuminates what the thread is about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

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This is the greatest quote of the thread - you heard it here first - solo players playing group content with other players are still..............solo players.....

Indeed. Soloing old raids, originally designed for multiplayer play, for pets and achievements is a thing that can be done by one's self or with a friend or two in instanced content. You know this. Either or both. The quote you so triumphantly countered says nothing about playing in groups.

[arkanon]

Indeed. Soloing old raids for pets and achievements is a thing that can be done solo in instanced content. You know this.

I CLEARLY said WITH OTHER PLAYERS. You know this.

[Neotart]

Wrong - THIS is what you responded to and started flapping on about instanced content:



SOLO play - no mention at all of instanced content. You are trying so, so hard but you are wrong here. You are constantly relying on strawman arguments - the person you replied to didnt say "mate mmos are all about instanced content" - they mentioned SOLO PLAY.

Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man.

[munkeyinorbit]

You're ignoring what people are actually talking about in order to score some technical point that the second "M" in MMORPG stands for "Multiplayer", rather than "not instanced". You are ignoring the context and content of what people are talking about solely so you can point and say "nu uh! M is for Multiplayer!".

Great, you're right about that. Does that advance the actual conversation at all? Enjoy your +1 internet technical point.

Please point out where OP mentioned instance. Replying with a snarky comment because your wrong is not alright. People might be trying to derail the thread but thats no excuse to attack other users because they are right. There's no need for it.

[Triceron]

I CLEARLY said WITH OTHER PLAYERS. You know this.

Yeah but Yagsdom did not say with other players, so you're literally beating the straw man.

"Look how ridiculous this guy's statement is when I clearly change it to make it sound ridiculous!"

[NineSpine]

Wrong AGAIN - an interesting decision by you to intentionally edit out THIS part of the OP:



The person then responded and specifically mentioned SOLO play, and said NOTHING about instanced content. You guys are desperately trying to twist this conversation to be about instanced content, when none of the people you are responding to are talking about that at all.

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No, This entire conversation started with someone replying to OP's complaint that there was no talk about SOLO play - how do i know that? They specificlally mentioned SOLO PLAY - not instanced content. Then a few of you got totally confused and started flapping on about instanced content in a discussion about solo content vs mp content.

Do you think that Fortnite is not a multiplayer game because the main way to play it is solo?

[Nynax]

The moment you quote anything from Asmongold is the moment you lose any and all credibility. That... person, is a complete and utter waist of space. It and others like him are half the reason behind the toxic culture that has been fermenting within the WoW player base for years. They have driven away more players than any supposed mistakes Blizzard has made.

After hearing this said about Asmongold by enough people, I eventually got curious and decided to watch a few of his videos. His videos, not dumb clips taken out of context. Personally, I have yet to see any of this "source of toxicity" people claim. Better yet, I've seen him ban people from his chat for being clearly offensive and dumb. Most of his take's have been pretty sensible from what i've seen/

[arkanon]

Yeah but Yagsdom did not say with other players, so you're literally beating the straw man.

"Look how ridiculous this guy's statement is when I clearly change it to make it sound ridiculous!"

Actually, they simply said "without premading", meaning pugging/queuing with randoms.

[Glazey]

After hearing this said about Asmongold by enough people, I eventually got curious and decided to watch a few of his videos. His videos, not dumb clips taken out of context. Personally, I have yet to see any of this "source of toxicity" people claim. Better yet, I've seen him ban people from his chat for being clearly offensive and dumb. Most of his take's have been pretty sensible from what i've seen/

It stems from his persona from his early streaming days where he would be a cunt for content. These days, some of his takes are just blunt and people don't like it. Another thing that people don't like to admit is that WoW's community, just like almost every other games, toxicity is promoted more than helpful shit. Better to point out toxicity than to actually do something to better.

[Echo of Soul]

I CLEARLY said WITH OTHER PLAYERS. You know this.

You need to calm down man

[Syncr]

Actually, they simply said "without premading", meaning pugging/queuing with randoms.

That’s still you strawmaning

[Fitsu]

The best games are the ones where Devs make the game they want to make and cater to nobody. When you start catering to your playerbase your game becomes a confused mess a mechanics trying to make everyone happy.

Imagine what the Souls Series would be if they catered to what the 90% cried for. Instead they stuck to their guns, made the games they wanted to make and look at it now, a huge commercial success.