"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I feel like people say this because it's a means to dismiss the conversation without having to contribute to it.

The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

(None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)

[arkanon]

The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

(None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)

Im always STUNNED when I see people claim the game has become LESS casual friendly, when so, so many casual friendly systems have been added to the game. So many casual friendly progression systems. The ability to obtain gear from casual content that is FAR more powerful than ever before. I honestly just dont get it. Either they have rose tinted glasses on, or simply didnt experience early wow.

[Rubim]

The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

(None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)

Well done.

This is exactly what people miss. M+ is the casual progression my dude.

You dont have to be in a raid group, you dont need to login at right times were everyone will be online as well.

Hell, you dont even need to use consuambles to get the best loot.

[Celement]

Im always STUNNED when I see people claim the game has become LESS casual friendly, when so, so many casual friendly systems have been added to the game. So many casual friendly progression systems. The ability to obtain gear from casual content that is FAR more powerful than ever before. I honestly just dont get it. Either they have rose tinted glasses on, or simply didnt experience early wow.

I can see the argument in it's harder now to get to mythic then in the past and has become increasingly harder as new progression systems are added.

That said I rarely see this argument brought up to talk about mythic raiding.

[Drudi]

This is a mmorpg

WOW is mmorpg, since when? It's a massively multiplayer action game, sure, but RPG? The story is fixed and you have no freedom to role play your character. Choosing a class and getting gear and raising stats doesn't make a game RPG. You need to have some degree of freedom in your actions, and that freedom and the path you take should be significant enough part of the game. Like, you know, in Fallout 1/2, Witcher 3.

The only freedom we have in wow is starting a pandaren and choosing to join alliance or horde; that's it.

[arkanon]

WOW is mmorpg, since when? It's a massively multiplayer action game, sure, but RPG? The story is fixed and you have no freedom to role play your character. Choosing a class and getting gear and raising stats doesn't make a game RPG. You need to have some degree of freedom in your actions, and that freedom and the path you take should be significant enough part of the game. Like, you know, in Fallout 1/2, Witcher 3.

The only freedom we have in wow is starting a pandaren and choosing to join alliance or horde; that's it.

Says who? How did you come to this (very strange) conclusion that decisions are the defining feature that makes a game an rpg?

[Glorious Leader]

Says who? How did you come to this (very strange) conclusion that decisions are the defining feature that makes a game an rpg?

Well the developers have sort of removed many key rpg elements. Maybe its an ARPG? but its the thinnest stew really. Put it this way in an actual.rpg I could talk my way into defeating the final boss. Good old fallout 1.

[LedZeppelin]

wow isnt an rpg = flat earthers

[Cthulhu 2020]

This is the exact same conversation that has been ongoing since the game launched. I I think it may have actually been more toxic 15 plus years ago.

All of this has happened before, all of it will happen again

Wow was 10x more casual than the most casual MMO's back then. The community back then was more restricted to servers, and there was no real macro community back then. If someone was a dick, they were ostracized from the community they were in until they either quit or rolled a new character (since there was no name changing service). There's always been toxicity in WoW, but it's certainly FAR more toxic these days than it once was.

[WinningOne]

I'm interested in who gave you the idea that you get to decide what other people are allowed to find fun?

If you think that idea of fun is up for discussion then you're one of the hamster wheel people I mentioned in the previous sentence.

[Soikona]

The WoW forums in 2005 (after even most casuals had leveled) were non-stop complaints of casual v hardcore and raid or die! The armor quest stuff was a direct response to that because there was 0 real small group progression.

This was still true even in the days of badge gear!

This "there was a great era for casuals in the past" is pure historical revisionism, imo! m+ added better casual progression than any system ever has, you can get max gear with only a few hours per week.

(None of this is to say that the game can't improve on this stuff. But casual content stinks in ESO and SWTOR too imo, it's just the same things over and over again, all so easy it is snooze worthy. Do you really want to grind Hammer Station from 2011 for the best gear in the game in 2022? We need more stuff like Visions or something, or even torghast challenges)

I would disagree with ESO. I am very casual on it, and just unlocking more skill points, researching traits, levelling thief’s guild, etc, is very rewarding.

- - - Updated - - -

If you think that idea of fun is up for discussion then you're one of the hamster wheel people I mentioned in the previous sentence.

I’m with Mardux, I work on my car for the sake of more ponies and torque, because I like bigger numbers. I don’t race, pull or anything.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I would disagree with ESO. I am very casual on it, and just unlocking more skill points, researching traits, levelling thief’s guild, etc, is very rewarding.

I think the biggest issue for me is that I did that in 2014 when it came out and almost nothing has changed in 8 years. I'm literally wearing crafted pieces from then and still obliterate quest mobs effortlessly hehe

[Tyris Flare]

Wow was 10x more casual than the most casual MMO's back then. The community back then was more restricted to servers, and there was no real macro community back then. If someone was a dick, they were ostracized from the community they were in until they either quit or rolled a new character (since there was no name changing service). There's always been toxicity in WoW, but it's certainly FAR more toxic these days than it once was.

That wasn't true even the since GW existed, and it stopped being true altogether once we got a wave of MMOs in 2010+.

I also think the server stuff is massively exaggerated. The reason people sometimes got a reputation is because all that mattered was what guild you were in, because guilds controlled access to the only rewarding content. Which is...not a casual game.

You basically needed to raid in multiple guilds even to have functional alts back then. I think modern classic with boosting and GDKPs and trivial content have really skewed peoples perspective on how hardcore progression was back in the day in terms of hours and guilds and scheduled playtime.

[WinningOne]

I would disagree with ESO. I am very casual on it, and just unlocking more skill points, researching traits, levelling thief’s guild, etc, is very rewarding.

- - - Updated - - -



I’m with Mardux, I work on my car for the sake of more ponies and torque, because I like bigger numbers. I don’t race, pull or anything.

Congratulations. That means you're also a hamster wheel person.

[azshanna]

WOW is mmorpg, since when? It's a massively multiplayer action game, sure, but RPG? The story is fixed and you have no freedom to role play your character. Choosing a class and getting gear and raising stats doesn't make a game RPG. You need to have some degree of freedom in your actions, and that freedom and the path you take should be significant enough part of the game. Like, you know, in Fallout 1/2, Witcher 3.

The only freedom we have in wow is starting a pandaren and choosing to join alliance or horde; that's it.

You are completely right about now having any option regarding story. I can think of great choices with the least impact on game like betrayal quest for all races. Having covenant kinda felt like having a choice to team up with non-players although the grind and other stuff at early patches ruined the feeling. Or maybe siding with Garrosh, Sylvanase, or other characters. Personally i would even like to side with void related factions as a long time shadow priest player.

There are many more ideas and demands for freedom of choice regarding roleplaying aspect of the game which have never been added to the game. I think the main reason or maybe excuse for lack of such contents is that in games like Witcher your choices only affect your gameplay and experience which is quite hard to apply it to online game.

[Aydinx2]

Congratulations. That means you're also a hamster wheel person.

You keep using this as an insult and some sort of rebuke, but it really doesn't work.
"Hamster wheel" is only a bad thing if the person isn't enjoying themselves.

The whole point of rewards in a videogame is that there is always more to chase after. That's literally in the nature of not just an RPG but games in general.
You're playing the same game. You're not better than anyone just because you forgo those better rewards and somehow your fun is more "legitimate".

[WinningOne]

You keep using this as an insult and some sort of rebuke, but it really doesn't work.
"Hamster wheel" is only a bad thing if the person isn't enjoying themselves.

The whole point of rewards in a videogame is that there is always more to chase after. That's literally in the nature of not just an RPG but games in general.
You're playing the same game. You're not better than anyone just because you forgo those better rewards and somehow your fun is more "legitimate".

It's only a rebuke because everyone knows it is. All I've done is explain two sides of the progression design method and who it appeals to. The context of the OP was that Blizzard shouldn't be making content which only the top 5% of raiders can do and instead focus on it being accessible to everyone. This creates a hamster wheel which appeals to stupid people. It creates the illusion of progress through shinier and shinier gold stars without any substantial accomplishment.

Fortunately, the hamster wheel is already there so the only reason the OP cares about the most difficult content is because they have to watch more capable players receive rewards they themselves can't get. If players want to be happy running the infinite cycle of illusory awards then they shouldn't suddenly get upset when a small percentage of players need something more than pretend progress. As you said, if you're happy with the wheel great but don't use that to convince yourself other players have to stay there with you.