How I Would Fix Drakthyr

[Teriz]

No we clearly cannot, as you seem incapable of grasping how someone can like the hard math part of a class and dislike the aesthetics of the race it's locked into playing as. The animations and dependency of a tail is irrelevant when discussing or liking/disliking the interaction between a spell and a proc for a class, how a talent makes a spell behave differently or if the dot is easy to multidot with or has a long enough duration etc.

Except we're talking about how Dracthyr and the Evoker are one in the same. Thus someone liking a knockback effect is irrelevant, because if you like the Evoker's knockback, it is irrevocably tied to wings;



You don't have one without the other.

You keep circling back to aesthetics when I'm using mechanics to demonstrate how you can like or dislike a class irrelevant of aesthetics.

The aesthetics are irrevocably tied to the mechanics and vice versa. The class exists because of the race and vice versa. You literally can't have one without the other, and that is by design.

- - - Updated - - -

No problem. In ER Crucible Fucks use magic wings and tails. Make em spectral or some shit.

And there's literally zero basis for something like that in WoW. Further if we expand that to various races, it becomes ridiculous and silly. Imagine a Tauren sprouting spirit tails and wings, flying overhead and breathing fire Onyxia-style. It would be a rather terrible concept.

[Gigantique]

Except we're talking about how Dracthyr and the Evoker are one in the same. Thus someone liking a knockback effect is irrelevant, because if you like the Evoker's knockback, it is irrevocably tied to wings;



You don't have one without the other.



The aesthetics are irrevocably tied to the mechanics and vice versa. The class exists because of the race and vice versa. You literally can't have one without the other, and that is by design.

- - - Updated - - -



And there's literally zero basis for something like that in WoW. Further if we expand that to various races, it becomes ridiculous and silly. Imagine a Tauren sprouting spirit tails and wings. It would be a rather terrible concept.

We are not at all talking about the Dracthyr and Evoker being one and the same, that's an argument you made as a rebuttal to me that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Evoker is a class and has aspects to it that are definitely dependent on the Dracthyr for aesthetic aspects like tail swipe, wing buffet etc.

It also has mechanical and numbers-based aspect that have no dependency on its aesthetics. The animation of Wing Buffet requires wings to be flapped. The MECHANICS of it just makes enemies in a cone X meters in front of your character be knocked back. I can like or dislike that mechanic with the aesthetics of it being completely irrelevant to the discussion. I could love everything the Evoker brings to the table and how it feels to play with its talent tree, its tier set bonus, it's proc feeling absolutely amazing but think Dragons are the dumbest fantasy trope to ever have existed (I don't but bear with me) and boom, I LIKE the Evoker but DISLIKE the Dracthyr.

What, I cannot like how good it feels to have Lava Surge proc its instant cast as a Shaman unless I am REALLY into lava?

I cannot like how good it feels to land a trap on the enemy healer in Arenas as a Hunter unless I find bear traps to be the coolest shit in town?

Feel cool when you use Smoke Bomb to lock the enemy healer out so you can finish off your target as a rogue? Well you have to be a huge fan of ... smoke then!

I find it insanely funny how you insist on dying on this hill on a public forum.

[shamantime]

I don't understand why Blizzard didn't just give us Drakkonoids or Dragonspawn. They fit the WoW aesthetic.

I don't like the look of the Drakthyr at all. Tweaking their proportions won't salvage the race for me.

cry more xD

[Teriz]

We are not at all talking about the Dracthyr and Evoker being one and the same, that's an argument you made as a rebuttal to me that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Your original post;

The thread Teriz is referring to polls if people liked the EVOKER class, not necessarily the race itself (I know I voted yes because I do like the class but I do not like the current rendition of Dracthyr for example)

Teriz does that, tweaking factoids a lil' bit and presenting his opinions as facts themselves.

My response;

Dracthyr and Evoker are one in the same. Ion said as much.

Your response;

Perfect example, replying with something irrelevant and wrong presented as a rebuttal to avoid the actual point made.

Evoker is a class, with mechanics I could find really cool and to have interesting playstyles.

Dracthyr is a race with aesthetics, animations, armor restrictions and eyecolours I dislike which has no effect on how I feel about the gameplay of Evoker.

So no, they are not the same which is why they're named the Evoker class and the Dracthyr race and not just Dracthyr.

My response;

The Evoker's mechanics are based on the draconic body of the Dracthyr.

The Dracthyr's body and overall concept was designed with the Evoker's abilities in mind.

They're one in the same. Blizzard literally calls them Dracthyr Evokers;

https://dragonflight.blizzard.com/en-us/

etc.

At what point did we stop talking about the DE not being the same thing?

Evoker is a class and has aspects to it that are definitely dependent on the Dracthyr for aesthetic aspects like tail swipe, wing buffet etc.

It also has mechanical and numbers-based aspect that have no dependency on its aesthetics. The animation of Wing Buffet requires wings to be flapped. The MECHANICS of it just makes enemies in a cone X meters in front of your character be knocked back. I can like or dislike that mechanic with the aesthetics of it being completely irrelevant to the discussion. I could love everything the Evoker brings to the table and how it feels to play with its talent tree, its tier set bonus, it's proc feeling absolutely amazing but think Dragons are the dumbest fantasy trope to ever have existed (I don't but bear with me) and boom, I LIKE the Evoker but DISLIKE the Dracthyr.

Yeah, and once again you're missing the point; That ability is justified in the Evoker class because the only race that can be the class has wings. So the knockback is completely dependent on the Dracthyr having wings. If the Dracthyr doesn't have wings, you're going to need another reason to justify the ability, and that justification has to match the thematic of the class.

And of course the thematic of the class is dragons, specifically WINGED dragons.

What, I cannot like how good it feels to have Lava Surge proc its instant cast as a Shaman unless I am REALLY into lava?

Lava surge and the Shaman's use of lava is not race-dependent. The Evoker breathing fire while flying through the air is COMPLETELY race dependent, and the only race capable of doing it are dracthyr.

[shamantime]

I don't know if this is just your defense mechanism to an argument you can't respond to or if you're genuinely struggling with grasping this concept, but I'll do it step by step then;

Let's take a random class and a random ability, oh I don't know a Warrior's Warbreaker talent. The animation is identical across all races (your character does a stomp on the ground) so it's inherently locked to the class that Warbreaker = stomp just like an Evoker Tail Swipe = swipe tail.

Now, I am perfectly able to discuss the mechanical side of Warbreaker, how it applies a debuff to targets around me for 6s that gives them 30% more damage taken from me, without thr stomp animation having anything to do with it. The ability could literally have my character stand still and just magically apply the debuff without an animation and I can still discuss the gameplay element of the ability. Maybe I really like the concept of creating a 6s window to destroy enemies with 30% damage but think the stomp animation looks silly.

Ergo I like the class ability mechanically but dislike the look of it.

Now let's translate this to the Evoker Wing Flap ability. Let's say it does a knockback effect and the animation is the Evoker flapping its wings forward to do so.

I am perfectly capable of liking the ability, how for example it only has a 10s CD, maybe it stuns a target if it hits a wall and I really like that.

But I dislike the wing flap animation the Dracthyr does and wish it was just a cast like the Druid Typhoon.

Ergo I like the Evoker ability for its mechanics and interactions but dislike the Dracthyr race for its animations when using the ability. My enjoyment of the Evoker class mechanics are not affected by the animations or aesthetics of the race model.

This is like basic understanding of discussion, nobody is taking into account that Arcane Explosion is a purple dome that shoots out from your character when discussing if they like its damage numbers, how it interacts with Arcane Charges or how much mana it drains etc.

It absolutely is, all the years I've been on this site the one thing that hasn't changed is Teriz' ability to shift goalposts.

[baskev]

I do think your dragon forms is WAY WAY better. including the armor.

But your humaniod form still is bad. Its to, i stopped my cosplay halfway thruh kind of look.

They should look like yesra, alexstraza, wrathion etc.
Maybe force to have a type of horns, weird eye colors. Or maybe minute scales of the whole body.

[Auburst]

Except we're talking about how Dracthyr and the Evoker are one in the same. Thus someone liking a knockback effect is irrelevant, because if you like the Evoker's knockback, it is irrevocably tied to wings;



You don't have one without the other.



The aesthetics are irrevocably tied to the mechanics and vice versa. The class exists because of the race and vice versa. You literally can't have one without the other, and that is by design.

- - - Updated - - -



And there's literally zero basis for something like that in WoW. Further if we expand that to various races, it becomes ridiculous and silly. Imagine a Tauren sprouting spirit tails and wings, flying overhead and breathing fire Onyxia-style. It would be a rather terrible concept.

There is, for example fire mage's dragon breath. It could work.

[FlubberPuddy]

No problem. In ER Crucible Fucks use magic wings and tails. Make em spectral or some shit.

Still upset the wings never became available as a spell but all others did

[Teriz]

There is, for example fire mage's dragon breath. It could work.

No it wouldn’t. You’d just be a mage. The Evoker works as a unique class because you’re a dragon, not a mage using “dragon” magic.

[Auburst]

Still upset the wings never became available as a spell but all others did

Maybe in DLC? I fucking hope so.

No it wouldn’t. You’d just be a mage. The Evoker works as a unique class because you’re a dragon, not a mage using “dragon” magic.

They can always partially transform and grow those limbs for the sake of attacks.

[Teriz]

They can always partially transform and grow those limbs for the sake of attacks.

Given the sheer amount of dragon-based abilities in the class, that would be senseless. You would be in a constant state of transformation, and be pretty much a dragon/partial dragon the entire time. Again, no basis in lore for such a class with those abilities.

It makes more sense to allow the player to racially be a dragon and have a class based on draconic attributes and on the aspects, which is what they did.

[Mutineer]

Again, no basis in lore for such a class with those abilities.

I don't like the suggestion of scrapping a dragon race and just playing as tauren and elves sprouting wings in the slightest, but lacking a lore foundation has pretty much never stopped Blizzard from adding anything. They add whatever they want to and justify it after the fact, it's just how they roll.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You've obviously never seen him argue for tinkers or you might not have even bothered trying though I can certainly appreciate and respect the attempt.

When I had an ongoing thread with him, we got to a point where I got an implicit admission that:
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect the ability to do world content.
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect raid boss encounters.
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect dungeon boss encounters.

And we distilled the problem down to:
- Adding bulky options might affect visibility on trash when your camera distance is forcibly reduced, and multiple Dracthyr are using their "Soar" cooldown (think Cunning of Kil'jaeden). Which he then went on to defend that "people wipe on trash" and adding that the tails of the Dracthyr are also visual obstructions.

There's genuinely nothing to be gained from engaging at this point.

[Teriz]

I don't like the suggestion of scrapping a dragon race and just playing as tauren and elves sprouting wings in the slightest, but lacking a lore foundation has pretty much never stopped Blizzard from adding anything. They add whatever they want to and justify it after the fact, it's just how they roll.

Not when it comes to classes. The Evoker for example is heavily based on established dragon lore.

[Gigantique]

When I had an ongoing thread with him, we got to a point where I got an implicit admission that:
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect the ability to do world content.
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect raid boss encounters.
- Adding bulky options likely wouldn't affect dungeon boss encounters.

And we distilled the problem down to:
- Adding bulky options might affect visibility on trash when your camera distance is forcibly reduced, and multiple Dracthyr are using their "Soar" cooldown (think Cunning of Kil'jaeden). Which he then went on to defend that "people wipe on trash" and adding that the tails of the Dracthyr are also visual obstructions.

There's genuinely nothing to be gained from engaging at this point.

Yeah it was a fun exercise in cornering someone into going into repeat mode because they have no argument but it's clear that's as far as I'll get, moving on!

OT: Dracthyr are a key feature that for the first time gatekeeps an entire class and its gameplay, so Blizz should for sure go the extra mile to make their customisation options cover as wide a customerbase as possible. Considering the main negative feedback/wishlist has been to add bulk that's a nobrainer to me.

And no Draconid levels is too much imo because they clearly intend the Dracthyr to be a more sleek spellcaster type dragon so I personally think the Thunderbird edit should be the bulkiest they get, no more.

[Mutineer]

Not when it comes to classes. The Evoker for example is heavily based on established dragon lore.

Fair enough!

[Supertoster]

Except the Dracthyr are the way they are because of the Evoker, and vice versa.

So what? A lot of people still dislike them. They don't care about reasoning behind design if they dislike design itself. If design seems bad - the reasoning behind it is also bad.
People don't care about excuses. It is not their problem.

[Nightshade711]

Except the Dracthyr are the way they are because of the Evoker, and vice versa.

It is still very valid to not like the race but love the class.

I like the class a lot from what we’ve seen mechanically speaking. I see myself actually maining it because it at least seems to solve some of the issues I have with playing casters.

It’s the race I don’t like. Though that could easily be hidden through using some appearance changing toy or if blizzard ends up working out letting the class fight in visage form like Ion discussed.
The class itself wouldn’t change at all if I used some appearance changing toy or fought in visage form.

Though animations would be weird for the toys, and fighting in visage form would probably temporarily swap your forms for the specific abilities needing use of wings. (Sort of like DH eye beam/fel devastation/infernal leap)

[Teriz]

So what? A lot of people still dislike them. They don't care about reasoning behind design if they dislike design itself. If design seems bad - the reasoning behind it is also bad.
People don't care about excuses. It is not their problem.

Yes, and you're allowed to dislike them. My point is that the people who voted "yes" in that "do you like the Dracthyr Evoker" poll like both the race and the class, since they are one in the same.

[Auburst]

Given the sheer amount of dragon-based abilities in the class, that would be senseless. You would be in a constant state of transformation, and be pretty much a dragon/partial dragon the entire time. Again, no basis in lore for such a class with those abilities.

It makes more sense to allow the player to racially be a dragon and have a class based on draconic attributes and on the aspects, which is what they did.

Yeah it would work then and make class unique. Basis in lore is nebulous and ultimately irrelevant.

Okey but where are dragons, so far I've seen only Soythyr.

- - - Updated - - -

Not when it comes to classes. The Evoker for example is heavily based on established dragon lore.

Human sprouting draconic limbs too could be heavily based on established dragon lore.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, and you're allowed to dislike them. My point is that the people who voted "yes" in that "do you like the Dracthyr Evoker" poll like both the race and the class, since they are one in the same.

That's not true.