Does anyone else feel embarrassed that the Dracthyr lore creates a huge plot hole?

[Aucald]

When did he mix them? I mean just mixing and not using different types of magic in turn, because the Dracthyrs do the same thing? By the way, it always seemed to me that he is so extremely powerful, not only because he is a chromatic dragon, but also because an unreal amount of arcane magic was poured into him.

And we know this because... Seriously, even in BC there was a quest where you had to kill the black dragon. You did not kill him in a raid or dungeon, just in the open world on a quest. Some dragons are stronger than others, but I really don't think the POWERFUL HEROES OF AZEROTH would have a problem killing an adult dragon (even before they lost their powers) in the current expansion, given that heroes have already killed pit lords and eredars 1x1 (although I I think that the dragons are stronger, but the heroes are also stronger now).

God, I never said they had the power of the Aspect, why do people keep saying that? Nobody in the world has Aspect level power, they were the most powerful beings on Azeroth apart from the Old Gods. We don't really know where Dracthyrs are in terms of power level. As I said, Chromatus was strong not only because he was chromatic, but also because he was infused with a huge amount of arcane magic to revive him.

He used multiple Aspect powers at the same time, contending with the various Aspects fighting in tandem against him, basically countering them at every step by using their opposing power against them and still having the trump card of the Earthwarder's power where Neltharion wasn't present to complete the unity of the Aspects. Chromatus could quite literally do five things at once, despite being a single entity. His immense level of power and the fact that he could wield Aspect-levels of power in the same way the dragon Aspects could is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.

As for the TBC quest, I assume you're referring to Obsidia, a quest mob that's flagged as a group-level challenge that suggests a 5-person group take down. Canonically speaking, she also doesn't die in TBC, as you encounter her again in the Twilight Highlands during Cata, where you again have the aid of the Red drakonid Baleflame to assist you with finally killing her.

I'm not claiming you said that the dracthyr have the power of the Aspects, either; I mentioned their lower power relative to full dragons and the Aspects to further differentiate the dracthyr from the later Chromatic and Twilight flights, and from beings like Chromatus and Ultraxion that *did* have power akin to the Aspects. We do know where the dracthyr's relative power level is as well, we know it by virtue of the fact that they're slated to be a playable race in the game. They're power level is roughly equivalent to that of the rest of the mortals that comprise the playable races and classes - possibly slightly higher lore-wise owing to their unique nature, but certainly comparable, and exactly the same from a gameplay standpoint.

[Linkedblade]

I'm pretty sure that darkoms is saying that Nefarian is the one that started the Chromatic dragon experiments, and then after Neltharion/Deathwing continued the experiments there were still major problems/struggles with it. So considering the problems that Deathwing had with it, darkoms finds it strange that he had already perfected something very similar to it 10,000 years prior to that.

Not trying to step into the debate at this moment, but I hate seeing miscommunications run amok. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, darkoms.

Neltharion started them, Nefarian continued them. Remember Deathwing goes crazy and hides in deepholme. Nefarian continues his experiments elsewhere.

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They literally said that Neltharion created them with the ability to use the powers of all 5 flights. Just because we've only been given a couple of abilities so far doesn't mean that every specialization can't use all 5

They only specialize in two, and which two depends on which specialization you take.

[Chromeshellking]

I can't place any real effort into considering anything a plot hole anymore. im more concerned with how it all plays out.

[Izalla]

Just wanna add that on top of all the other stuff about Deathwing possibly creating them before he was totally crazy and then lost access to his research after the Sundering (and the whole part where they were trying to make dragons later on, not smaller mortal hybrids), keep in mind that the Dragon Isles are clearly magical and special in some way. Why else would they need to be hidden, why else would the whole island go to sleep when the aspects left, and why else would it suddenly wake up when the aspects returned? Maybe part of the reason he was successful in making the dracthyr at all, beyond potentially having the support of the other aspects at the time who could have infused his experiments with their own powers willingly, is because the Dragon Isles are the only place that supports that kind of thing. All the other chromatic monstrosities they've made were all kinds of messed up or straight up resurrected corpses mashed together. Maybe the Dragon Isles offer a unique power source specifically used to give birth to different types of dragons that you can't just brute force into existing through traditional (or necromany based) ways.

Maybe the Dragon Isles have the raw clay you can sculpt new dragons with (the elemental forces and titan machinery present there), while Nefarian and later era Deathwing were trying to glue together bits of already shaped and baked and no longer pliable dragons.

[Palapop]

I mean, Nefarian spent years creating chromatic dragons that wielded 5 dragon powers at once, and even when Deathwing personally continued these experiments, they had problems reviving Chromatus. Chromatic dragons simply died, apparently due to an overabundance of power. But now it turns out that once upon a time Neltharion simply created an entire race of Drakonids who wielded all 5 powers of the Aspects without any restrictions or consequences? Amazing

And even funnier thing- they gonna be our allies now xD

[Aresk]

Wildseeds are where spirits of nature, referred to as Wild Gods, rest inside of being prepared to be reborn to the world of the living from Ardenweald.

Quest text from in game.

Much of the Queen's focus has centered on the Grove of Awakening, where rejuvenated spirits emerge from their wildseeds and return to their worlds.

Perhaps it is fitting you carry a wounded spirit with you.

<Lord Herne studies Ysera's wildseed for a moment before a slow grin spreads across his face.>

This one fights with all of her being. Even now she clings to existence.

Come stranger, let us see what fate the Queen will decree for this one.


Ysera is definitely a wild god. She was forced to stay in Ardenweald for reasons not fully explained, but probably due to the fact that she was resurrected by the Winter Queen from her seed while still inside of Ardenweald instead of the normal process where they return to their worlds. She wouldn't be inside of a Wildseed if she wasn't a wild god destined to return to her world should the normal process transpire.

Yes, she's a spirit, but she remained bound to Ardenweald, unlike the normal Wild Gods that, when born from the seeds, linger for a few seconds before returning. The other spirits are reborn in Ardenweald (typically within the conservatory), so that's not the cause for the exception. And unlike Droman Aliothe, Ysera's world wasn't destroyed, so that's not the reason she is unable to return. Whatever Ysera is now is similar to a wild god, but there are key differences. Vol'jin has a very similar experience in the campaign, where he is not a wild god but through exposure to other forces (absorbing Rezan's essence in his case) is changed sufficiently to experience their cycle. Which really begs the question, what happened to Yazma and the Drakkari after they died?

[darkoms]

1. Deathwing was trying to create Chromatic Dragons. Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.
2. Deathwing apparently used the Dragon Soul to create the Dracthyr, and he lost that after the Sundering.

Blizard said he created them to help the Aspects protect the world. Pretty obvious this was before the betrayal, before Dragon Soul

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Neltharion started them, Nefarian continued them. Remember Deathwing goes crazy and hides in deepholme. Nefarian continues his experiments elsewhere.

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They only specialize in two, and which two depends on which specialization you take.

No, they jusr said only about 2 for now

[deenman]

but wait...for whaaaaaaaat issss tooo commmeee.

wile im pretty sure the writers dont know what is to come,i am kinda curious on what they come up with,but i dont think im the only one who suspects a star wars situation(extended lore i dont think the main movies even mention the stuff palpatine was trying to opose)

[okanial]

Pretty sure the races they can be are the bigger retcon. Deathwing created them before going mad because he saw the potential of mortal races right? So that should be Trolls and Night Elves. Humans and high elves are such new races they don't fit

[darkoms]

He used multiple Aspect powers at the same time, contending with the various Aspects fighting in tandem against him, basically countering them at every step by using their opposing power against them and still having the trump card of the Earthwarder's power where Neltharion wasn't present to complete the unity of the Aspects. Chromatus could quite literally do five things at once, despite being a single entity. His immense level of power and the fact that he could wield Aspect-levels of power in the same way the dragon Aspects could is what made him such a force to be reckoned with.

As for the TBC quest, I assume you're referring to Obsidia, a quest mob that's flagged as a group-level challenge that suggests a 5-person group take down. Canonically speaking, she also doesn't die in TBC, as you encounter her again in the Twilight Highlands during Cata, where you again have the aid of the Red drakonid Baleflame to assist you with finally killing her.

I'm not claiming you said that the dracthyr have the power of the Aspects, either; I mentioned their lower power relative to full dragons and the Aspects to further differentiate the dracthyr from the later Chromatic and Twilight flights, and from beings like Chromatus and Ultraxion that *did* have power akin to the Aspects. We do know where the dracthyr's relative power level is as well, we know it by virtue of the fact that they're slated to be a playable race in the game. They're power level is roughly equivalent to that of the rest of the mortals that comprise the playable races and classes - possibly slightly higher lore-wise owing to their unique nature, but certainly comparable, and exactly the same from a gameplay standpoint.

Once again, was he mixed his powers into a new school of magic (like how in game mechanics the astral is a mixture of arcane and nature; did Chromatus something like that?) or just using each power individually?


Hmm, didn't know that, thanks. Although I'm sure there are other similar quests. And as I said, the heroes of Azeroth have already defeated pit lords and eredars 1v1, so I guess the heroes could defeat the weaker dragons (even before losing power) 1v1


Ultraxion wasn't exactly at the level of the Aspect, otherwise the players wouldn't have been able to defeat him. He just attacked when the Aspects were at their most vulnerable and couldn't fight him on their own. Again, I think your average DH is stronger than your average hunter

[defibrillator]

Additional history does NOT equate to a "retcon". This is just additional backstory. There's no continuity problem since we really only know Neltharians past through major events like the stuff with Galakrond and his fall to madness shortly before/during the War of the Ancients and the First Cataclysm. We're talking about a section of Ancient Kalimdor that has been inviolate since the First Cataclysm. Even the Dragon Aspects, whose ancestral home this region, didn't know what was going on there until "StoneBro" ascended that tower and activated the Titan beacon that called them there.

Even the potential re-empowering of the Aspects would not be a "retcon" of the Cataclysm ending since they Titan stuff littered about the place could do it probably, although not as perfect as the Titans themselves.

To use a more modern example of this, look at Severus Snape. Look at all the information we're presented with in the first six books, especially his killing of Dumbeldore. We're seeing this basically from Harry's perspective. Blizzard borrowed this concept with Illidan who was a colossal jackhole after Tyrande released him, but in the end we learn he was actually fighting the Legion using means that made him appear villainous to us. Like we find out he and his Illidari were the ones who destroyed Nethreza and stole the Sargerite Keystone which allowed us to get to Argus and defeat the Legion.

It does. As I said, everything that contradicts already-established lore is a retcon. Your Snape example is terrible. Snape was always an ambiguous character who's loyalties were always questioned by the reader, but Dumbledore outright vouches for Snape 15 times before he gets killed. It's one of the few great pieces of writing in Harry Potter because both the "betrayal" and the "redemption" were already established narratively. Meanwhile Deathwing just comes out of nowhere and worfs Nefarian in science for no good reason other than that he's "muh aspect"

[Aucald]

Once again, was he mixed his powers into a new school of magic (like how in game mechanics the astral is a mixture of arcane and nature; did Chromatus something like that?) or just using each power individually?

Hmm, didn't know that, thanks. Although I'm sure there are other similar quests. And as I said, the heroes of Azeroth have already defeated pit lords and eredars 1v1, so I guess the heroes could defeat the weaker dragons (even before losing power) 1v1

Ultraxion wasn't exactly at the level of the Aspect, otherwise the players wouldn't have been able to defeat him. He just attacked when the Aspects were at their most vulnerable and couldn't fight him on their own. Again, I think your average DH is stronger than your average hunter

Based on how the combat in Twilight of the Aspects is described, Chromatius is wielding the individual powers simultaneously against multiple targets, aided by his 5 heads. So he could theoretically use his Bronze head to breathe a cloud of time-slowing sand while his Blue head fired out a funnel of freezing cold, or his Black head a spout of magma. He didn't mix the essences of said powers together as much as employ all 5 Aspect essences simultaneously yet individually, as combo-type attacks. Dracthyr also don't "mix" the various draconic essences, either; they have access to all 5 but on a lower tier of power, and said powers can only manifest as individual effects once cast. They can't combine those essences into a pure Kamehameha-style attack in the manner that the unified Aspects can, for example.

Generally speaking, mortal adventures can take down drakes 1:1, although that's by no means an amateur undertaking either. Fully-grown dragons are almost always a group endeavor, or else we're given material assistance or NPC support to contend with them, or the target has been weakened by external events or circumstances.

Ultraxion is posited as a threat to the Aspects, which is why I accord him Aspect-level power. Ultraxion is hypothesized to basically be a stand-in for Chromatus, which is why he drops a Chromatic drake mount in his loot table. Whether or not he's quite up to that level of power remains unknown, but he is the pinnacle of the Twilight flight that we've currently seen.

[Aydinx2]

I mean, Nefarian spent years creating chromatic dragons that wielded 5 dragon powers at once, and even when Deathwing personally continued these experiments, they had problems reviving Chromatus. Chromatic dragons simply died, apparently due to an overabundance of power. But now it turns out that once upon a time Neltharion simply created an entire race of Drakonids who wielded all 5 powers of the Aspects without any restrictions or consequences? Amazing

Where is the plothole? Dragons are not Drakonids. They wanted true Chromatic dragons, not Dracthyr.

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It does. As I said, everything that contradicts already-established lore is a retcon.

Only if they establish the new information as canon. Plotholes are not retcons.

[darkoms]

Based on how the combat in Twilight of the Aspects is described, Chromatius is wielding the individual powers simultaneously against multiple targets, aided by his 5 heads. So he could theoretically use his Bronze head to breathe a cloud of time-slowing sand while his Blue head fired out a funnel of freezing cold, or his Black head a spout of magma. He didn't mix the essences of said powers together as much as employ all 5 Aspect essences simultaneously yet individually, as combo-type attacks. Dracthyr also don't "mix" the various draconic essences, either; they have access to all 5 but on a lower tier of power, and said powers can only manifest as individual effects once cast. They can't combine those essences into a pure Kamehameha-style attack in the manner that the unified Aspects can, for example.

Generally speaking, mortal adventures can take down drakes 1:1, although that's by no means an amateur undertaking either. Fully-grown dragons are almost always a group endeavor, or else we're given material assistance or NPC support to contend with them, or the target has been weakened by external events or circumstances.

Ultraxion is posited as a threat to the Aspects, which is why I accord him Aspect-level power. Ultraxion is hypothesized to basically be a stand-in for Chromatus, which is why he drops a Chromatic drake mount in his loot table. Whether or not he's quite up to that level of power remains unknown, but he is the pinnacle of the Twilight flight that we've currently seen.

Yes, like I said, Dracthyrs do the same thing as Chromatus. They use different powers.




Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Dragons are not equal in strength, as are pit lords and eredar, and yet players can defeat them 1v1.



Again, he could only kill them because they were in their mortal forms and too busy doing other things. Garrosh killed Kairoz while he was in mortal form and turned away. This does not make Garrosh equal to Kairoz.

[Aucald]

Yes, like I said, Dracthyrs do the same thing as Chromatus. They use different powers.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Dragons are not equal in strength, as are pit lords and eredar, and yet players can defeat them 1v1.

Again, he could only kill them because they were in their mortal forms and too busy doing other things. Garrosh killed Kairoz while he was in mortal form and turned away. This does not make Garrosh equal to Kairoz.

On an exceedingly lower tier of power, and with a diminished retinue of powers depending on spec, sure. You're more hung up on a single thing that makes them quasi-unique, without seemingly understanding that they're nowhere near the class or potency of either Nefarion or Neltharion's later creations. The fact that Neltharion was tinkering with Chromatic dragons long ago doesn't retcon anything - the dracthyr were an early riff on the same basic thread, the thread that Nefarion and Neltharion both later picked up again with the true Chromatic and Twilight flights. If anything, it explains why Nefarion was actually able to headway on the project as quickly as he did, as genetic experimentation and speciation is a rather time-intensive process.

Overwhelmingly often yes, seldom no as the case stands out. Pit Lords and Eredar have a lot more power variances than your average full dragon.

Aspects can change their forms as seemingly a free action, and the Aspects weren't really in danger of being surprised and assassinated in the manner Kairoz was by Garrosh - they knew what was coming, more or less. Garrosh vs. Kairoz is also an entirely different class of conflict, since Kairoz is just a random Bronze dragon nowhere near the class of Anachronos or Soridormi, and Garrosh is a marquee character with a power level well beyond the average orc.

[NED funded]

Yes, like I said, Dracthyrs do the same thing as Chromatus. They use different powers.

Do we know how Dracthyr powers come around? I imagine we will see why they were discontinued

I dont want to be THAT guy but its way too early to say anything about the Dracthyrs except that they look kinda silly :P

[Aucald]

Do we know how Dracthyr powers come around? I imagine we will see why they were not continued

I dont want to be THAT guy but its way too early to say anything about the Dracthyrs except that they look kinda silly :P

The dracthyr's power are a result of Neltharion's tinkering, probably using the same elemental and primordial essences that the dragons themselves possess, melded into a humanoid creature. Equally possible that, like with his creation of the Dragon Soul, the other dragonflights allowed him to "borrow" some of their essences for the purposes of making the dracthyr since this was back in the day when Neltharion wasn't bonkers.

As you said, we'll likely learn more as part of their intro experience in Dragonflight proper.

[Powerogue]

Not that big of a deal. The trouble was creating true chromatic dragons, not these comparatively puny dragon/mortal hybrids.

That's a fair point. These are dragon/mortal hybrids, rather than "full dragons", and also presumably free willed rather than tied to the will of Deathwing's dark masters. Less than ideal. But now THIS, this is beautiful.

[darkoms]

On an exceedingly lower tier of power, and with a diminished retinue of powers depending on spec, sure. You're more hung up on a single thing that makes them quasi-unique, without seemingly understanding that they're nowhere near the class or potency of either Nefarion or Neltharion's later creations. The fact that Neltharion was tinkering with Chromatic dragons long ago doesn't retcon anything - the dracthyr were an early riff on the same basic thread, the thread that Nefarion and Neltharion both later picked up again with the true Chromatic and Twilight flights. If anything, it explains why Nefarion was actually able to headway on the project as quickly as he did, as genetic experimentation and speciation is a rather time-intensive process.

Overwhelmingly often yes, seldom no as the case stands out. Pit Lords and Eredar have a lot more power variances than your average full dragon.

Aspects can change their forms as seemingly a free action, and the Aspects weren't really in danger of being surprised and assassinated in the manner Kairoz was by Garrosh - they knew what was coming, more or less. Garrosh vs. Kairoz is also an entirely different class of conflict, since Kairoz is just a random Bronze dragon nowhere near the class of Anachronos or Soridormi, and Garrosh is a marquee character with a power level well beyond the average orc.

Well, it seems your original statement was that they can't do the same thing as chromatic dragons? We also still don't know their power level. It seems to me that a Draktir with 5 strength is more dangerous than a dragon with 1 strength.


Why did you decide so? In both cases, there is a gap in power between the more powerful and the weaker representatives, but I think the average dragon, although stronger than the pit lord or eredar, is still about the same league as them. I have no doubt that around the time of the Legion, our heroes became powerful enough to defeat both dragons and high demons 1 on 1 (although I always found this strange, in Warhammer 40k, defeating some Great Demon is considered a huge achievement and impossible even for someone something like Custodes, we have them killed in quests)



The Aspects were clearly working with the power of the Dragon Soul at that moment, attuning it with the Rainbow Focus, weren't they? Maybe they just couldn't drop everything and go fight. Just because Ultraxion could kill them in their forms doesn't make him Aspect level, Fandral was able to stun Aspects in their human forms under Hyjal when he unexpectedly attacked doesn't mean he's Aspect level. We don't know how strong Kairoz is and like I said, Garrosh attacked him when he turned away and was in his human form. They didn't fight

[Aucald]

Well, it seems your original statement was that they can't do the same thing as chromatic dragons? We also still don't know their power level. It seems to me that a Draktir with 5 strength is more dangerous than a dragon with 1 strength.

Why did you decide so? In both cases, there is a gap in power between the more powerful and the weaker representatives, but I think the average dragon, although stronger than the pit lord or eredar, is still about the same league as them. I have no doubt that around the time of the Legion, our heroes became powerful enough to defeat both dragons and high demons 1 on 1 (although I always found this strange, in Warhammer 40k, defeating some Great Demon is considered a huge achievement and impossible even for someone something like Custodes, we have them killed in quests)

The Aspects were clearly working with the power of the Dragon Soul at that moment, attuning it with the Rainbow Focus, weren't they? Maybe they just couldn't drop everything and go fight. Just because Ultraxion could kill them in their forms doesn't make him Aspect level, Fandral was able to stun Aspects in their human forms under Hyjal when he unexpectedly attacked doesn't mean he's Aspect level. We don't know how strong Kairoz is and like I said, Garrosh attacked him when he turned away and was in his human form. They didn't fight

They actually can do a similar thing to Chromatic dragons, although they're called Prismatic by means of delineation (chromatic being multiple colors, and prismatic being a medium that separates light into different wavelengths). So, in essence, what dracthyr do is use a recombinant source of draconic essence that contains multiple potentialities, and then distill that potential into a single effect as needed, for instance using red/green essence for healing, black for earth/fire attacks, blue for frost/arcane, etc. Chromatic dragons combine Aspect-related powers in an attempt to combine strengths, prismatic dracthyr rely more on versatility without the same raw strength. As for your X strength comparison, there are no dragons with "1 strength," they'd start much higher on whatever scale we're talking about. The dracthyr are more at the drake or drakonid tier of draconic power.

There's a distinct divide between gameplay vs. lore when it comes to individual and racial power ratings or rankings. But generally speaking, in terms of lore, dragons are one of the higher tier threats that don't have the same lower echelons that either Pit Lords or eredar can have. Yes, you can have a handful of eredar who are very powerful, like Archimonde or Kil'jaeden, powers that could even contend with an Aspect or a Wild God if they so chose. But you also have eredar and annihilan who are essentially grunts, and killable by a single adventurer or what have you. Beyond that, we could split hairs all day long when it comes to trying to rank various things in the tiers of power - it's generally a fruitless endeavor.

The question about Ultraxion is open-ended, but also irrelevant. Maybe he's not Aspect-tier, but he is the greatest thus far of the Twilight dragons, and a significant threat in his own right since even an Aspect (Ysera) feared his approach, not to mention that he was a weapon deployed by Deathwing to kill both the heroes and the Aspects potentially all at once. Aspects aren't invulnerable, either; they can and have been killed under certain circumstances - but no one can really deny that they are powerful, perhaps one of the greatest singular powers on Azeroth. As for Kairoz, we see him in his dragon form, and he's just a standard Brone dragon - noteworthy, certainly, but not in the same order as the elder wyrms like Anachronos or Nozdormu himself. A more powerful Bronze might've been able to freeze Garrosh in time well before he was even able to strike, or use their chronomantic abilities to precisely predict their treacherousness.