ONLY 4 new dungeons for M+ initially

[Celement]

If dungeons were trivial to design, they'd make tons of them. The idea that these are easy pieces of content to make is insane. They are almost certainly the HARDEST piece of content to design, far harder than raids.

Ive not said otherwise... though I imagine raids are harder given the number of players they are certainly comparable.

[Jujudrood]

There's good and bad to the approach.

The good is that having a 4 new/4 old split offers some variety in the gear so I'm not just farming the same thing every tier.
It also offers some freshness in bringing back dungeons that are just mog farms and otherwise doing nothing of value by sitting unused.
A rotation means something relatively new (compared to previous tier) so mix it up because, tbh, running the same dungeons for 2+ years straight does get old.

The bad is that only 4 of the 8 are M+ worthy, meaning that beyond the first couple weeks of launch, 4 of the dungeons will not see any activity and more or less be completely irrelevant.
Not a great look when your brand new content is not useful in any meaningful way.
I'm assuming they will split them into "group A and B" dungeon sets, so A gets S1, B gets S2, and back and forth.
This means by S2, we are effectively learning new dungeons (bc there was no prior M+ with them) as well as refreshing ourselves on older ones, so it may be a rocky start once S2 kicks off.

Overall I think this approach can be good, but I would have liked to see them kick it up to maybe 6 "current" to alleviate the whole "new content not used" thing a little, then do a round robin of which 2 "sit out" the next tier, so there's still that familiarity and it's a little easier starting the next season.
I would keep the old dungeons to 4, for a total of 10 dungeons in the mix, which would also offer a larger loot pool and room for more items to build the "alternative BiS" for second tier items in case the one you want evades you, but also just because there's 36 specs and not everyone wants to be limited to crit/mast or haste/crit on their pants; maybe a couple more dungeons offers another pants option, who knows.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[NineSpine]

Ive not said otherwise... though I imagine raids are harder given the number of players they are certainly comparable.

Given class variance, I'd imagine it is harder to design content made to be balanced for an unpredictable composition than a fairly predictable composition. Raids are fairly predictable in terms of comp. Dungeons are not. Dungeons also need to be susceptible to affixes, which adds a whole layer of complexity, and given the timed aspect of M+ you have another layer that has to strongly counter exploits that could skip time. It's a mess of factors that looks like a nightmare to develop and balance for.

The bottom line is that what you are asking for is an absolute fantasy and is clearly never going to happen.

[Finlandia WOAT]

I would rather have the 8 new along with rotating time walking ones,yes. It isnt as good as having new dungeons but it's the better of two bad choices.

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Unless they are giving the mobs new abilities alongside the bosses it's just a rehash. By itself it isn't bad but it can't take the place of new content.

Hell we already saw this play out with naxx in wrath.

But it's not taking the place of new content!

BfA: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac
SL: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac
DF: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac

They're not replacing any content, they're adding a seasonal rotation with reworked old dungeons so players aren't running the same 8 dungeons for 2+ years.

I think this is a great addition, and pretending this is replacing content or cutting content is disingenuous. They're adding a rotation with the idea of keeping the dungeons from becoming stale.

[Rayr]

I don't know why you're intent on changing my opinion. I have played all of these dungeons hundreds if not thousands of times. I am sincerely not interested in having them as Mythic dungeons. I would much rather get just brand new dungeons and burn out on those than have to do the ones I am already burnt out on. I don't know why that is a hard concept for you to understand. You don't even have to agree with me. Can can legit go "ok that's cool for you, I disagree I like the change." And that could be it. but for some reason beyond my comprehension you're dead set on arguing with me on the internet like any of this even matters. And the only reason I am even responding at this point is because this god awful zoom meeting I have to sit in is going to last for another 20 minutes.

Because that’s what you’re literally asking me to do. You asked me to explain to you why your opinion was short sighted. You have claimed that you have done these dungeon thousands of times (which is weird that you’re running mop dungeons that often in 2022 but w/e) and your solution is to just ask for 8 new dungeons to spam for the next TWO years so you can get burnt out on them. You are recreate your problem which is why your opinion is short sighted and quite honestly dumb.

If someone ate nothing but hamburgers for a year straight, then nothing but spaghetti for a year straight, then nothing but sandwiches for a year straight, and I walked up to them and said “hey how about we cycle through these meals and add in a new food to the cycle” and that person said “no just give me a new food to eat for a year, I’m burnt out on that food” I would refer them to a psych ward for being fucking insane. And yet you’re sitting here displaying this same behavior and defending it.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything. It’s your choice to have silly opinions. But you legit asked me to tell you why it’s silly. And I did just that.

[Celement]

Given class variance, I'd imagine it is harder to design content made to be balanced for an unpredictable composition than a fairly predictable composition. Raids are fairly predictable in terms of comp. Dungeons are not. Dungeons also need to be susceptible to affixes, which adds a whole layer of complexity, and given the timed aspect of M+ you have another layer that has to strongly counter exploits that could skip time. It's a mess of factors that looks like a nightmare to develop and balance for.

The bottom line is that what you are asking for is an absolute fantasy and is clearly never going to happen.

Do you want to go back a few posts and keep on that train of thought or swap to making content for a big name game is resource intensive?

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But it's not taking the place of new content!

BfA: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac
SL: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac
DF: 10 brand new Mythic + dungeons over expac

They're not replacing any content, they're adding a seasonal rotation with reworked old dungeons so players aren't running the same 8 dungeons for 2+ years.

I think this is a great addition, and pretending this is replacing content or cutting content is disingenuous. They're adding a rotation with the idea of keeping the dungeons from becoming stale.

Right it is a good feature I'm not knocking it I'm pointing out it needs more new content with it then 4 dungeons.

[Rayr]

Do you want to go back a few posts and keep on that train of thought or swap to making content for a big name game is resource intensive?

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Right it is a good feature I'm not knocking it I'm pointing out it needs more new content with it then 4 dungeons.

But why? What’s the reason for that?

[Talon8669]

Because that’s what you’re literally asking me to do. You asked me to explain to you why your opinion was short sighted. You have claimed that you have done these dungeon thousands of times (which is weird that you’re running mop dungeons that often in 2022 but w/e) and your solution is to just ask for 8 new dungeons to spam for the next TWO years so you can get burnt out on them. You are recreate your problem which is why your opinion is short sighted and quite honestly dumb.

If someone ate nothing but hamburgers for a year straight, then nothing but spaghetti for a year straight, then nothing but sandwiches for a year straight, and I walked up to them and said “hey how about we cycle through these meals and add in a new food to the cycle” and that person said “no just give me a new food to eat for a year, I’m burnt out on that food” I would refer them to a psych ward for being fucking insane. And yet you’re sitting here displaying this same behavior and defending it.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything. It’s your choice to have silly opinions. But you legit asked me to tell you why it’s silly. And I did just that.

But we're not talking about food we're talking about a video game that I am going to log into every now and then run a few dungeons and log out. Your comparison is complete shit. And you solution of running content I don't ever want to run again versus content I have never run and saying well just mix them up is fucking retarded. I do not every want to run a MOP, CATA, W/E dungeon again especially as a mythic. If I want to run that shit I will wait for them to be released as Classic content. So nice try but ya failed.

[Celement]

But why? What’s the reason for that?

For wanting more then four new dungeons?

[Rageonit]

But we're not talking about food we're talking about a video game that I am going to log into every now and then run a few dungeons and log out. Your comparison is complete shit. And you solution of running content I don't ever want to run again versus content I have never run and saying well just mix them up is fucking retarded. I do not every want to run a MOP, CATA, W/E dungeon again especially as a mythic. If I want to run that shit I will wait for them to be released as Classic content. So nice try but ya failed.

He didn't fail in anything, he explained to you why your opinion is short-sighted. And your answer is pretty much: "Yeah, but it's my opinion and I enjoy it being short-sigthed!". Which is fine, really, it's not a crime to have short-sigthed opinions. But lets just call them what they are.

[Rayr]

But we're not talking about food we're talking about a video game that I am going to log into every now and then run a few dungeons and log out. Your comparison is complete shit. And you solution of running content I don't ever want to run again versus content I have never run and saying well just mix them up is fucking retarded. I do not every want to run a MOP, CATA, W/E dungeon again especially as a mythic. If I want to run that shit I will wait for them to be released as Classic content. So nice try but ya failed.

Trust me, if you didn’t get it after I fully layed out your contradictions and your obvious short sighted behavior it isn’t a failure on my part lol. That’s an issue with you.

And the comparison works just fine. You straight up said you hate running new content after 2 years because you get burnt out on it, so this is the only solution which is to add some variety to your dungeons by intertwining new with old. You are going to endlessly recreate a situation you yourself even admitted to hating. If you honest to god don’t see the issue there, I don’t even think I can explain 1+1 to you.

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For wanting more then four new dungeons?

Four new dungeons in the mythic pool, yes

[Talon8669]

For wanting more then four new dungeons?

People in this thread simply cannot fathom that other players might not want to do old content rehashed as new content and would rather just do new content.

[exsanguinate]

I like it. good

[Sarange]

I'm just pointing out how hard you are strawmaning responding to arguments I've never made to make absurd counter arguments I'm not bothering to respond to.

Is it because you were wrong?

[Talon8669]

Trust me, if you didn’t get it after I fully layed out your contradictions and your obvious short sighted behavior it isn’t a failure on my part lol. That’s an issue with you.

And the comparison works just fine. You straight up said you hate running new content after 2 years because you get burnt out on it, so this is the only solution which is to add some variety to your dungeons by intertwining new with old. You are going to endlessly recreate a situation you yourself even admitted to hating. If you honest to god don’t see the issue there, I don’t even think I can explain 1+1 to you.

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Four new dungeons in the mythic pool, yes

Honestly I think you'd probably the dumbest person I have had to interact with today. I don't know how you cannot understand why someone wouldn't want to do older content again that has been rehashed and presented as new content. I don't see fun in that at all. What Blizzard should do is 8 new dungeons and then release more new dungeons throughout the expansion and then at some point make the revolving door 8 dungeons for mythic and sub dungeons in and out to make the grind of those dungeons less painful. But hey man if you're ok with doing old dungeons that's cool, good for you. I think you're a tool but that's cool. I don't want to do the older dungeons been there done that, will do it again if they become classic content. And guess what sport, we can disagree. Which is what you're going to have to settle for. So pat yourself on the back, you got your internet participation trophy.

[Alexjimithing]

Honestly I think you'd probably the dumbest person I have had to interact with today. I don't know how you cannot understand why someone wouldn't want to do older content again that has been rehashed and presented as new content. I don't see fun in that at all. What Blizzard should do is 8 new dungeons and then release more new dungeons throughout the expansion and then at some point make the revolving door 8 dungeons for mythic and sub dungeons in and out to make the grind of those dungeons less painful. But hey man if you're ok with doing old dungeons that's cool, good for you. I think you're a tool but that's cool. I don't want to do the older dungeons been there done that, will do it again if they become classic content. And guess what sport, we can disagree. Which is what you're going to have to settle for. So pat yourself on the back, you got your internet participation trophy.

So like.....you DON'T want to play old content if it's reworked for current endgame because you're burned out on it but you DO want to play it in Classic where it's -exactly the same- as it was when you got burnt out on it.

lol

[Rayr]

Honestly I think you'd probably the dumbest person I have had to interact with today. I don't know how you cannot understand why someone wouldn't want to do older content again that has been rehashed and presented as new content. I don't see fun in that at all. What Blizzard should do is 8 new dungeons and then release more new dungeons throughout the expansion and then at some point make the revolving door 8 dungeons for mythic and sub dungeons in and out to make the grind of those dungeons less painful. But hey man if you're ok with doing old dungeons that's cool, good for you. I think you're a tool but that's cool. I don't want to do the older dungeons been there done that, will do it again if they become classic content. And guess what sport, we can disagree. Which is what you're going to have to settle for. So pat yourself on the back, you got your internet participation trophy.

You’re living in a world of delusion. Let me know when you get back to reality. What you just suggested isn’t realistic even in the slightest bit. I prefer to stay in reality and promote system that can actually happen and be beneficial to the game.

Also, I understand you’re upset, but if you go around calling someone “the dumbest person they met today” after I literally just pointed out clear contradictions in your own logic, that only looks bad on you not me. Just a little tip.

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So like.....you DON'T want to play old content if it's reworked for current endgame because you're burned out on it but you DO want to play it in Classic where it's -exactly the same- as it was when you got burnt out on it.

lol

Omg I missed that part…. This dude just keeps getting better and better LOL.

“I DONT EVER WANT TO PLAY IT AGAIN”

“I’ll play it again BUT NOT HERE I WONT”

I honestly don’t think he will makes this connection

[TidalConflux]

Splitting Hairs: The Thread.

The only real "problem" with this is that they arent doing the 8 DF dungeons for the first season -- it should have waited until S2 to do old dungeons, but thats really nothing too problematic.

[Talon8669]

You’re living in a world of delusion. Let me know when you get back to reality. What you just suggested isn’t realistic even in the slightest bit. I prefer to stay in reality and promote system that can actually happen and be beneficial to the game.

Also, I understand you’re upset, but if you go around calling someone “the dumbest person they met today” after I literally just pointed out clear contradictions in your own logic, that only looks bad on you not me. Just a little tip.

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Omg I missed that part…. This dude just keeps getting better and better LOL.

“I DONT EVER WANT TO PLAY IT AGAIN”

“I’ll play it again BUT NOT HERE I WONT”

I honestly don’t think he will makes this connection

So you think it's unrealistic for blizzard to make dungeons for release and then make more dungeons and release them later in the xpac? You're right they have never done that before. And I caught the wording. Difference with classic is if I wanted to play classic I could. By dumping that old content into current I either have to ignore half of the current mythic content or be forced to play it. Huge difference there. And honestly I probably will play the classic and just pvp like I have up to this point. But nice try champ. Anyways Zoom is over now I have to go do real people things so have a good day sport.

[Khaza-R]

Splitting Hairs: The Thread.

The only real "problem" with this is that they arent doing the 8 DF dungeons for the first season -- it should have waited until S2 to do old dungeons, but thats really nothing too problematic.

I can get why people would want the new content to be front loaded but I think it would be more jarring to then switch to season 2 and have nothing but older dungeons (even if significantly updated). Personally, I think the mix of modern and older stuff should be kind of nice.