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  1. #1

    Now would be the perfect time to reintroduce 10man mythic

    IMHO, 10man mythic progression was the best time I've had raiding in WoW. The culling of that (including the removal of flying / adding of pathfinder) are what killed retail for me. I'm not going to go into the merits / pitfalls of 10man v/s 20/5man mythic, as those arguments have been discussed here ad nauseum, just the simple point that this is important to me, and potentially others like me.

    My suggestion, doubtfully new/unique, is to tie 10man mythic progression to the unlock of X-Realm Mythic. In this way it doesn't compete with the WF race and maintains 20man as the "king" in that regard. There would most likely still be a 10man WF race whenever it unlocks, but presumably less relevant as the ones that have completed the primary WF race would just be able to stomp it by then. What this does achieve is that it allows 10+ person guilds to be a thing and have a valid avenue to progress via raids.

    Side Note: The simplest solution to class mechanic constraints from downsizing to 10mans (where not every class/spec can be represented equally), is to borrow the mechanic from Instructor Razuvious, where if you don't have priests to reliably MC the adds, there are mechanical controls available that allow for that. It doesn't always have to be exactly like this, but the same idea can be reused for every class/spec specific mechanic that needs to be ported to 10mans.

  2. #2
    To do it correctly: it must have its own unique instances. This is because it would compete with 20man or 5man hard modes and one of the main reasons 10man and 25man hard mode could not co-exist was that there was constant infighting about which one is the hardest per boss and hence which one deserves the most credit.

    It also would create a better balance between 5man and 20man; one is small and is therefore formed easily in the middle of the day but its metas are more debilitating than the 20man metas because it excludes the most classes above level ~20+; 10man hard mode instead of "moar 5mans" would be a better middle ground.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-04-20 at 10:29 AM.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    To do it correctly: it must have its own unique instances. This is because it would compete with 20man or 5man hard modes and one of the main reasons 10man and 25man hard mode could not co-exist was that there was constant infighting about which one is the hardest per boss and hence which one deserves the most credit.
    It doesn't need a unique instance. By gating 10man mythic after the 20man WF, there is no debate anymore which is "harder". Either you're competing for WF, or you aren't. 10man won't be. 10man should be to offer an alternative to 20man for those that dislike the larger the raid size.

  4. #4
    There never was 10 man mythic. And before you make the effort to make another version of the raid (because that's what it is) you could make it flex, because that would be easier.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    There never was 10 man mythic. And before you make the effort to make another version of the raid (because that's what it is) you could make it flex, because that would be easier.
    mythic is just what heroic was before. and flex is also fine.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Trifande View Post
    It doesn't need a unique instance. By gating 10man mythic after the 20man WF, there is no debate anymore which is "harder". Either you're competing for WF, or you aren't. 10man won't be. 10man should be to offer an alternative to 20man for those that dislike the larger the raid size.
    That's not a good solution. It would just make 10man artificially lame and it will STILL keep the flamewars of which was the hardest because doing it later does not necessarily mean it's easier or harder.

    Just make unique instances or not at all because in that case 5man instances could also be 20man and they aren't for similar reasons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    There never was 10 man mythic. And before you make the effort to make another version of the raid (because that's what it is) you could make it flex, because that would be easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trifande View Post
    mythic is just what heroic was before. and flex is also fine.
    Flex is completely irrelevant to discussions like this. It's about hard mode and nobody cares about balance in easy modes because it clears anyway.

    And you can't flex hard mode because it's imbalanceable just like it's imbalanceable to have both 10man and 20man hard mode.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-04-20 at 11:38 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's not a good solution. It would just make 10man artificially lame and it will STILL keep the flamewars of which was the hardest because doing it later does not necessarily mean it's easier or harder.

    Just make unique instances or not at all because in that case 5man instances could also be 20man and they aren't for similar reasons.
    the people who care about 10man don't care if others consider it lame. They/we just want a mode of progression and challenge that's not tied to large raid/guild sizes. Flamewars are NOT a reason to design around or a reason to limit the flexibility of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Flex is completely irrelevant to discussions like this. It's about hard mode and nobody cares about balance in easy modes because it clears anyway.

    And you can't flex hard mode because it's imbalanceable just like it's imbalanceable to have both 10man and 20man hard mode.
    balance doesn't need to exist between 10/flex and 20man mythic. It's fine for bosses to be sometimes harder in 10/flex and sometimes harder in 20man, as long as the WF race caters to the 20man format. If you're not competing for WF / top 100, then you're not really hitting the cutting edge (pun not intended). If you need to wait to learn the strategies from the trail blazers and wait till you have a higher average raid ilvl then any differences b/w 10/flex and 20man mythic are irrelevant.

    Competing for WF/top 100 per region => 20man mythic
    Prefer larger raid sizes => 20man mythic

    Prefer 10/flex, but don't care about WF/top 100 => 10/flex mythic

    Prefer 10/flex, but do care about WF/top 100 => shit out of luck

    And yes, it's more effort for Blizz devs to cater to this, but that doesn't mean it's not feasible.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer ercarp's Avatar
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    Give me 10-man Mythic+ Megadungeons and we'll talk.

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    10 man mythic? I doubt there was smth like that except flexible :P 10HC was a thing. Not mythic as i remember.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    10 man mythic? I doubt there was smth like that except flexible :P 10HC was a thing. Not mythic as i remember.
    Heroic was renamed to Mythic. It kept the same difficulty level.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valhalladin View Post
    Heroic was renamed to Mythic. It kept the same difficulty level.
    Not really. Mythic was introduce as highest diff level that never before :P

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Trifande View Post
    the people who care about 10man don't care if others consider it lame.
    Talk like that is objectively contradictive. The very fact you will run HARD MODE 10man automatically PROVES you will collect people who care about rankings and the prestige of rankings; it does not matter if you claim you won't do it yourself; the guilds on the top 10 of that hard mode will not be you and they will often be the SAME guilds that currently run the hard mode 20mans because they are the ones interested in that kind of thing and we know that overlap existed with the 25man and 10man ranks when they coexisted in hard modes in the past.

    You must have 10man in unique instances if you want (good) devs to even consider it; the flamewars about which of the two (10man or 25man) was the most prestigious were insane in intensity; it would also alleviate the overvaluing of 5man currently which is a tiny gametype in a game of dozens upon dozens of specs which creates extremist metas of a handful of specs above level ~20.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-04-21 at 06:47 AM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Trifande View Post
    mythic is just what heroic was before. and flex is also fine.
    Difficulty wise just big fat no lol, not even the same league.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    Not really. Mythic was introduce as highest diff level that never before :P
    That was marketing bs though if it even existed (I don't remember it even existing as an official statement but that's besides the point).

    During WotLK for example: the game had nearly 20 million people online at some point.

    They were not noobs on the top 20; they were extremely higher skilled than now because of the sheer number of more competitors; you can't wipe for days or weeks on the same boss with ~20 million people online and seriously claim "it's was clearly lower difficulty").
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  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That was marketing bs though if it even existed (I don't remember it even existing as an official statement but that's besides the point).

    During WotLK for example: the game had nearly 20 million people online at some point.

    They were not noobs on the top 20; they were extremely higher skilled than now because of the sheer number of more competitors; you can't wipe for days or weeks on the same boss with ~20 million people online and seriously claim "it's was clearly lower difficulty").
    Marketing bs? I would question it highly. Old HC vs actual Myth does not match same diff and never was tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    Difficulty wise just big fat no lol, not even the same league.
    Ill sign over this. Old HC does not match same diff as Mythic!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    Marketing bs? I would question it highly. Old HC vs actual Myth does not match same diff and never was tbh.
    Those are empty mantras, if you don't provide proof. In a game with multiple millions more players wiping for multiple days or weeks on the same boss: you have to bring conclusive evidence that it was "easier" to down bosses back then (and marketing talk by devs is not proof either (if it even existed)).
    Last edited by epigramx; 2022-04-21 at 07:12 AM.
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  17. #17
    Never been a 10M mythic, nothing to reintroduce.

    Mythic is balanced around 20 people, exact. Adding another layer would fuck it up big. If you want 10 man content, you gotta settle for HC or Normal. Or do M+ as 5.

  18. #18
    10m Mythic needs to return in some form be it new raids or scaling the 20m raids to 10m for an additional mode. A TON of people would return of 10m Mythic would return and it would be an easy win for blizzard.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    10m Mythic needs to return in some form be it new raids or scaling the 20m raids to 10m for an additional mode. A TON of people would return of 10m Mythic would return and it would be an easy win for blizzard.
    There was never a 10man mythic raid size, so it can't 'return'.

    And no, 10man heroics were not the same as mythics in difficulty. Not even remotely close.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    Never been a 10M mythic, nothing to reintroduce.

    Mythic is balanced around 20 people, exact. Adding another layer would fuck it up big. If you want 10 man content, you gotta settle for HC or Normal. Or do M+ as 5.
    Yes on the problems it would cause that way, but there's an extra solution that will potentially improve even the current difficulties. It could have its own unique new instances; you are correct it can't just downscale 20man (because we'd return to the flamewars between 25man and 10man of the past about which one is the most prestigious because they are imbalanceable); unique new instances would also have the extra bonus benefit (which is potentially huge) of reducing the overvalueing of 5man instances currently (they keep pushing the players to do more and more 5manning) which is technically an imbalanceable mess in itself because in a game of dozens of specs: tiny 5man creates metas of a handful of specs above level ~20 excluding the most players out of it.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

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