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  1. #401
    Pandaren Monk Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Mythic players are way more than 0.1% of the player base. Today its more likely that you can swap the numbers and remove the dot, 10%.

    In SoO 9000 guilds killed at least one boss on mythic. 22k on normal. We are closing in on half of the amount of normal players(41%ish). Which wasn't the case just a few years ago. In Tomb of Sargeras it was 9k vs 31k. Less than 30%. Going back in time, the raiders were even at even lower percentages simply because it had more players and more players are likely to have a bigger spread on what content they are playing.

    If anything, blizzard should cater more to those who already play the game and has done for years, the raiders.
    You aren't really thinking that people who killed the first "boss" on mythic are mythic raiders, right?

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I raid both LFR and in TBC Classic, and I can tell you, LFR is 10 times harder. 3 Rygelon kills, 5 Rygelon wipes. 10 Illidan kills, 0 Illidan wipes. That's one example. And for Illidan it's chill, like very casual, alts in the raid. In LFR, it feels like everyone tryhard like insane. If my dad gamer group from Illidan would try Rygelon, we prolly wipe 20 times before being close to a kill.
    Are you doing LFR with the same people who are doing Illidan ?
    Or are you doing LFR with a bunch of unknow people without coordination and running all over the place like headless chickens ?
    Because that could certainly explain the difference. I highly doubt that the average LFR clueless group wouldn't wipe on the Shard of Azeroth ten times in a row.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I raid both LFR and in TBC Classic, and I can tell you, LFR is 10 times harder. 3 Rygelon kills, 5 Rygelon wipes. 10 Illidan kills, 0 Illidan wipes. That's one example. And for Illidan it's chill, like very casual, alts in the raid. In LFR, it feels like everyone tryhard like insane. If my dad gamer group from Illidan would try Rygelon, we prolly wipe 20 times before being close to a kill. You can call us bad, but if we can do TBC endbosses but not LFR, it proves LFR is quite hard these days.
    I am not saying TBC is hard - it is not. It is joke for moderately coordinated and T5+ geared guilds...
    But now try to clear BT with TOTALLY RANDOM people with 0 consumes, one shot machanics, not pulling and aoeing all trash, no voice coms, no 234232 raid cooldowns, AFKing players and much, much more.
    It is like comparing orange to apple.

  4. #404
    Unfortunately most casual progression is through M+ or LFR, both of which are absolutely miserable forms of progression for casual players, which is why badges that keep gear mostly relevant and a raid that was somewhat challenging but could be done by casuals in lower numbers, made Wrath so popular. Whatever the case is, the fact there's no changes to M+ is a little disappointing.

    There is very little ever added to this game as side content, similar in scale to pet battles. And don't even get me started on Mythic raiding, which is overtuned for world first races because Blizzard has to make every one of their games nonsensically an E-SpOrT. In fact, I'd say even those people got fucked over. I don't know how it became but the reality when I did it early in this expansion, raids dropped so little gear it felt like it was a waste of time, to the point you just obtained most of your gear as a mythic raider.. from the fucking weekly slot machine.
    Last edited by La; 2022-05-06 at 09:56 AM.
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  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    I am not saying TBC is hard - it is not. It is joke for moderately coordinated and T5+ geared guilds...
    But now try to clear BT with TOTALLY RANDOM people with 0 consumes, one shot machanics, not pulling and aoeing all trash, no voice coms, no 234232 raid cooldowns, AFKing players and much, much more.
    It is like comparing orange to apple.
    I feel it's safe to compare it to modern day heroic more or less at least. I am sure you could argue it's a little off..

    Is it possible to pug? Sure but you would want to filter the group.

  6. #406
    This guy is just bad

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    This guy doesnt know this fucking game is design for trash casuals

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    You aren't really thinking that people who killed the first "boss" on mythic are mythic raiders, right?
    They technically are Mythic raiders, since they are raiding in mythic difficulty. I don't know why you wanna argue that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  8. #408
    Pandaren Monk Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    They technically are Mythic raiders, since they are raiding in mythic difficulty. I don't know why you wanna argue that.
    It's not raiding if you only kill the first free-loot boss. Also clearly "designing the game for 1% of the players" means Cutting Edge players. And honestly, I wouldn't even bother with raiding if I couldn't get Cutting Edge lol.

    Or in other words - if they would change the reward structure to match the upcoming fated raid+ season (normal gives a mount, heroic a title and mythic the portals) I wouldn't bother with mythic anymore, because I play for the mount, which is catering to the 1%.
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-05-06 at 11:43 AM.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's not raiding if you only kill the first free-loot boss. Also clearly "designing the game for 0,1 of the players" means Cutting Edge players. And honestly, I wouldn't even bother with raiding if I couldn't get Cutting Edge lol.
    More to the point, the players who are 1/N in mythic are likely not going to base their satisfaction with the game on the presence of mythic raids.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's not raiding if you only kill the first free-loot boss. Also clearly "designing the game for 1% of the players" means Cutting Edge players. And honestly, I wouldn't even bother with raiding if I couldn't get Cutting Edge lol.

    Or in other words - if they would change the reward structure to match the upcoming fated raid+ season (normal gives a mount, heroic a title and mythic the portals) I wouldn't bother with mythic anymore, because I play for the mount, which is catering to the 1%.
    So all the guilds that are one boss short from CE aren't Mythic Raiders ? This isn't about how easy/hard the bosses are. If you kill bosses in normal mode, you raid normal (regardless of the amount), if you kill them on heroic : heroic raider, if you kill some on mythic you're a mythic raider. This is like saying "nuh huh you haven't timed a 20 because it was NW and NW20 is free".

    I don't bother raiding, at all, but if I were in a guild and we ONLY had the first 3 down, I would consider myself a mythic raider. It's still more than 95% (made up number) of what the playerbase is capable of.

    "I'm not gonna bother running because if I can't beat Usain Bolt there's no point". This is what your post sounds like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  11. #411
    I'd definitely argue they need more CHALLENGING content for Solo players - with unique cosmetic rewards - They've even brought the mage towers back because of how popular they are..

    But there's so much to do for casuals to progress as much as anyone really needs to progress and so many other activities and achievements available.

    Sure you can't get the highest ilvls in the latest patch, but there's no real need for that if you're not even planning on doing any of that content. That's why i feel more transmog for solo difficult challenges would be a good approach.

    I actually think there's a large amount of players who don't really want to do anything challenging, and even wouldn't do things like the mage tower - I don't get why or how they feel they should be "progressing" - Even for that market then things like the Cypher gear should be enough surely?
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2022-05-06 at 11:55 AM.
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  12. #412
    Pandaren Monk Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    So all the guilds that are one boss short from CE aren't Mythic Raiders ? This isn't about how easy/hard the bosses are. If you kill bosses in normal mode, you raid normal (regardless of the amount), if you kill them on heroic : heroic raider, if you kill some on mythic you're a mythic raider. This is like saying "nuh huh you haven't timed a 20 because it was NW and NW20 is free".

    I don't bother raiding, at all, but if I were in a guild and we ONLY had the first 3 down, I would consider myself a mythic raider. It's still more than 95% (made up number) of what the playerbase is capable of.

    "I'm not gonna bother running because if I can't beat Usain Bolt there's no point". This is what your post sounds like.
    No, killing multiple bosses is raiding because people progress on the raid. Killing one boss because he is a freeloot "encounter" isn't raiding my dude. Raiding means progressing. And there are normal raiders, heroic raiders, curve raiders, mythic raiders and cutting edge raiders. Oh, and I guess lfr raiders kekW.

    And yes, if all you do is clearing heroic and killing the first boss on mythic without trying any other mythic bosses, you are still a curve/heroic raider.
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-05-06 at 12:18 PM.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    No, killing multiple bosses is raiding because people progress on the raid. Killing one boss because he is a freeloot "encounter" isn't raiding my dude. Raiding means progressing. And there are normal raiders, heroic raiders, curve raiders, mythic raiders and cutting edge raiders. Oh, and I guess lfr raiders kekW.

    And yes, if all you do is clearing heroic and killing the first boss on mythic without trying any other mythic bosses, you are still a curve/heroic raider.
    Maybe we're progressing on the second boss, and only managed to kill the first one so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  14. #414
    Pandaren Monk Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Maybe we're progressing on the second boss, and only managed to kill the first one so far.
    And as soon as you kill a 2nd one I will consider you a mythic raider, little kōhai.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    More to the point, the players who are 1/N in mythic are likely not going to base their satisfaction with the game on the presence of mythic raids.
    This. If they aren't even bothering to progress on other bosses they don't need a mythic difficulty to begin with.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by conkrete View Post
    Really? Which interview?
    Asmon one in the beginning he acknowledges that they underserved the quiet majority of players who don't push keys or mythic raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's inescapable that most people who have played WoW don't want challenging content. Completion stats show this, and GC himself has repeatedly said they don't like it.

    "the people who want challenging content, which historically has never been a huge percentage of our players."

    "there definitely was not as large an audience for challenging dungeons as we hoped."

    "We offer hardcore raiding b/c it's fun not because it's popular."

    "But there is not a great business model for a hardcore-only MMO with WoW production values."

    It will be interesting to see what GC's LoL MMO looks like. He has said this about it:

    "I think it's safe to say that we are not aiming for a niche product. Some games do great with 500,000 very loyal players who love the game. That's awesome but that's not what we're going for"

    If WoW declines below 500K active subs by the time that MMO comes out -- and it (at least Retail) may already be at that level! -- the WoW experience is going to even more seriously affect what they do. GC has enough self awareness to know he's personally hardcore; I don't know what direction that will push him in, though.

    "On reflection, it's possible I was always too hardcore for the vision of WoW."
    I'm going to reemphasize this post. Your post shows literally a former big name in the WoW Dev team openly saying and disproving that harder content is not what players want.

    In my view the only MMO Devs right now worth salt who seem to have a vision for the future of their games are coming from ESO, GW2, and FF14. SWTOR and WoW seem to be very very confused and lost when it comes to everything.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And as soon as you kill a 2nd one I will consider you a mythic raider, little kōhai.

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    This. If they aren't even bothering to progress on other bosses they don't need a mythic difficulty to begin with.
    That's why I said "only 3 bosses down" in my first post you quoted
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  17. #417
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Are you doing LFR with the same people who are doing Illidan ?
    Or are you doing LFR with a bunch of unknow people without coordination and running all over the place like headless chickens ?
    Because that could certainly explain the difference. I highly doubt that the average LFR clueless group wouldn't wipe on the Shard of Azeroth ten times in a row.
    People in LFR are surpisingly good. But I'm talking about the mechanics etc of the bosses. The bosses have FAR more health %-wise in LFR, and hurt more and have FAR more oneshot mechanics than anything in TBC.

  18. #418
    They did stop this, ages ago, when they added casual LFG functions and additional difficulties that were even easier than before, when they dumbed the talent system to oblivion and removed almost all forms of gear management and enhancement.

    But sure, "top .001%" is all that gets attention. Live in that delusional bubble.

  19. #419
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    They should just remove all combat add-ons, then we'll no longer have an arms race between WoW devs and Add-on devs. Raiders won't have ten add-ons telling them exactly where to stand and when anymore, or to prep for interrupt, adds, etcetera, and will have to actually learn fights and pay attention to markers and raid leader calls. Then it no longer has to be stupidly difficult to pose even the slightest challenge.
    Agreed. The influence of addons is far too great.
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  20. #420
    The major thing is that the very top and very bottom of the players are the ones that's currently in game still playing for the most part. The ones who still very much like the gameplay core and regulry return or stay, and the ones who really don't know any better.

    What kind of feedback do you think people like this would give? Also it makes for skewed metrics because while it appears a bigger % of players are maybe successful at true endgame, in fact it's just that the middle ground part went lost in time.

    If someone still plays the game and keeps raiding/running m+/pvp, while he may complain in forums he's still playing so from a marketing/revenue standpoint the game has done the right thing.

    Everything seems to be actually changing now because the hit in playerbase has been basically the biggest in the story of the game, plus all the external stuff. Suddendly people had options to play and wow wasn't the only game worth their time etc.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

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