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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathberry View Post
    i kinda dont understand the mentality: "everyone needs to achieve everything"

    Isnt it the main drive to get better at the game, to get this nice gear?
    The purpose of the game is to make money, not to make players better at the game.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Flatspriest View Post
    You must not have played the game during the original Classic era. You would have to sit and eat after every single mob. You would get attacked by anything and everything that was hostile towards you from a great distance. It was very much harder then. They have made this game so much easier over the years due to a majority of the player base being casuals rather than hard-core raiders.
    As someone who played the WoW beta.... vanilla wasnt all that much more difficult unless you were say, a Warrior. I played a Rogue way back when and it wasnt that hard. Especcially compared to litterally any MMO at the time. WoW's entire success is owed to being a casual experience made for casuals. Even back in vanilla raiders were a very tiny minority.
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  3. #523
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    I used to think this way too but to be fair there was a lot of guilds that beat one of the earlier raids on mythic setting, so more like "stop only tending to 30% of the player base."

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The purpose of the game is to make money, not to make players better at the game.
    Funny thing, one of the lead devs for D3 had this mentality from WoW that gear HAD to be this magical thing held up on a pedestol only for the best players and it couldnt come too rapidly or people would quit.

    Till he did the first item drop rate event. And it turns out ease of access to gear greatly INCREASED player retention. He experimented with it from that point; making new avenues for item gain and vastly increasing drop rates and it over all brought in new players, kept old ones, and in every way helped the health of the game.

    Raid quality gear in WoW used to be easy to get for casuals. And guess what? The game had VERY high player retention during that period. What brings players back and keeps them playing? End of expansions were gear becomes easier to access. What has always. ALWAYS. Murdered player interest and caused massive waves of people quiting? Making gear difficult to get.

    This is a lesson blizzard has learned many times in WoW as well as Diablo, yet they refuse to ever truly learn from it.
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  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by ugabelege View Post
    I used to think this way too but to be fair there was a lot of guilds that beat one of the earlier raids on mythic setting, so more like "stop only tending to 30% of the player base."
    Just 2225 guilds have clearned the first raid of SL on M, even at this point. If that were 30% of the player base the game would already be dead.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by ugabelege View Post
    I used to think this way too but to be fair there was a lot of guilds that beat one of the earlier raids on mythic setting, so more like "stop only tending to 30% of the player base."
    30% is such a ludicrouslly high number for raiders. Even normal and up raiding doesn't likely amount to even 10% of the playerbase. Some servers? Yes, because raiders will congregate to a handful of servers. Most servers? lolno.

    Raiding is something that a minority of players do in every MMO. Its why MMO that try to pander to that audience always end up failing. Its trying to grab an audience that amounts to very little.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    This is a lesson blizzard has learned many times in WoW as well as Diablo, yet they refuse to ever truly learn from it.
    If there's one thing a company needs to do is get rid of employees who make mistakes the company has previously made. They either can't or don't care to learn from experience.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathberry View Post
    i kinda dont understand the mentality: "everyone needs to achieve everything"

    Isnt it the main drive to get better at the game, to get this nice gear?

    Why cant i accept that i will never get the best gear in the game, if i dont kill the hardest bosses for it?

    even in the times i didnt hardcore raid, i was never like: "well i dont want to do something for it, but give me the best gear!".

    Why does everyone think that he needs to beat the whole game on all difficulties?
    back in my main wow days in bc and classic, most people couldnt even enter the highest dungeons, and will never even see the endgame content.
    now you have the "easy" raids so you at least can see all the content and all the bosses.
    and then you still whine that you cant kill everything on mythic.. i dont get it
    I'd say the purpose of the game (for the devs) is to make money, and (for the players) to entertain.

    There's a finite ceiling to how much "better" people can get at a game and it differs for everyone. If the game's "main drive" was to "get better at the game" it would inevitably push people out as more and more players hit their individual ceilings.

    I was well past being a teenager when WoW came out so I'm considerably older now. My physical and mental reactions are notably slower than they were 20 years ago plus the inevitable decline of health that aging brings.

    Difficulty increases over the years pushed me out of raiding. M+ difficulty scaling & player expectations (sorry but +15 is my limit and its not "easy" for me like many like to say it should be) pushed me out of doing dungeons as an endgame (what purpose do heroic dungeons even serve anymore?). Rated pvp pushed me out of doing anything worthwhile with pvp. No jumping into battlegrounds for some fun and coming away with something useful anymore. Can't even unlock an old artifact tint because it requires rated wins.

    I'm not looking for the "best gear in the game" for doing nothing. I do believe the gap between those that do the hardest content and those that only do the easiest content should be significantly smaller than it is, and difficult content bragging rights should come from cosmetics (unique skins, titles, mounts, etc).

    It's fine for skilled players to have some way to show off their achievements. It's not fine (imo) for the player power gap between the best and the worst to be massive because at the end of the day we're all playing the same game and to some degree are playing together, and if my experience is made worse because someone else decides my gear isn't good enough to do X thing, well that kinda fucking sucks for me now doesn't it? And how does that experience make me wanna keep playing and thus paying? Answer: It doesn't.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2022-05-10 at 11:57 AM.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    30% is such a ludicrouslly high number for raiders. Even normal and up raiding doesn't likely amount to even 10% of the playerbase. Some servers? Yes, because raiders will congregate to a handful of servers. Most servers? lolno.

    Raiding is something that a minority of players do in every MMO. Its why MMO that try to pander to that audience always end up failing. Its trying to grab an audience that amounts to very little.
    To be fair most of wow is now located on about half a dozen servers.

    I would also argue raiders are the most stable playerbase that needs the least amount of content aimed at them.

    Trying to pretend the capstone of over a decade of content isn't the capstone seems folly.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    It's fine for skilled players to have some way to show off their achievements. It's not fine (imo) for the player power gap between the best and the worst to be massive because at the end of the day we're all playing the same game and to some degree are playing together, and if my experience is made worse because someone else decides my gear isn't good enough to do X thing, well that kinda fucking sucks for me now doesn't it? And how does that experience make me wanna keep playing and thus paying? Answer: It doesn't.
    This is the problem with most posts on here, you start off about something that could be a legit discussion or complain, but then you show you are clueless and its where it breaks down.

    In 3 weeks my main was getting 252 handed to him by the stupid pocopoc mechanic that i didnt even farm for, it just passively came from doing the 2-3 dailies and world quests and weekly world boss, so averagely 15mins/day.

    So you are telling me, you cant do a few quests over the course of 2 months which means you werent doing them daily, to get 252 spammed to you that skips all of LFR, and M+ and even up to M+7 in drops i think?

    Following that, if people were doing even a +8 they would be handed 262 gear by the buckets, and simply doing the valor farm, they would have even more items faster, so even with bad luck, with doing a +8 you would have like 10, 262 items.

    Plus the 2 x291 ilvl items, you would averagely be at 260-265 ilvl without even trying, to convert to tier sets.

    There is no gear gap, there is refusal to engage in what is basic content for anyone that plays for more than a year, unless you think because you are wearing 265 and the "big evil raiders" are wearing 275, thats the problem with performance.

    LFR is the best example of what i am talking about its full of 260 ilvl players, playing the class at 5% of their capabilities, somehow doing 3k DPS which isnt even possible, with 2 legendaries and 4 tiers, and then they log on mmo-champion to complain about the EVIL ELITIST RAIDERS.

    Not attacking you personally, but there is so much bullshit spewed on here that dont even reflect reality by 0.1%
    Last edited by potis; 2022-05-10 at 12:12 PM.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    To be fair most of wow is now located on about half a dozen servers.

    I would also argue raiders are the most stable playerbase that needs the least amount of content aimed at them.

    Trying to pretend the capstone of over a decade of content isn't the capstone seems folly.
    I wouldnt call it a capstone. The most popular content of WoW has never been raiding, ever. Not even the most memorable. The game has had its biggest peaks when more things other than raiding are focused. And has had its biggest lows when raiding is focused. Nor are raiders any more stable than anyone else. Hell that stability is meaningless when its made up of such a small batch.
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  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This is the problem with most posts on here, you start off about something that could be legit, but then you show you are clueless and its where it breaks down.

    In 3 weeks my main was getting 252 handed to him by the stupid pocopoc mechanic that i didnt even farm for, it just passively came from doing the 2-3 dailies and world quests and weekly world boss, so averagely 15mins/day.

    So you are telling me, you cant do a few quests over the course of 2 months to get 252 spammed to you that skips all of LFR, and M+ and even up to M+7 in drops i think?
    No, I'm telling you that I'm pretty sure I'm on record, in this thread, not one page past, as saying that I like how ZM handled gearing and that I hope to see the concept carried forward. Korthia was a soul crushing slog that I barely finished on my main and hardly touched on my alts because why the fuck would I want subject myself to that a second time.

    Zerith Mortis was a breath of fresh air that I enjoyed, take alts to, and still do some of on my main just for cypher roulette boxes.

    Following that, if people were doing even a +8 they would be handed 262 gear by the buckets, and simply doing the valor farm, they would have even more items faster, so even with bad luck, with doing a +8 you would have like 10, 262 items.
    With few exceptions, if I can't queue, I don't do. Mythic+ was enjoyable for me in Legion but became significantly less so with changes made in BfA that stayed in SL. While I do the odd mythic+ with friends now and then, it's not an experience I actively want to engage in. If it ain't fun for me I ain't gonna do it with any regularity.

    Plus the 2 x291 ilvl items, you would averagely be at 260-265 ilvl without even trying, to convert to tier sets.
    I've got my two 291's on my main. Factoring in mythic+ to any degree is a non-starter. As I said before, with few exceptions, if I can't queue, I don't do. It's not fun for me.

    There is no gear gap, there is refusal to engage in what is basic content for anyone that plays for more than a year, unless you think because you are wearing 265 and the "big evil raiders" are wearing 275, thats the problem with performance.
    What you consider "basic content" I consider "unfun". The gap isn't 265 vs 275, it's more like 246-259 (generally ZM/normal level) vs 278-285(mythic).

    Fully kitted in ZM only gear, you've got 2 armor slots at 259 thanks to world boss (assuming you get drops), 246 tier in 2-4 armor slots depending on your armor type (world boss favors plate and cloth for 2 tier slots, leather gets 1, mail gets none), two 236 trinkets (242 if you get a lucky warforge proc which does happen) from world quests or less likely 252 trinket(s) from the timewalking weekly quest box, 252's everywhere else where possible.

    Then there's your weapon, the slot with the most significant impact on your performance, which can be 246 from certain ZM enocunters, but possibly 236 if boss drop RNG has been unkind or you just dont see those boss events pop during your play time, or rarely 252 if you got super lucky with the timewalking weekly quest box. I'm not gonna do the math but I'm pretty sure it doesn't average out to 265. If I were to make a guess, I'd say your best average is probably around 255ish if you do nothing but ZM, have two 291 legendaries, two 259 pieces of tier, two 246 pieces of tier, two 236 trinkets, a 246 weapon, and 252 cypher equipment in any remaining slots. In general that makes the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom nigh on 25-30 ilvls.

    But to be clear, I mostly think ZM gearing is good. I enjoy ZM and am satisfied with it for the most part.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2022-05-10 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I wouldnt call it a capstone. The most popular content of WoW has never been raiding, ever. Not even the most memorable. The game has had its biggest peaks when more things other than raiding are focused. And has had its biggest lows when raiding is focused. Nor are raiders any more stable than anyone else. Hell that stability is meaningless when its made up of such a small batch.
    I would love to hear about all the exciting non-raid content that WotLK had. Unless you mean to imply that the Argent Tournament was the sole reason 12 million people were subscribed to the game.

  14. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    As someone who is running around in way above "average" gear in every expansion I've played so far. I really don't understand why daily grinders are denied Mythic quality gear. I think everything should eventually lead to the best gear possible.
    First, why do daily grinders need Mythic raid level gear? There's a point of diminishing returns that seems trivia to get considering the effort required.

    What is the difference if a world quest mob takes 3 GCDs to kill versus 2 GCDs?

    Second, rewards are more meaningful if it takes more effort to obtain. Shortcutting this process makes it feel kinda bad for other game progression systems. This is very much the case for Season 3 in SL with the creation catalyst with M+ rewards from the GV. You can literally skip the Heroic raid gearing progress by doing enough +15 each week and converting non-tier pieces to tier pieces without ever having to step into heroic Sepulcher. It makes heroic sepulcher unrewarding when some players basically shortcut around it.


    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I never understood this "I'm forced to raid LFR" mentality when raid sets came out for example.
    The "forced to raid LFR" is due to the power of the tier sets. The 2pc/4pc bonus (in some cases) represents a bigger throughput change than the ilv difference.

    In fact, the only time where this wasn't the case was back in Hellfire Citadel back in WoD. LFR has a "faux" tier set that did not have the same tier bonuses as Normal+. So raiders did not feel compelled to do LFR because that specific tier didn't drop in LFR.

    This has both pros and cons. For instance, it alleviated some toxicity as the folks doing LFR were effectively separated from normal+ raiders which meant tuning for LFR could be easier. But the trade off was a smaller amount of players queuing up for LFR which lead to longer queue times (up to an hour for DPS).
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  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I wouldnt call it a capstone. The most popular content of WoW has never been raiding, ever. Not even the most memorable. The game has had its biggest peaks when more things other than raiding are focused. And has had its biggest lows when raiding is focused. Nor are raiders any more stable than anyone else. Hell that stability is meaningless when its made up of such a small batch.
    I don't really agree with you to be blunt. WoW was biggest when it was the biggest social media platform on the internet. Even then most players funneled into instanced content once they hit level cap. Arguably leveling was the most popular content though I doubt you could replicate its success now a days it was a product of it's time.

    I think a big problem is how addicted the current playerbase is to instant gratification. If you want back into wows past and told players that daily quests would shower them in multiple normal raid gear as well as tier. Then tried to explain how the community thought that was a " worthless " reward.

    Well I think you would be extremely hard pressed to find anyone willing to believe you.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I wouldnt call it a capstone. The most popular content of WoW has never been raiding, ever. Not even the most memorable. The game has had its biggest peaks when more things other than raiding are focused. And has had its biggest lows when raiding is focused. Nor are raiders any more stable than anyone else. Hell that stability is meaningless when its made up of such a small batch.
    Wow always was raiding centric. ALWAYS. Until Mythic+ you did not even have another endgame besides PVP and raiding.
    You could even argue that wow only lost players the moment they opened everything up and made it easier to enter making players entitled to "just get it because i am playing 80 hours a week gathering herbs"

    There are MMOs for everybody and it annoys me really hard when people want to make wow into something it NEVER was. There are more than enough places in wow you can play whatever you want.
    You can raid. You only do dungeons on whatever level you like. You can only to open world quests. You can only play the AH. Endgmae content is still Raiding and PvP with mythic+ in recent years. But there are more than enough ways to play wow and if you do not like grouped instanced content... well fuck... maybe play another MMO hwre this is not the focus since the game released?

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    In my opinion. there should be a currency you get for each and everything you do. If you have to, just cap it. But that currency should eventually lead to mythic gear.
    A daily gets you 30 points, a raid boss 500 (or something like that).
    That's basically horizontal progression 101. GW2 goes way more extreme by simply giving you the gear itself at max level from whatever you're doing (even crafting) but everything has a sensible grind attached since once you're done, it's basically endgame xmogs.

    I don't know if it's the right solution for WoW but honestly we have already a lot of the groundwork set for something like that. M+ has valor and that doesn't scale with difficulty - it's obviously slow to a point you cannot simply deck yourself by just running 2s and upgrading with valor. Raids seem to be going towards a more deterministic route aswell.

    We have already scaling world quests. They can just increase the scaling cap up to mythic ilvl, and just set a threshold to the upgrades (weekly?) so one cannot just spam WQs until his ilvl is at cap. It's not an issue to me if someone 2 months and a half after the raid released has the chance to loot mythic ilvl gear from WQs, since i can get mythic tier set by running a 15 not in time and craft my tier as for free as him without stepping a foot into mythic.

    I mean that it's not really important the end goal of the route to reach it is interesting enough. I am sure plenty of people will say "if you don't raid, why do you deserve raid gear" which is somewhat true but my question is if you can clear Mythic after 1 month, does it really matter to you if someone else after another month get gear as powerful as yours? You have already done the content, competition-wise you have reached the end, maybe you're not in BiS but at this point i don't think many will even care.

    If there's anything the game has taught me, is that most players don't really care about the game. They care about the rewards. Everyone does M+ now because it's the path of least resistance to get those reward. If raid was better, everyone would raid. The game is already for the most party a lobby based, solo queue thing and nothing can change that. It may be worse for the community but it's actually better for the playerbase as a whole because you can play whenever you like and have sensible and reliable progress.

    Making gear progression broader and more streamlined is a good thing, despite how much many people complain about (and then are happy when they can easily craft their mythic ilvl tier set, cause i've yet to find anyone complaining about it).
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  18. #538
    Hot take but at this point just break most combat related addons. The game has become unnecessarily complex at mythic levels simply because it is now expected that you can track one billion different things through addons that tell you exactly what to do so the devs have to invent other ways for you to wipe. This, on top of having a screen absolutely cluttered with weak auras and UI addon elements is just not fun and ruins a lot of the visual clarity.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    First, why do daily grinders need Mythic raid level gear? There's a point of diminishing returns that seems trivia to get considering the effort required.
    This has always been my pet peeve. If you don't raid, why do you need raid gear? No, high mythic keys are not the same as mythic raiding. Its the same reason 10 mans cant be as difficult as 20 man mythic. Ive always been of the mindset that you should get the gear for the content you are doing.

    People just playing for transmog / world quests dont need mythic gear. Like wise, PvPers who only PvP dont need mythic gear. Mythic raiders who never PvP dont need PvP gear, etc.

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Fully kitted in ZM only gear, you've got 2 armor slots at 259 thanks to world boss (assuming you get drops), 246 tier in 2-4 armor slots depending on your armor type (world boss favors plate and cloth for 2 tier slots, leather gets 1, mail gets none), two 236 trinkets (242 if you get a lucky warforge proc which does happen) from world quests or less likely 252 trinket(s) from the timewalking weekly quest box, 252's everywhere else where possible.
    Odd I'm pretty sure that you can get 252 tier items via maxing out the cypher research and doing the creation catalyst thing. But yea, in general the ilv difference between ZM only (with double legendaries) should be around 255 vs ~280 for a CE Mythic raider.

    I would wager most players that raid in the heroic/mythic space would be around 270~280.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    This, on top of having a screen absolutely cluttered with weak auras and UI addon elements is just not fun and ruins a lot of the visual clarity.
    Time to invest in ultra wide 4k+ monitors
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