STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[VMSmith]

Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

Congratulations on a superb example of Poe's Law!

[Royru]

We have mythic because people asked for it, and now you want it back to being "easy". I don't believe for one minute that you'd have the stamina to chain wipe weeks on end based on what you want for the game.

Yeah and I believe it should go back to being easier because I think it’s best for the game and it’s what makes it the funnest. That’s how it was when the game was at its height of popularity.

And please dude lol

I don't believe for one minute that you'd have the stamina to chain wipe weeks on end based on what you want for the game.

This is a video game. ‘Stamina’ isn’t exactly an issue here. It’s whether or not you find that experience enjoyable anymore. When I had all the time in the world before careers, getting married, and having kids, I would go through this no problem.

The issue I believe is that people just simply do not want to do this because it isn’t enjoyable to even GET to that point to spam deaths non stop. Let’s not act like this is a ‘hard’ thing to do. Anyone and everyone can waste their time and life investing all these resources into a game, most just don’t either have the time nor enjoyment to spend that much time in a video game.

And honestly every time wow has a new raid open up it seems like I’m def not alone in thinking this. The amount of people even attempting these drops and drops and drops every single major patch. It seems that it isn’t that enjoyable anymore.

So either having an easier raid experience, or having casual content reward you with gear that allows you to just step into these mythics raids easier, I believe is the answer.

[Azharok]

Yeah and I believe it should go back to being easier because I think it’s best for the game and it’s what makes it the funnest. That’s how it was when the game was at its height of popularity.

And please dude lol



This is a video game. ‘Stamina’ isn’t exactly an issue here. It’s whether or not you find that experience enjoyable anymore. When I had all the time in the world before careers, getting married, and having kids, I would go through this no problem.

The issue I believe is that people just simply do not want to do this because it isn’t enjoyable to even GET to that point to spam deaths non stop. Let’s not act like this is a ‘hard’ thing to do. Anyone and everyone can waste their time and life investing all these resources into a game, most just don’t either have the time nor enjoyment to spend that much time in a video game.

And honestly every time wow has a new raid open up it seems like I’m def not alone in thinking this. The amount of people even attempting these drops and drops and drops every single major patch. It seems that it isn’t that enjoyable anymore.

So either having an easier raid experience, or having casual content reward you with gear that allows you to just step into these mythics raids easier, I believe is the answer.

But then we could go back to the argument that heroic gear and M+15s is MORE than enough gear to do 99% of content. Mythic raiding is just the extra fluff for the sweaty neckbeard who no-life this game.

I'm happy that the neckbeards have something to do, I don't participate in Mythic raiding, i'm contempt with Heroic. And as far as enjoying all the content, there's still normal raid mode. It's just the same thing as heroic and mythic with less mechanics, and if that's too much of a challenge still, there's LFR.

edit : if Normal mode was the highest difficulty level, people would just play M+ for the infinite challenge. Going back to dumbing down stuff isn't helping anyone in my opinion.

[Lurker1]

Casuals play low skilled content. 3 hours or 40 hours a week. If its low skilled then it's casual.

that is nonsense can also mean less time but does harder content maybe not mythic but heroic ext in raids.

[Royru]

But then we could go back to the argument that heroic gear and M+15s is MORE than enough gear to do 99% of content. Mythic raiding is just the extra fluff for the sweaty neckbeard who no-life this game.

Both of which generally involve you grouping up with players and it’s still a process to even enter these areas. I’ll repeat one of my suggestions.

Basically I believe this world should exist where someone who has no guild, who plays regularly but not spending every day on the game, should be able to login at any time of the week and either q up or find a random pug for the current raid and should be ABLE to compete in the highest difficulty if they choose to.

I believe destiny 2’s system for gearing is almost perfect. The way you gather upgrades respects your time like no other game does.

I’ll ask you a legit question. Let’s say today is the first day the first mythic raid in shadowlands opens up. Let’s say I just resubbed to the game and I’m level 50. If I play let’s say a couple hours a week, how far do you realistically believe I will get being a solo player?

[Mardux]

And the HOF closes at 100 right? And the alliance is sitting at only 9 guilds completing it and horde only just now closed after over 2 months of being open.

No one sees an issue with that?

Not an issue that needs micromanaging by blizzard, no. You can pug mythic now, you just can't do it cross-battlegroup. There is nothing stopping 20 alliance dudes on the same battlegroup from forming a group to push mythic sep other than themselves.

And no, there are at least 11 *guilds* on alliance that have CE (and there were at least 11 when you falsely claimed there were only 9). Why you would lie about something so easily fact-checked is beyond me.

[Azharok]

Both of which generally involve you grouping up with players and it’s still a process to even enter these areas. I’ll repeat one of my suggestions.



I believe destiny 2’s system for gearing is almost perfect. The way you gather upgrades respects your time like no other game does.

I’ll ask you a legit question. Let’s say today is the first day the first mythic raid in shadowlands opens up. Let’s say I just resubbed to the game and I’m level 50. If I play let’s say a couple hours a week, how far do you realistically believe I will get being a solo player?

You said pugging, so if you're fine with pugging you're fine with normal/heroic/mythic and m+ pugging.

As a solo player starting now, you'd have to run the cov campaign, chains of domination campaign (might be skippable tbh) and the ZM one. Then you'd probably run LFRs and ZM side by side for tier. Supplemented by a few low M+ (with uncapped valour as of today). You'd probably need a month to be up to speed. But that's only because you're "late" into the expansion.

Counter question, how long would it take me in FF14 to run a Savage raid starting now ? I'd still argue the time spent from lvl 1 to 275ilvl is shorter in WoW than it is in FF14. And that game gets all kinds of praise from the casual crowd.

[Royru]

Not an issue that needs micromanaging by blizzard, no. You can pug mythic now, you just can't do it cross-battlegroup. There is nothing stopping 20 alliance dudes on the same battlegroup from forming a group to push mythic sep other than themselves.

And no, there are at least 11 *guilds* on alliance that have CE (and there were at least 11 when you falsely claimed there were only 9). Why you would lie about something so easily fact-checked is beyond me.

I wasn’t lying I was just going off of this post from 19hours ago

https://www.wowhead.com/news/horde-h...of-this-327026

I’m so so very sorry that I didn’t fact check the wowhead post in order to catch those extra 2 guilds that finished. Those two guilds completely changed the discourse of the point I was making.

- - - Updated - - -

You said pugging, so if you're fine with pugging you're fine with normal/heroic/mythic and m+ pugging.

As a solo player starting now, you'd have to run the cov campaign, chains of domination campaign (might be skippable tbh) and the ZM one. Then you'd probably run LFRs and ZM side by side for tier. Supplemented by a few low M+ (with uncapped valour as of today). You'd probably need a month to be up to speed. But that's only because you're "late" into the expansion.

Counter question, how long would it take me in FF14 to run a Savage raid starting now ? I'd still argue the time spent from lvl 1 to 275ilvl is shorter in WoW than it is in FF14. And that game gets all kinds of praise from the casual crowd.

I didn’t say today, because blizzard opened up a ton of their gearing processes because we are in the testing phase of the expansion. Anything that happens right now doesn’t reflect normal expansion experiences. I said at the beginning of the first mythic raid opening up.

Now you just listed off a laundry list of things for me to do just to reach heroic raiding content and you didn’t actually answer my question. You said it would take a month. It would take me a month of playing a couple hours a week? So let’s say I play 3-4 hours a week. You’re saying from level 50 at the time mythic castle nath opened up let’s say, it would have taken me at most 16 hours of gameplay to hit heroic/mythic raiding?

Huge doubt.

Counter question, how long would it take me in FF14 to run a Savage raid starting now ? I'd still argue the time spent from lvl 1 to 275ilvl is shorter in WoW than it is in FF14. And that game gets all kinds of praise from the casual crowd.

I have never played that game so I wouldn’t even know how to answer that. I mentioned destiny 2. I can answer that question very easily for you if you would like.

[Alroxas]

Why? Like what is the real reason to gate keep end level gear to just the hardcore players? What benefits do we get by doing this?

Value of said items? There's a prestige in obtaining hard to get items while the content is relevant and so by making that acquisition easier you're devaluing those items.

And it doesn't have to be limited to just "gear", why does Blizzard suddenly change the drop rate for the Mythic raid mount from 1 guaranteed per run down to a 2% (or less) drop rate once Cross Faction Raiding opens up? Why are mounts/titles shifted to unobtainable once a season ends?

Additionally, it's not like those who are hunting transmog are harmed... you can easily now go back to Legion and run Mythic Legion Raids for those "gear" for the appearances if you so choose to.

Yes, I get that some people will point to "artificial scarcity" being a stupid thing to put into the game, but at the same time it does provide a value to those players who are able to earn those things when they were around.

- - - Updated - - -

Not an issue that needs micromanaging by blizzard, no. You can pug mythic now, you just can't do it cross-battlegroup. There is nothing stopping 20 alliance dudes on the same battlegroup from forming a group to push mythic sep other than themselves.

I don't believe Battlegroups are used anymore. Ever since all servers are able to be PvP (a la War Mode), there's no need for battlegroups.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the retail playerbase is too fragmented. 4 raid modes is too much. Reduce them to 2 modes, easy and hard.

Also, let's split up gear for M+/pvp/raids again. Gear for these categories can share base stats, but have special bonuses that are only good for the content they came from.

In this case, I think the fragmentation is a good thing. This allows more players to play at their level rather than be shore horned into a specific difficulty.

[Royru]

Value of said items? There's a prestige in obtaining hard to get items while the content is relevant and so by making that acquisition easier you're devaluing those items.

And it doesn't have to be limited to just "gear", why does Blizzard suddenly change the drop rate for the Mythic raid mount from 1 guaranteed per run down to a 2% (or less) drop rate once Cross Faction Raiding opens up? Why are mounts/titles shifted to unobtainable once a season ends?

Additionally, it's not like those who are hunting transmog are harmed... you can easily now go back to Legion and run Mythic Legion Raids for those "gear" for the appearances if you so choose to.

Yes, I get that some people will point to "artificial scarcity" being a stupid thing to put into the game, but at the same time it does provide a value to those players who are able to earn those things when they were around.

Okay and some games just limit cosmetics and mounts and titles etc for the prestige of those players, instead of gear that effects gameplay.

So what’s the reason to gatekeep the gear as well? The gear is all relative. Obtaining the best gear for mythic raiding feels the exact same as having normal raid gear in the normal raid. Someone having similar stats to you, in a raid your not even in, doesn’t effect you at all.

I will agree with prestige tho, there should be that. But the only thing people ACTUALLY care about with prestige is cosmetics, so why not just limit it to that?

And we know that’s the only thing they care about because when a new expansion hits, no one complains about losing their mythic gear stats. It’s expected that the gear is going to be worthless. But the cosmetics that carry over (glad mounts/titles/achievements) is what actually matters.

[Azharok]

I wasn’t lying I was just going off of this post from 19hours ago

https://www.wowhead.com/news/horde-h...of-this-327026

I’m so so very sorry that I didn’t fact check the wowhead post in order to catch those extra 2 guilds that finished. Those two guilds completely changed the discourse of the point I was making.

- - - Updated - - -




I didn’t say today, because blizzard opened up a ton of their gearing processes because we are in the testing phase of the expansion. Anything that happens right now doesn’t reflect normal expansion experiences. I said at the beginning of the first mythic raid opening up.

Now you just listed off a laundry list of things for me to do just to reach heroic raiding content and you didn’t actually answer my question. You said it would take a month. It would take me a month of playing a couple hours a week? So let’s say I play 3-4 hours a week. You’re saying from level 50 at the time mythic castle nath opened up let’s say, it would have taken me at most 16 hours of gameplay to hit heroic/mythic raiding?

Huge doubt.



I have never played that game so I wouldn’t even know how to answer that. I mentioned destiny 2. I can answer that question very easily for you if you would like.

You said couple of hours, then specify said time and I'm the one being disingenuous ? But if we're only looking at heroic/mythic CN from the start of SL.. You could be max lvl in under 10 hours. And then it would probably another 10 to gear up for heroic, about 2 weeks to clear Heroic CN. So idk, 40-60 hours of actual playtime to clear HC. So more like 4 months for you. But hey at least you've got something to do for 4 months. As opposed to the tryhards who probably faceroll their way to mythic, spend like 2-3 weeks clearing it and then unsub for 6 months till the next raid opens.

For reference, Mythic Denathrius took between 20 hours and 40 hours of progress to kill. If we look at the longest time a guild might spend on Mythic CN it was around 120 hours of progress. I don't see how playing 4 hours a week you'd hope of clearing Mythic mode.

[Alroxas]

So what’s the reason to gatekeep the gear as well? The gear is all relative. Obtaining the best gear for mythic raiding feels the exact same as having normal raid gear in the normal raid. Someone having similar stats to you, in a raid your not even in, doesn’t effect you at all.

Except that mythic gear confers just a wee bit more player power than normal gear... and that player power affects how easy the content becomes. Kind of a soft nerf to a raid tuned at X difficulty where as player progression continues, they eventually overpower some of the skill deficiencies they have.

But the only thing people ACTUALLY care about with prestige is cosmetics, so why not just limit it to that?

In a perfect world, it could be just that. But the reality is that players do also care a bit about player power so cosmetic ONLY just isn't enough to motivate players.

And we know that’s the only thing they care about because when a new expansion hits, no one complains about losing their mythic gear stats. It’s expected that the gear is going to be worthless. But the cosmetics that carry over (glad mounts/titles/achievements) is what actually matters.

Well part of mythic gear becoming "worthless" is because there's leveling involved. Leveling allows for a soft reset of player power (talk about borrowed power right?).

And if folks are so nonchalant about losing mythic gear stats (aka purple gear!) then why so much hate against borrowed power systems like Heart of Azeroth or Covenants? Seems a bit contradictory?

[Royru]

You said couple of hours, then specify said time and I'm the one being disingenuous ? But if we're only looking at heroic/mythic CN from the start of SL.. You could be max lvl in under 10 hours. And then it would probably another 10 to gear up for heroic, about 2 weeks to clear Heroic CN. So idk, 40-60 hours of actual playtime to clear HC. So more like 4 months for you. But hey at least you've got something to do for 4 months. As opposed to the tryhards who probably faceroll their way to mythic, spend like 2-3 weeks clearing it and then unsub for 6 months till the next raid opens.

I literally said a couple hours a week that’s a pretty specific amount of time is it not? I even went above what a couple of hours means to most people and gave you 4.

So you say 10 hours to hit end level and 10 hours to hit heroic level of raiding (which honestly I’m not going to argue that but I feel like you’re being VERY generous with how quick this is achieved).

But even with amount of time spent which seems quick, you can finally ENTER heroic raiding after 4 months. Not to mention the process of even getting INTO these raids. You see where a casual would probably just say “yeah that’s too much forget about it”.

Also you didn’t even really include the systems that WoW has built in for you to farm every day to also progress your character.

So maybe you can understand now, just saying “you can do 10 man heroic” seems a bit silly to what I was asking for no? Considering the game doesn’t respect your time at ALL and it’s a massive process to even get to that point.

[Azharok]

I literally said a couple hours a week that’s a pretty specific amount of time is it not? I even went above what a couple of hours means to most people and gave you 4.

So you say 10 hours to hit end level and 10 hours to hit heroic level of raiding (which honestly I’m not going to argue that but I feel like you’re being VERY generous with how quick this is achieved).

But even with amount of time spent which seems quick, you can finally ENTER heroic raiding after 4 months. Not to mention the process of even getting INTO these raids. You see where a casual would probably just say “yeah that’s too much forget about it”.

Also you didn’t even really include the systems that WoW has built in for you to farm every day to also progress your character.

So maybe you can understand now, just saying “you can do 10 man heroic” seems a bit silly to what I was asking for no? Considering the game doesn’t respect your time at ALL and it’s a massive process to even get to that point.

A couple of hours for me is 2 hours a day, and possibly 4-6 per day on the weekend. So yes it's kinda of important to specify what you mean by "couple". What do you want exactly as a casual ? You want to enter heroic raids from day one, roll your face on the keyboard, do 5-10 pulls in mythic mode, clear that ? And then what ? Complain that there is nothing to do in an MMO ? It has a subscription, they kinda need to keep people playing to keep the lights on and the game running. This isn't D2 which is Buy once, and then free to play. I've played D2 at the very beginning, there is nothing to do in that game imo. Shoot stuff, get marginally better guns, shoot more stuff, repeat.

[MrHappy]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in?

I have no issues joining pugs especially normal. I got my 4pc with running 3 pugs. Unless you consider not standing in shit you are not supposed to hard in which case that's what LFR is for.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember the most fun I had in dungeons was in Cata pre-nerfs. Also, any decently organized group can clear Normal Raid. With exception of Anduin, the rest of the fights are not a DPS check and is just mechanics. You may not like that bosses have 5-6 mechanics instead of 2 but the current raid tier has been fun for me.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

Lack of Jailer kills is more driven by the incentive to kill it. It doesn't drop tier, has mediocre trinkets for most classes and the only people that want to kill it are plate wearers for the 2h weapon. As a warlock player once I have AOTC I see no reason to go back for it. Even the OH is not worth it for me. Jailer fight is not complicated Rygelon is a bigger challenge imo from the last 3.

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

The game has 4 difficulties. 1 for everyone 1 for pugs to clear 1 for decently organized guilds and 1 for those that like a challenge.

either improve your abilities or stick to normal/LRF

[Royru]

Except that mythic gear confers just a wee bit more player power than normal gear... and that player power affects how easy the content becomes. Kind of a soft nerf to a raid tuned at X difficulty where as player progression continues, they eventually overpower some of the skill deficiencies they have.

Maybe I wasn’t very clear I guess. I was just saying mythic gear to a mythic raid is similar to normal gear in a normal raid.

I was just saying this to sort of point out, there isn’t anything ‘special’ about the stats you have. There’s nothing “prestigious” about it. It’s just stats that allows you to even step foot into a higher difficulty. Opening up this gear to casuals doesn’t effect the mythic raider at all.

In a perfect world, it could be just that. But the reality is that players do also care a bit about player power so cosmetic ONLY just isn't enough to motivate players.

Except I don’t believe that at all. Casual games that have way more players and that have held their player counts way better than wow does, have these type of rewards and people seem to still love gathering these things.

Look at pvp. There have been a ton of seasons (and they are doing it again right now for the new expansion) where the ONLY reward for pvp, is cosmetics. That’s it. Pvp will no longer be giving you better gear for pvp just because you’re a hardcore pvper. The only reason to push high rating is for mounts/titles/etc. That’s it.

Well part of mythic gear becoming "worthless" is because there's leveling involved. Leveling allows for a soft reset of player power (talk about borrowed power right?).

Yea but that’s the point. Everyone is fine with it, proving that when you take that form of ‘prestige’, as you call it, away people are not only fine with it but they expect it. Imagine for a second if after every expansion they nuked all your achievements and cosmetic rewards for completing those mythic raids (or whatever you did).

People would lose it, because THATS really what they care about.

And if folks are so nonchalant about losing mythic gear stats (aka purple gear!) then why so much hate against borrowed power systems like Heart of Azeroth or Covenants? Seems a bit contradictory?

Because you have nothing to show for it after the borrowed power system is gone. Once season 8 ended and I ‘lost’ my wrathful gladiator set, I was fine because the only thing I really cared about was my glad mount and title.

When I lost my artifact weapon what did I have? Nothing. I had the transmogs but those weren’t rewarded to me for farming all those resources it was for other achievements.

When covenants went away or the heart of Azeroth what did you have to show for it?

But I do see your point to an extent. I think wow could change how they approach gear as a whole too because it is borrowed power for sure.

[Azharok]

When covenants went away or the heart of Azeroth what did you have to show for it?

you'll have titles mogs and mounts when covenants go away.

[Royru]

A couple of hours for me is 2 hours a day, and possibly 4-6 per day on the weekend. So yes it's kinda of important to specify what you mean by "couple". What do you want exactly as a casual ? You want to enter heroic raids from day one, roll your face on the keyboard, do 5-10 pulls in mythic mode, clear that ? And then what ? Complain that there is nothing to do in an MMO ? It has a subscription, they kinda need to keep people playing to keep the lights on and the game running. This isn't D2 which is Buy once, and then free to play. I've played D2 at the very beginning, there is nothing to do in that game imo. Shoot stuff, get marginally better guns, shoot more stuff, repeat.

I specifically said a couple of hours a week, not day, you can go back and read what I wrote.

I want the process to respect your time. I want their to be a hard line where the farming stops. I want the game to reward you and allow you to enter this content without wasting literally days of your time in order to even step foot into them. It’s extremely clear that a ton of people feel this way which is why we see wow numbers plummet drastically every single patch.

Destiny 2s system is great. You as a casual player who plays a couple of hours a week can easily reach the highest tier content within weeks. And then if I wish to go into that higher tier content as a casual player I can. Which keeps me playing the game. Because that’s what casuals want to do. Is just play the game they want. But if the barrier is days worth of farming to even step foot in it then guess how much ‘gametime’ you get from them? 0

[Azharok]

I specifically said a couple of hours a week, not day, you can go back and read what I wrote.

I want the process to respect your time. I want their to be a hard line where the farming stops. I want the game to reward you and allow you to enter this content without wasting literally days of your time in order to even step foot into them. It’s extremely clear that a ton of people feel this way which is why we see wow numbers plummet drastically every single patch.

Destiny 2s system is great. You as a casual player who plays a couple of hours a week can easily reach the highest tier content within weeks. And then if I wish to go into that higher tier content as a casual player I can. Which keeps me playing the game. Because that’s what casuals want to do. Is just play the game they want. But if the barrier is days worth of farming to even step foot in it then guess how much ‘gametime’ you get from them? 0

I don't care what you meant when you said "a couple hours a week", it's vague. You then said 4 hours a week, fine. I gave you my answer to that question. Korthia grind was a waste of time, S1 was fine in that regards, S3 is fine in that regards. The destiny 2 crowd might be full of casuals but again, it's buy ONCE, play forever. Whereas Blizz needs MAU to keep WoW running. Blizz can lose as many subs as it wants as long as people are buying tokens to offset the loss it doesn't matter.

You haven't answered my question though.

[Relapses]

Not an issue that needs micromanaging by blizzard, no. You can pug mythic now, you just can't do it cross-battlegroup. There is nothing stopping 20 alliance dudes on the same battlegroup from forming a group to push mythic sep other than themselves.

I don't think Mythic goes cross-realm til the HoF for both sides closes. Meaning you have to be on the same server to clear the raid.