STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Sariengrey]

Everyone thinks how they see the game is the right way. How they feel about the game is correct. How they play the game is the only way to play it. And the content they do is the only content that matters.

All I see are a bunch of people who think they are chads but are likely just chumps...

[Hauzhi]

This guy is just bad

- - - Updated - - -

This guy doesnt know this fucking game is design for trash casuals

Trash casuals play this game for couple weeks. They lvl, see the dungeons and thats it. There is nothing else to do.

So stop pretending game is designed for casuals.

Game is designed for addicted players with low standards.

Thats what the game is designed for.

A trash video game casual player play other games.

They dont want to catch yellow rabbits in korthia or fly around waiting for rares that are not rare at all.

[cparle87]

No, I’m simply saying that ow has a multiplayer part too. It can be ignored but it’s there.

This elitism about the “true multiplayer” won’t help the game.

You pretty clearly said you don't consider open world content to be "true" single player content because the option to do it in a group is there and therefore it's not valid.

[chiddie]

You pretty clearly said you don't consider open world content to be "true" single player content because the option to do it in a group is there and therefore it's not valid.

Everything started from you saying that people that don’t partake to multiplayer content don’t deserve anything.

I just pointed out that open world CAN be multiplayer content too (and that’s quite undeniable), end of the story.

I’m playing a lot of D3 since WoW offers nothing to casuals/solos, there are people that only play in party, there are people that only play solo, nobody cares about what others do or get even if they are all getting more or less the same things.

Stop caring too much about what others get doing what, IF you enjoy what you’re doing because it’s fun it should not be a major concern.

But of course this is not WoW’s case, where the major fun comes 99% in having an higher ilvl than the rest of the plebe.

[Coldkil]

Everyone thinks how they see the game is the right way. How they feel about the game is correct. How they play the game is the only way to play it. And the content they do is the only content that matters.

All I see are a bunch of people who think they are chads but are likely just chumps...

Wow, a great addition to the discussion. Now my gameplay time is much better, thanks.

[cparle87]

Everything started from you saying that people that don’t partake to multiplayer content don’t deserve anything.

I just pointed out that open world CAN be multiplayer content too (and that’s quite undeniable), end of the story.

I’m playing a lot of D3 since WoW offers nothing to casuals/solos, there are people that only play in party, there are people that only play solo, nobody cares about what others do or get even if they are all getting more or less the same things.

Stop caring too much about what others get doing what, IF you enjoy what you’re doing because it’s fun it should not be a major concern.

But of course this is not WoW’s case, where the major fun comes 99% in having an higher ilvl than the rest of the plebe.

Stop strawmanning. I said they don't deserve the absolute best.

And your use of hyperbole is completely insulting. You can get normal raid level conduits, the same legendaries as mythic raiders, full tier for the first time ever, and a full set of equal to or nearly normal raid tier gear from chests and rares.

You seem to be the one who cares more than anyone about other people having better things than you because they do group content. Considering your literal quote that apparently you can only have 1% of the fun of everyone else if they're better geared than you.

Your entire argument seems to be "soloers have no line of progression because I say so. Ignore all that other stuff it doesn't count cause non-soloers can get it too."

[chiddie]

Stop strawmanning. I said they don't deserve the absolute best.

And your use of hyperbole is completely insulting. You can get normal raid level conduits, the same legendaries as mythic raiders, full tier for the first time ever, and a full set of equal to or nearly normal raid tier gear from chests and rares.

You seem to be the one who cares more than anyone about other people having better things than you because they do group content. Considering your literal quote that apparently you can only have 1% of the fun of everyone else if they're better geared than you.

Your entire argument seems to be "soloers have no line of progression because I say so. Ignore all that other stuff it doesn't count cause non-soloers can get it too."

In fact they are not even remotely close to having the absolute best. Assuming they get everything can get outside the triad, they will land somewhere between 250 and 255, that is 20-25 less ilvl from “the best”. Quite a huge gap.

But ilvl for ME is not a big issue, the main issue is having 1-2 months of progression every 6 months and then nothing. I’m talking about ilvl because the core of the game is getting better gear since 2004.

They are revamping professions because it’s the cheapest way to grant progression without having to invent challenging open world stuff, that would require a hella lot of more brainstorming and coding time.

[Celement]

In fact they are not even remotely close to having the absolute best. Assuming they get everything can get outside the triad, they will land somewhere between 250 and 255, that is 20-25 less ilvl from “the best”. Quite a huge gap.

But ilvl for ME is not a big issue, the main issue is having 1-2 months of progression every 6 months and then nothing. I’m talking about ilvl because the core of the game is getting better gear since 2004.

They are revamping professions because it’s the cheapest way to grant progression without having to invent challenging open world stuff, that would require a hella lot of more brainstorming and coding time.

I mean most raiders cap out power progression wise at the same time. The reason why most guilds push lock out rather then farm now is a combination of bosses having punishing pass fail mechanics that wipe the raid. Alongside the fact that the vault and mythic plus covers off the rest of the gear.

[chiddie]

I mean most raiders cap out power progression wise at the same time. The reason why most guilds push lock out rather then farm now is a combination of bosses having punishing pass fail mechanics that wipe the raid. Alongside the fact that the vault and mythic plus covers off the rest of the gear.

Most mythic raiders haven’t even gone past the Crab I think. But yes they somehow compensate with the Vault.

I can agree that WoW has been always like this and it makes maybe little sense to have it changed but let’s at least do not pretend it’s particularly casual/solo satisfying progression wise.

[Celement]

Most mythic raiders haven’t even gone past the Crab I think. But yes they somehow compensate with the Vault.

I can agree that WoW has been always like this and it makes maybe little sense to have it changed but let’s at least do not pretend it’s particularly casual/solo satisfying progression wise.

I won't but no mmorpg should be a satisfying solo progression game. I think at best something like path of exiles or diablo sort of pull it off but there is always goog to be compromises from a design perspective.

You can never really serve both the solo crowd and the group crowd.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I'd say the purpose of the game (for the devs) is to make money, and (for the players) to entertain.

Rated pvp pushed me out of doing anything worthwhile with pvp. No jumping into battlegrounds for some fun and coming away with something useful anymore. Can't even unlock an old artifact tint because it requires rated wins.

Ya know I feel like this doesn't get mentioned enough. I genuinely don't understand why regular battlegrounds haven't had anything remotely useful as rewards for like a decade.

I don't play SWTOR a ton (maybe 2 months out of the year?), but when I do it's pretty much always to level/story and then hop in some warzones. They actually give currency you can use for real gear! Imagine.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the PvP gearing is way, way more punishing than PvE because you have to beat actual people who keep getting better and better over the years. And doing arena is completely different than just hopping into a random BG, way more than the gulf between doing a regular dungeon and an m+ one.

(Also frankly their bolster system is way better for casual players so you don't instantly get annihilated all the time)

[Groundwalker]

Mythic players are way more than 0.1% of the player base. Today its more likely that you can swap the numbers and remove the dot, 10%.

In SoO 9000 guilds killed at least one boss on mythic. 22k on normal. We are closing in on half of the amount of normal players(41%ish). Which wasn't the case just a few years ago. In Tomb of Sargeras it was 9k vs 31k. Less than 30%. Going back in time, the raiders were even at even lower percentages simply because it had more players and more players are likely to have a bigger spread on what content they are playing.

If anything, blizzard should cater more to those who already play the game and has done for years, the raiders.

CONGRATULATIONS! This line of thought brought you the Shadow Lands expansion, players unsubscribing in mass amounts, and Blizzard being sold to Microsoft. I have no doubt continuing on that path will lead to many more numerous great accolades. *Cheers!

[Coldkil]

I won't but no mmorpg should be a satisfying solo progression game. I think at best something like path of exiles or diablo sort of pull it off but there is always goog to be compromises from a design perspective.

You can never really serve both the solo crowd and the group crowd.

Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.

[Thalsarion]

Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.

But the thing is this is how wow use to be fundamentally. The moment they changed it to what we have now is when people started leaving. So maybe it wasn't such a good idea to change wow fundamentally in the first place and it's better to go back to what we had.

[Celement]

Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.

If the answer is make a new game usually its better to make a new game then try that drastic of a change.

[Miffinat0r]

As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

•Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

•Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

• Add-ons should be severely limited.

Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

• PvP should not be gear dependent

Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

• PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.

[Thalsarion]

As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

•Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

•Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

• Add-ons should be severely limited.

Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

• PvP should not be gear dependent

Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

• PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.

Excellent points.

1. Gear for sure shouldn’t be coming from mythic, if anything drop a specific transmog off bosses if that’s what you want the ‘gear’ to be, but absolutely no power should come from it at all.

2. Tokens for sure. It’s astounding to me that people hate this idea. It literally rewards you more gear for playing the game I don’t get it at all.

3. Addons, yeah not sure how they will do it tho

4. Pvp, I agree it shouldn’t, and honestly if they truly do copy the wod model then next season it truly won’t matter because essentially if you pvp on any skill level then you will get the best gear. Which is great.

5. Ptr. Yeah I see this as sort of a non issue myself. If people want to go nuts and full clear the content in 1 hour on release then let them.

And honestly I don’t see an issue with an mmo having a path to where gear is the main chase. The issue is when they have the gear be the main chase, and then lock it behind systems that don’t respect your time as a player.

[jeezusisacasual]

As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

•Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

•Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

• Add-ons should be severely limited.

Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

• PvP should not be gear dependent

Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

• PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.

I agree with everything here completely. The biggest pushback is that people only do X or Y content to see numbers go higher but i myself dont really care for raiding and find it to be to restrictive in 2022 since every other gaming avenue allows you to pick up and play including FF14 ( you get marginally better gear which is not as large of a gap as it is in WoW ). Everything should be pick up and play to a degree perhaps not as fast as a find match in league but you get my point.

People tend to want a date in which they can be " finished" and come back and if they feel as if they are never finished by the time they look to come back that feeling will be with them. People should be celebrated for taking breaks or skipping patches but not have a endless wave of shit to do before they are ready for that content, its a reason why classic sucked because you had to stay relevant and with all the hurdles people have to jump over now once they hit level its insane, it should be visit the newest zone spend some time getting gear and start doing dungeons / raid ( altho the hurdles the guilds put on people is another thing which again did i say i dont like raiding? ).

Make the game more like a modern game and less like a game from 2004.

[Echo of Soul]

Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?

[Coldkil]

Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?

The gear of Mythic raid has been taken away already by 15s and m+ in general. Gearing and rewards from Mythic are nothing worth pursuing due to how the reward structure is.

Mythic needs rewards, but something you can literally get only there. And actually the same should happen for rhings like +22/25.