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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'd say the purpose of the game (for the devs) is to make money, and (for the players) to entertain.

    Rated pvp pushed me out of doing anything worthwhile with pvp. No jumping into battlegrounds for some fun and coming away with something useful anymore. Can't even unlock an old artifact tint because it requires rated wins.
    Ya know I feel like this doesn't get mentioned enough. I genuinely don't understand why regular battlegrounds haven't had anything remotely useful as rewards for like a decade.

    I don't play SWTOR a ton (maybe 2 months out of the year?), but when I do it's pretty much always to level/story and then hop in some warzones. They actually give currency you can use for real gear! Imagine.

    Maybe it's just me, but I think the PvP gearing is way, way more punishing than PvE because you have to beat actual people who keep getting better and better over the years. And doing arena is completely different than just hopping into a random BG, way more than the gulf between doing a regular dungeon and an m+ one.

    (Also frankly their bolster system is way better for casual players so you don't instantly get annihilated all the time)

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Mythic players are way more than 0.1% of the player base. Today its more likely that you can swap the numbers and remove the dot, 10%.

    In SoO 9000 guilds killed at least one boss on mythic. 22k on normal. We are closing in on half of the amount of normal players(41%ish). Which wasn't the case just a few years ago. In Tomb of Sargeras it was 9k vs 31k. Less than 30%. Going back in time, the raiders were even at even lower percentages simply because it had more players and more players are likely to have a bigger spread on what content they are playing.

    If anything, blizzard should cater more to those who already play the game and has done for years, the raiders.
    CONGRATULATIONS! This line of thought brought you the Shadow Lands expansion, players unsubscribing in mass amounts, and Blizzard being sold to Microsoft. I have no doubt continuing on that path will lead to many more numerous great accolades. *Cheers!

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I won't but no mmorpg should be a satisfying solo progression game. I think at best something like path of exiles or diablo sort of pull it off but there is always goog to be compromises from a design perspective.

    You can never really serve both the solo crowd and the group crowd.
    Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

    So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

    So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.
    But the thing is this is how wow use to be fundamentally. The moment they changed it to what we have now is when people started leaving. So maybe it wasn't such a good idea to change wow fundamentally in the first place and it's better to go back to what we had.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Agree, but there are ways to make it so. Look at GW2 - different game, different playerbase, but it's as solo friendly i could imagine. but the important part is that's a different game - so differnet design choices and different type of players that likes it.

    So, there are solutions but would require changing how WoW fundamentally works and/or it's received by players and i don't know how much of this is really good for WoW.
    If the answer is make a new game usually its better to make a new game then try that drastic of a change.

  6. #766
    As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

    •Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

    This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

    •Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

    WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

    • Add-ons should be severely limited.

    Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

    • PvP should not be gear dependent

    Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

    • PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

    Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


    I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

    •Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

    This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

    •Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

    WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

    • Add-ons should be severely limited.

    Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

    • PvP should not be gear dependent

    Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

    • PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

    Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


    I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.
    Excellent points.

    1. Gear for sure shouldn’t be coming from mythic, if anything drop a specific transmog off bosses if that’s what you want the ‘gear’ to be, but absolutely no power should come from it at all.

    2. Tokens for sure. It’s astounding to me that people hate this idea. It literally rewards you more gear for playing the game I don’t get it at all.

    3. Addons, yeah not sure how they will do it tho

    4. Pvp, I agree it shouldn’t, and honestly if they truly do copy the wod model then next season it truly won’t matter because essentially if you pvp on any skill level then you will get the best gear. Which is great.

    5. Ptr. Yeah I see this as sort of a non issue myself. If people want to go nuts and full clear the content in 1 hour on release then let them.

    And honestly I don’t see an issue with an mmo having a path to where gear is the main chase. The issue is when they have the gear be the main chase, and then lock it behind systems that don’t respect your time as a player.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    As I said earlier--this thread is kind of pointless at this point because Ion himself acknowledged that they were doing a disservice for players who don't engage in the competitive side of the end game. I think there's some reasonable solutions here that would create a better experience for all:

    •Mythic Raids no longer yield gear.

    This to me is the first thing that needs to be taken care of. If you lower the max gear cap to heroic you lower the amount of ilvl between the two groups. If Mythic is supposed to be the "hardest" content in the game then it shouldn't have actual player power locked behind it. It should yield mounts, cosmetics, and unique titles. FF14 does this with ultimates, and I'm sorry it is the better design. If the top guilds want to prove they're the best then let them actually compete on skill alone not over gearing content and mad rush dash for BoEs and farms.

    •Content should yield tokens for gear no matter what the content is

    WoW is the only video game I know of where the design has this ultra strict interpretation that the hardest content yields the best gear I don't disagree with the sentiment but the absolute puritan view of this philosophy harms the game in today's MMO market. Cap out how much tokens you can get from all content depending on their difficulty and if you hit one cap you can't cap out on the rest. This will decentivize the idea that the top players are forced to do X content. For example are you a WQ Solo player? You will cap out at 50 tokens doing that content. If you hit that cap you can't get tokens from M+ or Raiding. M+ Keys yield 100 tokens for 15+ and Heroic raiding yields 200 tokens. Make it weekly so raiders don't feel the need to go grind for tokens in M+ during their lockouts. This way everyone can move to BiS depending on the content they want. The exclusivity argument with regards to gear really shouldn't exist. It's a forced scarcity argument that doesn't need to exist within a fantasy video game, this is not real life.

    • Add-ons should be severely limited.

    Parses, DPS Meters, and threat meters are totally fine in my book. DBM needs to go. Stop designing the game around DBM and make your encounters more telegraphic and operate from there. This is yet another reason why casuals don't touch endgame content because the design of the game is you must have these and because the casual path is such a short path with regard to gearing it's rather abrupt.

    • PvP should not be gear dependent

    Open World PvP should, sure, fully agree and accept that. But ranked BGs, Arena, and unranked BGs should not be gear based. PvP is skill based and anyone who argues different really doesn't like to prove who's the better player, they want exclusivity.

    • PTR should not include any dungeons or raids

    Hire QC testers. I actually hope MS provides them the budget to do that. PTR is basically giving the dedicated players who influence a lot within the community as far as gatekeeping content goes, an open book test before the patch drops. This is an advantage that needs to be nixed. Drop everything at once on release and hire professionals to do the testing for you.


    I think if WoW adopts these measures they'll be well prepped for the future of the MMO market. Right now the game is stagnant because the only thing the devs know is basically taking Brad McQuaid's formula on MMORPGs and just taking it to it's logical conclusion which is a MMO where the open world is a lobby and the only thing that players progress toward is gear that's essentially locked behind a small community based on scarcity built-in to the game by design.
    I agree with everything here completely. The biggest pushback is that people only do X or Y content to see numbers go higher but i myself dont really care for raiding and find it to be to restrictive in 2022 since every other gaming avenue allows you to pick up and play including FF14 ( you get marginally better gear which is not as large of a gap as it is in WoW ). Everything should be pick up and play to a degree perhaps not as fast as a find match in league but you get my point.

    People tend to want a date in which they can be " finished" and come back and if they feel as if they are never finished by the time they look to come back that feeling will be with them. People should be celebrated for taking breaks or skipping patches but not have a endless wave of shit to do before they are ready for that content, its a reason why classic sucked because you had to stay relevant and with all the hurdles people have to jump over now once they hit level its insane, it should be visit the newest zone spend some time getting gear and start doing dungeons / raid ( altho the hurdles the guilds put on people is another thing which again did i say i dont like raiding? ).

    Make the game more like a modern game and less like a game from 2004.

  9. #769
    Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?
    The gear of Mythic raid has been taken away already by 15s and m+ in general. Gearing and rewards from Mythic are nothing worth pursuing due to how the reward structure is.

    Mythic needs rewards, but something you can literally get only there. And actually the same should happen for rhings like +22/25.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by stutt- View Post
    Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

    I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

    I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

    People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

    I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

    Bro what are you even trying to say? Would you be so kind to leave others in peace with what they feel they need to achieve for their personal taste?

    You're contradicting yourself btw, you yourself set your limits and decide wether or not cutting edge or 0,1% seasonal mythic + cutoff is your goal or not.

    You are not complaining about the game revolving around the "0,1%" of players, you are just complaining about it NOT revolving around YOU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    Trash casuals play this game for couple weeks. They lvl, see the dungeons and thats it. There is nothing else to do.

    So stop pretending game is designed for casuals.

    Game is designed for addicted players with low standards.

    Thats what the game is designed for.

    A trash video game casual player play other games.

    They dont want to catch yellow rabbits in korthia or fly around waiting for rares that are not rare at all.
    If it's trash for tiny minds with low standards then why are you experiencing it? And if you are not then how comes that you feel qualified enough to make such a verdict?

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?
    why do you need better gear? there's no tier above mythic. you're done.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Why are you trying to take away gear from mythic raiders?? We're not trying to take away your world quest gear. Do you want the game to die?
    No in fact we would like it to stop doing what it's doing right now which is dying if at all possible.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Icon View Post
    why do you need better gear? there's no tier above mythic. you're done.
    Its mostly because of the design since the start, the gear skips most of the next patch shenanigans.

    Average player returning to the patch -- >Spend hours playing catch up before even trying the new things-->Get burnt out.

    Active Player-->Already overgearing the irrelevant world content -->Start spamming M+10s and gain 10 ilvls the first week, unlocked M+, gain another 5-10 ilvl the second week as any self-respecting actual player should be doing in terms of the last 3 expansions, before that it was the same, just with only raids.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The gear of Mythic raid has been taken away already by 15s and m+ in general. Gearing and rewards from Mythic are nothing worth pursuing due to how the reward structure is.

    Mythic needs rewards, but something you can literally get only there. And actually the same should happen for rhings like +22/25.
    But thats the point of the whole system that the majority doesnt understand.

    The way the game is designed, you must want to raid Mythic to even bother with it, as intended, only difference i have seen last 3 expansions?

    The average good Mythic Raider in current patch numbers is 270-275 the first ~3-4 weeks and is mostly done gearing up apart from you know, trinket this, vault that, the average Heroic Raider with basic luck is done 4-5 weeks after that with vault and this and that to reach the same item level.

    And thats good.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post

    But thats the point of the whole system that the majority doesnt understand.

    The way the game is designed, you must want to raid Mythic to even bother with it, as intended, only difference i have seen last 3 expansions?

    The average good Mythic Raider in current patch numbers is 270-275 the first ~3-4 weeks and is mostly done gearing up apart from you know, trinket this, vault that, the average Heroic Raider with basic luck is done 4-5 weeks after that with vault and this and that to reach the same item level.

    And thats good.
    This is really true and it's weird to me how many people here don't realize it or something?

    Friend of mine mythic raids in an average guild that's cleared like half of the bosses, while I only do m+ (and started the patch two weeks late). He was basically "ahead" of me for less than a month, and by now there's effectively no difference. I have 3 characters with 4pc at 273-271-271 and he's like 275.

    I actually raided in BFA and it was the same - my m+ only characters were like +/- 2% of my raid characters after a couple months. And it was great because I could play them in tough keys too!

    Outside of a few boutique items like the jailer weapon or a trinket, mythic raids only award meaningful gear progression to like the top 100 guilds or so. Everyone else is propped up by the vault and/or valor items.

    And yet people still raid mythic! Because a lot of people actually really enjoy it. And personally, whether I'm raiding or not, I don't think there's any problem with this. Progression is fun if you have the time. If it's not, you can just pug dungeons and be fine. Multiple paths already exist!

    I'd have no problem with adding more cosmetics and stuff, that's always a cool thing. But it's weird the way people don't seem to realize how few people actually get consistent rewards from mythic raiding.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    snip
    Because its easier to blame the game and everything else but yourself, real life reflects in game, or as i like to call it, people refuse to be bad or branded a loser at one more thing in their life, so the game, the devs, the community must be at fault or else they have to accept they are failing once more.

    The game has 1 true requirement, and thats to not be a selfish entitled human and to find similarly minded people and enjoy the game as its intended.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Because its easier to blame the game and everything else but yourself, real life reflects in game, or as i like to call it, people refuse to be bad or branded a loser at one more thing in their life, so the game, the devs, the community must be at fault or else they have to accept they are failing once more.

    The game has 1 true requirement, and thats to not be a selfish entitled human and to find similarly minded people and enjoy the game as its intended.
    Thats great and all, but how is that working out for wow playerbase over the last couple of years?

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalsarion View Post
    Thats great and all, but how is that working out for wow playerbase over the last couple of years?
    Works great for me actually, my own bubble of decently skilled players that keep coming back every patch to get AoTC and back to raid break has been working wonders.

    In reality the 1-shot mechanic fights give us a headache cause some of the players are getting older , no better way to say it, not improving as the game progresses, but they have been with me for 6-8 years so i am not gonna abandon them, its just HC.

    No one gives a rat ass about the rest of the players, if the game stops having updates cause supposedly all you amazing "Casuals" quit, then i will simply wont resub if there is no new raid.

    You guys are acting that if you personally dont resub, the game will close its servers, TOMORROW.

    Relax special snowflake, no one cares, as i said in another post, you guys buy the expansion, 6 months of sub, tokens, mounts, store pets, and then "I AM UNSUBBING BLIZZARD", after dropping 150-250$ in 2 months, acting superior about it, completely braindead.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-05-13 at 07:30 PM.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Works great for me actually, my own bubble...
    Wasn't my question

  20. #780
    yeah i know it was just a bad comparison of the typical responses around here concerning gear.
    Last edited by Lex Icon; 2022-05-13 at 07:38 PM.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

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