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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    It is the best non raid gear you have been able to get right enough. The thing is that after a few weeks you are done. I think that is the main thing people are complaining about. Now i just quit till the next patch after i have done the reps and what not but for people who still want to play the game? Unless they raid or PvP then they have stagnation. Now i can tell from this forum that raiders don't give a fuck about that and they would shit bricks if there was a way to improve your gear out side of a raid but if Blizzard added something to say add 10 ilvls to an item? Collect 15 doodads over a week doing preferably something fun and new that would keep everyone but raiders happy.
    That's not a bad thing, though. Blizzard has accepted cyclical subs for pretty much the life of the game. It's the players who seem to have a problem with actually being done, oddly in complete opposition to the vocal hated of titanforging which ironically did give the possibility of extended progression.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  2. #802
    The only thing killing this game is it’s community. Neither side of the player base will shut up. Blizzard does something one side likes, the other freaks the hell out. It’s just a constant ping pong back and forth. It’s not too different than withered as they fall to madness lacking a source of arcane to feed their addictions. The community is stuck in an endless loop of rage and despair chasing the same satisfaction they once knew.

    WoW will never be what it once was, it can never be that again. The sooner people accept that and move on, the quicker they can make the decisions to leave or keep playing. A very large part of what made the game so good back then, was the majority of its players shared the same sense of wonder with the game because it was fresh. The majority of the people you played with weren’t burnt out. People were willing to do more for so much less. You got in to groups and had fun with randoms.

    It’s not that the game got bad… it’s that you stopped playing the game the way you used to.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I've been arguing throughout this thread that solo players have it better than I think they've ever had. They can get full tier, double legos, full normal raid conduits, and a complete set of 246-259 gear. Sadly for some they don't call this a progression curve at all because it's not as long as raiders and key runners.
    LOL, normal raid gear is completely worthless and frankly the most that they deserve. If they had been able to get heroic raid gear a lot of mythic raiders would quit on the spot in protest.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    You sound like a nice fella. Imagine how less toxic this game would be if people only worried about their own gear instead of what gear other people have. I guess you wanting to stop people getting any gear is a new low even for this forum. Grats for that is guess.

    This game has always been raid or die. You raid and get good gear or you get scraps. I guess the high point in this expansion is that you can actually get normal level raid gear. I mean they have shitty stats but the 252 ilvl is prolly enough to get the raiders tears flowing. If you grind for weeks you can even get enough doodads to get 246 gear and make tier. Chuck in your 291 legos and 259? stuff from the WB and a crafted item you can get the best non raid gear you have ever been able to. You never even have to try and join people who hate you and try to raid. It is pretty sweet!
    Thats just not true tbh.
    For example Frostmage trinkets u get your bests in m+
    Then u have 2 slots of legendarys which u get from crafting (or if u are fine with the belt from the questline its one u have to craft).
    You can forge Tiersets through the creation catalyst either from gear u get in the raid or in m+
    U dont have to raid u can run dungeons instead - but if u dont want to do that either then its ur CHOICE that u miss out
    But if u want good gear from worldquests i think 259 (or is it 262? i am not sure here) is your limit then because lets be honest a WQ taking 5 minutes should not reward gear equivalent to mythic raid gear

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    LOL, normal raid gear is completely worthless and frankly the most that they deserve. If they had been able to get heroic raid gear a lot of mythic raiders would quit on the spot in protest.
    Gotta love the dichotomy, the duality here. If it's not the best, it's completely worthless. Nothing in between. No such thing as ok gear, sufficient gear, enough.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeerah View Post
    Thats just not true tbh.
    For example Frostmage trinkets u get your bests in m+
    Then u have 2 slots of legendarys which u get from crafting (or if u are fine with the belt from the questline its one u have to craft).
    You can forge Tiersets through the creation catalyst either from gear u get in the raid or in m+
    U dont have to raid u can run dungeons instead - but if u dont want to do that either then its ur CHOICE that u miss out
    But if u want good gear from worldquests i think 259 (or is it 262? i am not sure here) is your limit then because lets be honest a WQ taking 5 minutes should not reward gear equivalent to mythic raid gear
    You don't even need to raid or do keys to get tier. The 246 sandworn relic gear or if you're lucky 259 from Antros are valid targets. Just not the 252 cypher gear for some reason. You can get full tier, full normal conduits, double 291 legos, and a near complete (fully complete in 9.2.5) set of 252 without ever touching a group or talking to someone.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    LOL, normal raid gear is completely worthless and frankly the most that they deserve. If they had been able to get heroic raid gear a lot of mythic raiders would quit on the spot in protest.
    *sniff sniff* I smell shite. I find it hard to believe mythic raiders would even give a shit that a bunch of strangers got worse gear than them That they would quit over it sounds kinda bat shit crazy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xeerah View Post
    Thats just not true tbh.
    For example Frostmage trinkets u get your bests in m+
    Then u have 2 slots of legendarys which u get from crafting (or if u are fine with the belt from the questline its one u have to craft).
    You can forge Tiersets through the creation catalyst either from gear u get in the raid or in m+
    U dont have to raid u can run dungeons instead - but if u dont want to do that either then its ur CHOICE that u miss out
    But if u want good gear from worldquests i think 259 (or is it 262? i am not sure here) is your limit then because lets be honest a WQ taking 5 minutes should not reward gear equivalent to mythic raid gear
    That is kinda what i said after the first line you read. I am fine with missing out on better gear and nor would i expect mythic gear by doing WQ. I get the best non raid gear i can get and am happy enough with it.Then i just piss off to other games till a new patch come around. As cparle87 said apparently Blizzard are fine with that. I do find that an utterly mental way to run a game. I guess the lost revenue is less than the cost to try and make enough content to keep people playing? Feck knows. I am happy enough to be one of the cyclical subs and Blizz seems fine with that as well. Guess it is win/win.

  7. #807
    Game is fine, bads will be bads.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2022-05-15 at 12:48 PM.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    Raiding is definitely too hard at the moment. My friends returned in 9.0 and joined a casual guild who struggled and only got 3 bosses in Normal CN the first 3 weeks and they said fuck this and quit. Normal mode should be faceroll and heroic should be slightly difficult. Mythic can stay difficult but not as much it is now.
    My dude I m sorry but if the guild took 3 weeks to clean shriekwing and another 2 bosses of their choice from the wings after on normal CN then it's a problem of the guild being absolutely brain dead and not raid design. Normal is still faceroll. Heroic is ok and yeah I agree mythic is getting to a point where its too hard even for the average good player. But 3 weeks for 3 normal bosses.... I don't know chief

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm inclined to agree. It would also cut down on the number of people going into keys, any keys, without knowing mechanics. Since the jump from heroic to mythic DOES add a bit of something to the bosses.
    Oh yeah, I think it would help alot, the only issue I could see would be that queued mythics would need to be repeatable instead of one per week, but I think that would also just make gearing for m+ or raids easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    It is the best non raid gear you have been able to get right enough. The thing is that after a few weeks you are done. I think that is the main thing people are complaining about. Now i just quit till the next patch after i have done the reps and what not but for people who still want to play the game? Unless they raid or PvP then they have stagnation. Now i can tell from this forum that raiders don't give a fuck about that and they would shit bricks if there was a way to improve your gear out side of a raid but if Blizzard added something to say add 10 ilvls to an item? Collect 15 doodads over a week doing preferably something fun and new that would keep everyone but raiders happy.
    Is that so much worse than the old system though? I mean, getting the full tier set is just marginally faster than it had been before and the content you do for that is actually quite nice open world content with a mix of daily quests, world quests and rare hunts where you also have the option of collecting appereances, mounts or pets. I would say thats quite a step up from how it had been before for casual non-raiders, where most of your daily progress had been just rush your daily heroic and be done with it.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Game is fine, bads will be bads.
    "The game is fine, it's our customers who are defective." -- a line that doesn't actually work at Blizzard performance review time.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    My dude I m sorry but if the guild took 3 weeks to clean shriekwing and another 2 bosses of their choice from the wings after on normal CN then it's a problem of the guild being absolutely brain dead and not raid design. Normal is still faceroll. Heroic is ok and yeah I agree mythic is getting to a point where its too hard even for the average good player. But 3 weeks for 3 normal bosses.... I don't know chief
    Don't underestimate just how horribly horribly bad the average WoW player is.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Don't underestimate just how horribly horribly bad the average WoW player is.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. I am sure you actually perform adequately.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    *sniff sniff* I smell shite. I find it hard to believe mythic raiders would even give a shit that a bunch of strangers got worse gear than them That they would quit over it sounds kinda bat shit crazy.
    .
    Guy is just trolling, look at the post history

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    You understand that m+ are dungeons? Like, they are dungeons, you can get endgame itemlevel gear through playing dungeons. Thats the whole reason m+ exist, to have an endgame loop centered around just playing dungeons. You also can get I think it was around itemlevel 259? Itemlevel though honor, therefore normal battlegrounds. You can get one itemlevel 260 slot as well as your legendary slot though professions and reputatation vendors always weren't that worthwile because you were likely to have better gear when you reached the required reputation.

    So basically, you have options. Not to forget that it takes quite some grind to reach 252 item level, so no, you're lying here. Its an alternative for solo players to farm gear at raid level, not really something that fully replaced the normal mode. So whats the problem, there's quite the gameplay loop here. You can even reach heroic itemlevel through the weekly mythic dungeons event which only require m0 dungeons. you just can't get regular heroic item level gear or any mythic item level stuff without doing organized and challenging content.
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    I'd agree with this. Anything requiring a premade group that can't be completed solo is not casual content.

    Casual content doesn't mean easy content, it's content you can do casually, on a whim, that doesn't require any coordination to get started with. Casual content often is easy but eas content isn't always casual content.

    The mage tower is casual content, very hard casual content but still casual content.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Oh yeah, I think it would help alot, the only issue I could see would be that queued mythics would need to be repeatable instead of one per week, but I think that would also just make gearing for m+ or raids easier.
    They removed the daily lockout for queueing for specific heroics, they could do so for mythics. Or just queue random mythc infinitely like you can random heroics.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I'd agree with this. Anything requiring a premade group that can't be completed solo is not casual content.

    Casual content doesn't mean easy content, it's content you can do casually, on a whim, that doesn't require any coordination to get started with. Casual content often is easy but eas content isn't always casual content.

    The mage tower is casual content, very hard casual content but still casual content.
    It is only hardcore content if you think it requires a high level of competence and coordination to utilize the Looking for Group Tool which nearly automates every aspect of group search for you outside of you requesting an invite to any group you wantto join and the group leader accepting it. It can be done on a whim, sometimes even faster than the automated queue. And no, I don't accept your definition of casual content because what it describes isn't a casual player but somebody suffering such high levels of crippling anxiety that they are incapable of interacting with other people online.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.
    Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

    I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

    EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

    A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2022-05-16 at 12:18 PM.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

    I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

    EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

    A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.
    Then you're not a casual - like at all. Really, the median bar in WoW is really lower than someone here can imagine. The fact you got bored of the game and didn't have fun anymore doesn't make you more casual or anything - just the fact you inform yourself before playing makes you more than a casual.

    If a casual player gets bored of a game, it's highly unlikely he will ever return. Because for the most part it doesn't have much attachment to the game.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

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