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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    Raiding is definitely too hard at the moment. My friends returned in 9.0 and joined a casual guild who struggled and only got 3 bosses in Normal CN the first 3 weeks and they said fuck this and quit. Normal mode should be faceroll and heroic should be slightly difficult. Mythic can stay difficult but not as much it is now.
    My dude I m sorry but if the guild took 3 weeks to clean shriekwing and another 2 bosses of their choice from the wings after on normal CN then it's a problem of the guild being absolutely brain dead and not raid design. Normal is still faceroll. Heroic is ok and yeah I agree mythic is getting to a point where its too hard even for the average good player. But 3 weeks for 3 normal bosses.... I don't know chief

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm inclined to agree. It would also cut down on the number of people going into keys, any keys, without knowing mechanics. Since the jump from heroic to mythic DOES add a bit of something to the bosses.
    Oh yeah, I think it would help alot, the only issue I could see would be that queued mythics would need to be repeatable instead of one per week, but I think that would also just make gearing for m+ or raids easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    It is the best non raid gear you have been able to get right enough. The thing is that after a few weeks you are done. I think that is the main thing people are complaining about. Now i just quit till the next patch after i have done the reps and what not but for people who still want to play the game? Unless they raid or PvP then they have stagnation. Now i can tell from this forum that raiders don't give a fuck about that and they would shit bricks if there was a way to improve your gear out side of a raid but if Blizzard added something to say add 10 ilvls to an item? Collect 15 doodads over a week doing preferably something fun and new that would keep everyone but raiders happy.
    Is that so much worse than the old system though? I mean, getting the full tier set is just marginally faster than it had been before and the content you do for that is actually quite nice open world content with a mix of daily quests, world quests and rare hunts where you also have the option of collecting appereances, mounts or pets. I would say thats quite a step up from how it had been before for casual non-raiders, where most of your daily progress had been just rush your daily heroic and be done with it.

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Game is fine, bads will be bads.
    "The game is fine, it's our customers who are defective." -- a line that doesn't actually work at Blizzard performance review time.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    My dude I m sorry but if the guild took 3 weeks to clean shriekwing and another 2 bosses of their choice from the wings after on normal CN then it's a problem of the guild being absolutely brain dead and not raid design. Normal is still faceroll. Heroic is ok and yeah I agree mythic is getting to a point where its too hard even for the average good player. But 3 weeks for 3 normal bosses.... I don't know chief
    Don't underestimate just how horribly horribly bad the average WoW player is.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Don't underestimate just how horribly horribly bad the average WoW player is.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. I am sure you actually perform adequately.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    *sniff sniff* I smell shite. I find it hard to believe mythic raiders would even give a shit that a bunch of strangers got worse gear than them That they would quit over it sounds kinda bat shit crazy.
    .
    Guy is just trolling, look at the post history

  7. #827
    Everything is wrong in this thread.

    A real casual person just want a good game. With a good story and an immersive world.

    They dont care about ilvl crap. I'm not saying they dont want to feel rewarded, but its not about ilvl shaite.

    Thats for the pseudo casuals that are not casuals at all. Those just suck at the game or are anti social people.

    Casual content sucks big time.
    There are 8 well designed short dungeons and thats it.
    And instead of making 100 random and complete trash world quests. Just make world long story quests. Something they can come the next day and continue.

    Coming online the next day to find other 100 useless and boring/meaningless world quests its crap. Complete trash.

    Thats it. Low standard people deserve low standard game.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    You understand that m+ are dungeons? Like, they are dungeons, you can get endgame itemlevel gear through playing dungeons. Thats the whole reason m+ exist, to have an endgame loop centered around just playing dungeons. You also can get I think it was around itemlevel 259? Itemlevel though honor, therefore normal battlegrounds. You can get one itemlevel 260 slot as well as your legendary slot though professions and reputatation vendors always weren't that worthwile because you were likely to have better gear when you reached the required reputation.

    So basically, you have options. Not to forget that it takes quite some grind to reach 252 item level, so no, you're lying here. Its an alternative for solo players to farm gear at raid level, not really something that fully replaced the normal mode. So whats the problem, there's quite the gameplay loop here. You can even reach heroic itemlevel through the weekly mythic dungeons event which only require m0 dungeons. you just can't get regular heroic item level gear or any mythic item level stuff without doing organized and challenging content.
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    I'd agree with this. Anything requiring a premade group that can't be completed solo is not casual content.

    Casual content doesn't mean easy content, it's content you can do casually, on a whim, that doesn't require any coordination to get started with. Casual content often is easy but eas content isn't always casual content.

    The mage tower is casual content, very hard casual content but still casual content.

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Oh yeah, I think it would help alot, the only issue I could see would be that queued mythics would need to be repeatable instead of one per week, but I think that would also just make gearing for m+ or raids easier.
    They removed the daily lockout for queueing for specific heroics, they could do so for mythics. Or just queue random mythc infinitely like you can random heroics.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I'd agree with this. Anything requiring a premade group that can't be completed solo is not casual content.

    Casual content doesn't mean easy content, it's content you can do casually, on a whim, that doesn't require any coordination to get started with. Casual content often is easy but eas content isn't always casual content.

    The mage tower is casual content, very hard casual content but still casual content.
    It is only hardcore content if you think it requires a high level of competence and coordination to utilize the Looking for Group Tool which nearly automates every aspect of group search for you outside of you requesting an invite to any group you wantto join and the group leader accepting it. It can be done on a whim, sometimes even faster than the automated queue. And no, I don't accept your definition of casual content because what it describes isn't a casual player but somebody suffering such high levels of crippling anxiety that they are incapable of interacting with other people online.

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.
    Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

    I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

    EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

    A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2022-05-16 at 12:18 PM.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

    I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

    EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

    A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.
    Then you're not a casual - like at all. Really, the median bar in WoW is really lower than someone here can imagine. The fact you got bored of the game and didn't have fun anymore doesn't make you more casual or anything - just the fact you inform yourself before playing makes you more than a casual.

    If a casual player gets bored of a game, it's highly unlikely he will ever return. Because for the most part it doesn't have much attachment to the game.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.

    It is only hardcore content if you think it requires a high level of competence and coordination to utilize the Looking for Group Tool which nearly automates every aspect of group search for you outside of you requesting an invite to any group you wantto join and the group leader accepting it. It can be done on a whim, sometimes even faster than the automated queue. And no, I don't accept your definition of casual content because what it describes isn't a casual player but somebody suffering such high levels of crippling anxiety that they are incapable of interacting with other people online.
    If the content requires an organized group and cannot be accessed via solo or queue-ing, it is not casual. You are the one inserting all kinds of weird stuff about anxiety or skill at the game into it. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. That is the casual playerbase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.
    You are not casual if you are doing +15 keys.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If the content requires an organized group and cannot be accessed via solo or queue-ing, it is not casual. You are the one inserting all kinds of weird stuff about anxiety or skill at the game into it. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. That is the casual playerbase.
    Your usual m+ group isn't more organized than your usual solo queue, you just have to manually pick your group and click, thats all. Organized group content would mean something where you actually coordinate with other players with whom you're playing. And actually no, what you described is just having crippling social anxiety, not being a casual. Also, do you have the statistics?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

    I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

    EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

    A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.
    Thats you're personal definition of a casual, if we would look at your average player I'm pretty sure they would follow basic class and spec guides from Wowhead or Icy-veins and have some sort of casual combat addon like dbm once they enter any harder content. Also thats your personal experience, usually doing low m+ most runs end up more or less smoothly and even if you miss the timer you still get loot and it counts for the great vault. What you want for is content for bad players with a low skill level in which you can hardly fail and WoW offers this kind of content, its called normal and heroic dungeons, lfr and open world content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.
    I'd like to add to that, that ressources to play your class on a basic level of competence are there and readily availabe and I would assume used by a significant portion of the playerbase. You have wowhead and icy-veins for a cookie cutter build as well as very basic addons like dbm and stuff that automatically without any own imput checks if an item is a gear upgrade. There are even addons that show you your rotation on a very basic level.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Your usual m+ group isn't more organized than your usual solo queue, you just have to manually pick your group and click, thats all. Organized group content would mean something where you actually coordinate with other players with whom you're playing. And actually no, what you described is just having crippling social anxiety, not being a casual. Also, do you have the statistics?
    It's organized if you can't queue for it. That's the dichotomy: Organized vs queued.

    Nothing I am talking about has anything to do with social anxiety. What a weird thing to insist on. People can like different things from you without being mentally defective in some way.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #838
    Weird that these forums used to say WoW is getting too easy, now they are saying WoW is too hard.
    Be sincere; be brief; be seated

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by TheJewishMerp View Post
    Weird that these forums used to say WoW is getting too easy, now they are saying WoW is too hard.
    People saying the first were lying.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The greatest use of a life is to spend it on something that will outlast it." -- William James
    "The Oculus, but it's the whole expansion!" -- Brianna Royce, Massively OP, on Dragon Riding

  20. #840
    I don't know, I don't think WoW is particularly challenging, it's not a cakewalk for the harder content. I think the delta between people that are good at games, and people that aren't has just widened, and the growth in streaming has just made it more visible.
    Be sincere; be brief; be seated

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