STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Diaphin]

It's organized if you can't queue for it. That's the dichotomy: Organized vs queued.

Nothing I am talking about has anything to do with social anxiety. What a weird thing to insist on. People can like different things from you without being mentally defective in some way.

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

[NineSpine]

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

[VMSmith]

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

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The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

Yes, and this. It's not fun, at all.

[Miffinat0r]

Again this goes to show how unhappy non-competitive players are in this game.

It seems to me that WoW's Devs just continually keep repeating the same mistake.

[NineSpine]

People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

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Yes, and this. It's not fun, at all.

When it comes to wow, an activity cannot be queued for because of design choices around that activity. Those design choices happen to also line up with the types of things I don't like doing, like dealing with timers and keys and the angry attitudes that go with those things. if M+ was reorganized into a type of content that could be queued for, I'd probably like it.

[Echo of Soul]

So you are saying...

No. The answer to any question that starts like that is always no.

[Daffan]

OP is kind of person to 'beat' game on LFR in 1 day than complain there is no more dungeon or raid content to do

[Diaphin]

The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

Which isn't really an argument about casual or hardcore players, its a you argument which you try to apply to the community for whatever reason. Also I'm still waiting for those juicy statistics that 50% of the playerbase doesn't do any raids, m+ or rated pvp because for that, I see suspiciously many people running around with raid or m+ pieces in the game.

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People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

Yeah, but then they shouldn't complain about them not having any content to do when its right out there and requires barely any more effort than automated queues. You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

[NineSpine]

Which isn't really an argument about casual or hardcore players, its a you argument which you try to apply to the community for whatever reason. Also I'm still waiting for those juicy statistics that 50% of the playerbase doesn't do any raids, m+ or rated pvp because for that, I see suspiciously many people running around with raid or m+ pieces in the game.

Yeah, but then they shouldn't complain about them not having any content to do when its right out there and requires barely any more effort than automated queues. You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

https://cyberpost.co/warcraft/only-1...pate-in-raids/

I don't think you are listening. Why can't there be a queue for M+? Because the systems in it require a level of interpersonal accountability and organization that makes queueing unreasonable. That's why. This isn't about having a "queue" button.

[VMSmith]

I said:

I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+

To which you replied:

You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

Did you even read what I wrote before replying to me?

What good is telling me that there are plenty of groups when I flat-out said I do not want to play with the sort of people who are in those groups?

It's like I said "I don't like shit sandwiches" and you reply "Have you looked at how many shit sandwiches that are available? You should get one."

[varren]

Normal mode raiding needs to be made significantly easier to try and steer people into organized content, IMO.

[Coldkil]

Thats you're personal definition of a casual, if we would look at your average player I'm pretty sure they would follow basic class and spec guides from Wowhead or Icy-veins and have some sort of casual combat addon like dbm once they enter any harder content. Also thats your personal experience, usually doing low m+ most runs end up more or less smoothly and even if you miss the timer you still get loot and it counts for the great vault. What you want for is content for bad players with a low skill level in which you can hardly fail and WoW offers this kind of content, its called normal and heroic dungeons, lfr and open world content.

I'd like to add to that, that ressources to play your class on a basic level of competence are there and readily availabe and I would assume used by a significant portion of the playerbase. You have wowhead and icy-veins for a cookie cutter build as well as very basic addons like dbm and stuff that automatically without any own imput checks if an item is a gear upgrade. There are even addons that show you your rotation on a very basic level.

Point is, people don't do that. I'm willing to include class guides because as you said it's information readily available. Yet not everyone does that and very few people actually check boss guides, or addons per se.

It's literally a biased view most of us have because we're so much used to it we cannot really consider playing that way a possibility. But again, you just need to check any progress tracking website and see how many players actually partake in the game the way we're so used to do.

What you said can be summed in "whoever doesn't play this way is a bad player and should have nothing worth from the game". Every content you listed is both irrelevant in terms of character progression and prone to much more failure because as you said, most bad players are stuck in it. So you lose a lot of time in LFR when pugging normal is just faster etc.

Just saying, this line of thought is what has driven WoW design in a few years and we see how good the long term results are, and what Blizzard is doing for the next expansion. Like it or not, the bulk of people playing is people who's actually for the most part clueless about a lot of things game related and just "play for fun". I fully agree that's not hard to gather informations/guides/set up addons and basically anyone who's willing to do anything remotely challenging should check that, but in fact most people simply don't. And i also agree on the fact that simply putting a little effort in the game can bring you very far in terms of character progression (in short terms, it's not hard - it just requires commitement).

And these people simply left. We're left with the two "extremes" of very well used to the game players and the completely terrible ones, which makes for a very very binary experience.

[arkanon]

Normal mode raiding needs to be made significantly easier to try and steer people into organized content, IMO.

Agree. Maybe not significantly, but certainly easier. It was flex before it was normal, and normal mode raiders at the time found it EXTREMELY EASY. Now those same players are most likely purely doing normal, or not at all. I'm really surprised by how they chose to take the difficulty. Yes, mythic became an arms race between devs and top teams, but that's like 1% or less of the players - and I don't mind if they keep making that harder and harder as required, although to be fair, I'm out of the mythic game so don't want to speak FOR those players anymore. What confuses the fuck out of me is why normal and heroic were made so much harder.

It STARTED in legion, but legion normal seemed quite straight forward. I was always on a low geared toon, but had experienced the fights, but most of the players in THAT guild had not seen them ever. We noticed a FEW fights that seemed heroic difficulty in normal, now basically all normal bosses are equal to a early heroic (when flex was added).

Flex used to be perfect for those who wanted to do the raid with a dedicated group of players, wanted a little more challenge than LFR and wanted flex in raid numbers. Now I don't know wtf it is.

I think they have convinced themselves there needs to be a clear path from lfr - normal - heroic - mythic, but that's HORRIBLY outdated and they have the data to prove it. A tiny percentage of players who only completed normal on a certain tier EVER move into a mythic guild. Some do, for sure, but for the most part, I think they need to accept that some players have no interest climbing through difficulties.

[stansted12]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I wouldn't mind end game content being hard what I think puts people off is the huge time/social commitment. I'm an adult I couldn't even think about a hardcore raid schedule.

[Gorsameth]

Agree. Maybe not significantly, but certainly easier. It was flex before it was normal, and normal mode raiders at the time found it EXTREMELY EASY. Now those same players are most likely purely doing normal, or not at all. I'm really surprised by how they chose to take the difficulty. Yes, mythic became an arms race between devs and top teams, but that's like 1% or less of the players - and I don't mind if they keep making that harder and harder as required, although to be fair, I'm out of the mythic game so don't want to speak FOR those players anymore. What confuses the fuck out of me is why normal and heroic were made so much harder.

It STARTED in legion, but legion normal seemed quite straight forward. I was always on a low geared toon, but had experienced the fights, but most of the players in THAT guild had not seen them ever. We noticed a FEW fights that seemed heroic difficulty in normal, now basically all normal bosses are equal to a early heroic (when flex was added).

Flex used to be perfect for those who wanted to do the raid with a dedicated group of players, wanted a little more challenge than LFR and wanted flex in raid numbers. Now I don't know wtf it is.

I think they have convinced themselves there needs to be a clear path from lfr - normal - heroic - mythic, but that's HORRIBLY outdated and they have the data to prove it. A tiny percentage of players who only completed normal on a certain tier EVER move into a mythic guild. Some do, for sure, but for the most part, I think they need to accept that some players have no interest climbing through difficulties.

I think reducing the ability bloat, especially on normal but potentially on all difficulties, would go a long way.

Compare the amount of things you need to deal with on for example Kargath Bladefist (first boss of WoD) with Shriekwing (first boss of SL).
Normal mode bosses, especially the first half of a raid, should probably not have more then 1 mechanic per role (Tank/DPS/Healer)

[Cloudmaker]

OP is kind of person to 'beat' game on LFR in 1 day than complain there is no more dungeon or raid content to do

No. This needs to be more balanced. We actually need more content and a bit easier gameplay so that everyone can take a part of it.

[Deadite]

OP is kind of person to 'beat' game on LFR in 1 day than complain there is no more dungeon or raid content to do

Not really. It there is no point in doing them in the first place in terms of gear. Zereth Mortis gives better gear than LFR and any dungeons. It will also be quicker just to make your tier gear than the 20 times you would have to clear the raid to get your 4 set. I only cleared LFR once to get the quest done and just to see it. That is why so many people dip out after patches. If you are a queuer and don't like running that same few dungeons ad nauseam you do the quests and get the exalted rep then tap out till the next patch. I guess that is why they are trying to make riads and what not relevant again in the next patch. All content in wow is pointless as soon as a new patch drops.

[Lady Atia]

Apparently drop rates define difficulty for some. I suppose I understand that but the frequency with which you press the correct button is really the skill level decider in many games.

So you are saying farming shiny Pokemon isn't hard either? Or in wow terms, farming rare mounts with a 0,1 drop chance. Well, you are wrong. Because difficulty can be defined differently. I find it harder to kill a boss 200 times over the curse of 200 weeks than it is to clear a mythic raid and be lucky with a 100% endboss drop.

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Not really. It there is no point in doing them in the first place in terms of gear. Zereth Mortis gives better gear than LFR and any dungeons. It will also be quicker just to make your tier gear than the 20 times you would have to clear the raid to get your 4 set. I only cleared LFR once to get the quest done and just to see it. That is why so many people dip out after patches. If you are a queuer and don't like running that same few dungeons ad nauseam you do the quests and get the exalted rep then tap out till the next patch. I guess that is why they are trying to make riads and what not relevant again in the next patch. All content in wow is pointless as soon as a new patch drops.

Not only is content pointless as soon as a new patch drops, lower difficulty are the same as soon as people can't get upgrades anymore. Legion Legendaries paired with Titanforging helped a lot with that, but Shadowlands has neither. Season 4 upgrades should atleast make people wanna farm normal/heroic again just to get base items, which is good for everyone as people who already have enough gear to overpower a raid will be more willing to help other peoples instead of just doing boosting.

[Aydinx2]

So you are saying farming shiny Pokemon isn't hard either? Or in wow terms, farming rare mounts with a 0,1 drop chance. Well, you are wrong. Because difficulty can be defined differently. I find it harder to kill a boss 200 times over the curse of 200 weeks than it is to clear a mythic raid and be lucky with a 100% endboss drop.

Sorry but this is just objectively wrong.

Farming shiny Pokemon is not difficult at all. It literally just takes time. Same with repeatedly doing a boss over and over.
Lich King Heroic is not hard. You can kill him with a single button. It just takes time for the mount to drop.

You saying you find it harder does not mean it actually is harder for you. You just don't like having to invest the time and wrongfully think that must mean it is difficulty. You're confusing "difficulty" with "effort based on time", a problem a lot of WoW players have.

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No. This needs to be more balanced. We actually need more content and a bit easier gameplay so that everyone can take a part of it.

There is already plenty of that. The vast majority of content can be done without even needing a group (Questing, Pet Battles, PvP etc.).
The only content that you can't really pug are the hardest Heroic raid bosses and most of Mythic, but somehow people like you still think there is too much "non casual" content that everyone can do.

LFR exists so casuals can see the content. If you want to get the rewards for beating the difficult content, you need to actually beat the difficult content.

The game is more casual friendly than ever but people keep lying about it in hopes of getting more free loot.

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I think reducing the ability bloat, especially on normal but potentially on all difficulties, would go a long way.

Compare the amount of things you need to deal with on for example Kargath Bladefist (first boss of WoD) with Shriekwing (first boss of SL).
Normal mode bosses, especially the first half of a raid, should probably not have more then 1 mechanic per role (Tank/DPS/Healer)

Why? It is already literally braindead content. Do you just want to not kill anything and get loot for free?
If people seriously can't beat those bosses on Normal they don't deserve to play the game tbh. How did they even manage to hit the login button?

[Delever]

I see a lot of people here complaining about normal raid difficulty and I have to ask this. Has normal mode really gotten that much harder? I stopped playing after doing 4/10 mythic on CN and I remember that normal mode CN was kinda piss easy the moment it dropped with maybe denathrius and stone legion Generals requiring a few wipes which is.... normal?
Was SoD and SoTFO normal really that much more difficult? I ve been playing on and off since vanilla so I have experienced all raids in normal mode and heroic and whenever I feel like it I ve dabbled in some mythic raiding as well during the times in my life where I had more time and patience. I dont really remember normal mode ever being hard and non-puggable minus the obvious terrible group outliers