STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[ellieg]

The problem is that you think this is something you can have an opinion on. It's not. I don't care how you experience it. Your experience is wrong.

Now this is a quote lol.

[Aydinx2]

Now this is a quote lol.

I like how you edited out the context to suit your needs.

It's still true though. The guy is trying to define what "difficulty" is and is using a definition that doesn't match any form of reality. Spending time on something easy is not "difficult". I don't say "showering every morning is the Dark Souls of self-care".

[ellieg]

I like how you edited out the context to suit your needs.

It's still true though. The guy is trying to define what "difficulty" is and is using a definition that doesn't match any form of reality. Spending time on something easy is not "difficult". I don't say "showering every morning is the Dark Souls of self-care".

There are different kinds of difficulty, along with varying levels of it tho. Consistency can be considered a form of difficulty.

[Aydinx2]

There are different kinds of difficulty, along with varying levels of it tho. Consistency can be considered a form of difficulty.

It really can't. It can be tiring to do a task repeatedly, but that is tiring because the task itself is slightly taxing and it builds up over time. Solo'ing ICC once a week isn't taxing.

Maybe he's getting emotionally taxed due to not getting the mount, but even then that's not "difficulty". The task itself is not difficult. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping.

But I'm not going to keep arguing linguistics with someone who signatures other peoples edited comments for clout. I already don't think very highly of you and I think more highly of my time.

[ellieg]

It really can't. It can be tiring to do a task repeatedly, but that is tiring because the task itself is slightly taxing and it builds up over time. Solo'ing ICC once a week isn't taxing.

Maybe he's getting emotionally taxed due to not getting the mount, but even then that's not "difficulty". The task itself is not difficult. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping.

Part of the definition of difficult is effort. Consistently doing something every week is effort.

Or are you implying things aren't difficult if they're optional and you can simply not do them?

How about an alcoholic not drinking for 1 full year? Its not difficult cause the task is literally just not drinking. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping

[Aydinx2]

Part of the definition of difficult is effort. Consistently doing something every week is effort.

Or are you implying things aren't difficult if they're optional and you can simply not do them?

I'm saying that he himself made it difficult for himself by doing it. But if you remember the original context of that discussion, that doesn't mean it is actually hard content for casuals to do. There is a reason "effort" and "difficult" are two different words. It can take effort to repeatedly do a task that isn't difficult because it is mentally draining to do it for so long. The same way it can be difficult to do something only once.

How about an alcoholic not drinking for 1 full year? Its not difficult cause the task is literally just not drinking. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping

I know you think this was a clever example, but as someone who knows alcoholics this is a terrible thing to say. It's not "optional" when your social life and health are literally suffering. It's difficult because a single mistake can get your life ruined or even get you killed.

Between this disgusting comment and the disrespectful edited signature I'm convinced you're just a bad person. I'm gonna stop replying to you now.

Edit: Actually, let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

[ellieg]

I'm saying that he himself made it difficult for himself by doing it. But if you remember the original context of that discussion, that doesn't mean it is actually hard content for casuals to do. There is a reason "effort" and "difficult" are two different words. It can take effort to repeatedly do a task that isn't difficult because it is mentally draining to do it for so long. The same way it can be difficult to do something only once.



I know you think this was a clever example, but as someone who knows alcoholics this is a terrible thing to say. It's not "optional" when your social life and health are literally suffering. It's difficult because a single mistake can get your life ruined or even get you killed.

Between this disgusting comment and the disrespectful edited signature I'm convinced you're just a bad person. I'm gonna stop replying to you now.

Edit: Actually, let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

Im glad my personal experience with alcoholics has helped get my point thru to you. Consistency is a form of difficulty, and so is something that is emotionally draining.

[Coldkil]

Thats my point. Blizzard rendered useless 90% of the content casuals used to do by adding cypher system with higher ilvl. The entire system is grinded out in 1 month of sub. Now for 5 out of 6 months of a patch, casuals will and do quit cause nothing else offers them rewards. They can either extend how long the 252 set takes to get, or nerf the ilvl so its worthwhile to casually do bgs, lfr, or heroics.

Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.

[Aydinx2]

Im glad my personal experience with alcoholics has helped get my point thru to you. Consistency is a form of difficulty, and so is something that is emotionally draining.

I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.

[ellieg]

Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.

Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.

So your argument is still that something being optional is factored into whether something is difficulty? And i touched a nerve and you're crying that giving up drinking is actually not optional and that's why it is difficult? Well I can attest from multiple alcoholics in my life that giving up drinking is in fact optional

[Kyriani]

Hah yeah.

I dont really get why LFR excist as it does today. It quite literally does nothing good beyond seeing the inside of a raid and the completion of a story. Its not really a fun grouping experience most of the time and I would bet players just want it over with when doing it.

LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in favor of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

So long as X amount of people engage with LFR, the bean counters will be happy. If LFR dies, so does raid content as a whole.

[crusadernero]

LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in lieu of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.

[Kyriani]

Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.

I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

[Echo of Soul]

Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too

Because that would take away from the accomplishments of those that actually make an effort and you know, play the game. Fuck em, if they can't play longer than 1 month per expansion due to gear greed they can stay unsubscribed for all I care.

[Loveliest]

That's a random thought which is wholly improvable.

The community killed the quality of the community. If the token didn't exist, there'd still be just as much boosting... you'd just have to contend with a lot more Chinese gold selling spam on top of everything else.

Pretty sure ppl would not have bought as many boosts if they had to do it illegally. It was very tempting for example to go buy a hc Sylvanas boost on TN EU for 50k gold (yes, that cheap) instead of bothering with progress with your guild. When you have everything right in front of you and there are NO downsides, not even potential ones, no risks, why not do it. Buying illegally would be a risk and at least some would be deterred.
And tbh when blizz introduced that they also started designing limited time rewards for raids that you wouldn't be able to farm later even with 1% drop chance. So you feel tempted to do it just for that. Started with Garrosh heirlooms (that was the big boom) and continued with mounts for end hc raid. After Garrosh, ppl were selling boosts for everything, remember how ppl were buying boosts for just doing a CM even untimed for that one piece of loot in wod?

[crusadernero]

I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

Same here. I do LFR once to complete the story quest and never enter it again. I'd rather skip raiding an entire tier than clear LFR regularly.

[Celement]

Not really. If anything, getting mythic ilvl is pretty easy via m+ and now we have all sorts of ways to bypass raiding. To me it seems people actually want to keep others away from loot because they don't do the same things in game.

I mean, i fully agree that reaching high skill levels and beating the hardest challenges needs to be rewarding, but ilvl is something that's completely broken and irrelevant right now as an indicator of the objectives someone has reached. Just check PvP gear for DF - when you buy it it's automatically max ilvl because it simply doesn't make sense to be otherwise.

To me this kind of players are the first very willingly to ditch any kind of group activity if max ilvl gear was rewarded from WQs for example. And if gear power is actually taken out of the equation, suddendly your ability to beat content is completely dependant on personal skills. Which will make a lot of people unable to beat ceratin encounters.

WoW need to fundamentally change from it's current model for that to work. I know a 15 is roughly on par with a heroic raiding and vastly over rewarding for its difficulty but there are still layers of difficulty in the game.

There is a reason why 11-14 keys are such a miserable experience and the ease of gearing plays into that.

[Vitinariy]

There is a reason why 11-14 keys are such a miserable experience and the ease of gearing plays into that.

Yes - bad players are the reason, but there's no game in the world that can eliminate bad players. Or, better say, there's no game that would want to do that, because they still need money from said players.

[Celement]

LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in favor of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

So long as X amount of people engage with LFR, the bean counters will be happy. If LFR dies, so does raid content as a whole.

I mean its already dead... tier lured in raiders for a few weeks but the place was abandoned quick.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes - bad players are the reason, but there's no game in the world that can eliminate bad players. Or, better say, there's no game that would want to do that, because they still need money from said players.

True but if we are to get rid of gear progression we really need to have a two tier difficulty system. One for narrative and one for progression play.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

Biggest issue with LFR is that after a few weeks it's either all pretty weak players or someone's 4th alt. Early on in this tier, it was actually really fast (especially on Tuesdays) because better players had a reason to do it.

I recall back in WoD when they added valor and only let it drop from LFR and mythic dungeons (to coerce better players to do it). I hated it at the time as a raider but it surely made the experience better for people who enjoy LFR.

Hard to find a solution to this. This tier seemed like the best but you can't really ask players to do it forever.