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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Thats my point. Blizzard rendered useless 90% of the content casuals used to do by adding cypher system with higher ilvl. The entire system is grinded out in 1 month of sub. Now for 5 out of 6 months of a patch, casuals will and do quit cause nothing else offers them rewards. They can either extend how long the 252 set takes to get, or nerf the ilvl so its worthwhile to casually do bgs, lfr, or heroics.
    Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

    The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

    I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

    One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Im glad my personal experience with alcoholics has helped get my point thru to you. Consistency is a form of difficulty, and so is something that is emotionally draining.
    I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

    The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

    I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

    One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.
    Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.
    So your argument is still that something being optional is factored into whether something is difficulty? And i touched a nerve and you're crying that giving up drinking is actually not optional and that's why it is difficult? Well I can attest from multiple alcoholics in my life that giving up drinking is in fact optional

  4. #904
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Hah yeah.

    I dont really get why LFR excist as it does today. It quite literally does nothing good beyond seeing the inside of a raid and the completion of a story. Its not really a fun grouping experience most of the time and I would bet players just want it over with when doing it.
    LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in favor of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

    And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

    So long as X amount of people engage with LFR, the bean counters will be happy. If LFR dies, so does raid content as a whole.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2022-05-18 at 12:41 PM.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in lieu of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

    And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.
    Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

    And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

    It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.

  6. #906
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

    And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

    It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.
    I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too
    Because that would take away from the accomplishments of those that actually make an effort and you know, play the game. Fuck em, if they can't play longer than 1 month per expansion due to gear greed they can stay unsubscribed for all I care.

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That's a random thought which is wholly improvable.

    The community killed the quality of the community. If the token didn't exist, there'd still be just as much boosting... you'd just have to contend with a lot more Chinese gold selling spam on top of everything else.
    Pretty sure ppl would not have bought as many boosts if they had to do it illegally. It was very tempting for example to go buy a hc Sylvanas boost on TN EU for 50k gold (yes, that cheap) instead of bothering with progress with your guild. When you have everything right in front of you and there are NO downsides, not even potential ones, no risks, why not do it. Buying illegally would be a risk and at least some would be deterred.
    And tbh when blizz introduced that they also started designing limited time rewards for raids that you wouldn't be able to farm later even with 1% drop chance. So you feel tempted to do it just for that. Started with Garrosh heirlooms (that was the big boom) and continued with mounts for end hc raid. After Garrosh, ppl were selling boosts for everything, remember how ppl were buying boosts for just doing a CM even untimed for that one piece of loot in wod?

  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.
    Same here. I do LFR once to complete the story quest and never enter it again. I'd rather skip raiding an entire tier than clear LFR regularly.

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Not really. If anything, getting mythic ilvl is pretty easy via m+ and now we have all sorts of ways to bypass raiding. To me it seems people actually want to keep others away from loot because they don't do the same things in game.

    I mean, i fully agree that reaching high skill levels and beating the hardest challenges needs to be rewarding, but ilvl is something that's completely broken and irrelevant right now as an indicator of the objectives someone has reached. Just check PvP gear for DF - when you buy it it's automatically max ilvl because it simply doesn't make sense to be otherwise.

    To me this kind of players are the first very willingly to ditch any kind of group activity if max ilvl gear was rewarded from WQs for example. And if gear power is actually taken out of the equation, suddendly your ability to beat content is completely dependant on personal skills. Which will make a lot of people unable to beat ceratin encounters.
    WoW need to fundamentally change from it's current model for that to work. I know a 15 is roughly on par with a heroic raiding and vastly over rewarding for its difficulty but there are still layers of difficulty in the game.

    There is a reason why 11-14 keys are such a miserable experience and the ease of gearing plays into that.

  11. #911
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    There is a reason why 11-14 keys are such a miserable experience and the ease of gearing plays into that.
    Yes - bad players are the reason, but there's no game in the world that can eliminate bad players. Or, better say, there's no game that would want to do that, because they still need money from said players.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in favor of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

    And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

    So long as X amount of people engage with LFR, the bean counters will be happy. If LFR dies, so does raid content as a whole.
    I mean its already dead... tier lured in raiders for a few weeks but the place was abandoned quick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitinariy View Post
    Yes - bad players are the reason, but there's no game in the world that can eliminate bad players. Or, better say, there's no game that would want to do that, because they still need money from said players.
    True but if we are to get rid of gear progression we really need to have a two tier difficulty system. One for narrative and one for progression play.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.
    Biggest issue with LFR is that after a few weeks it's either all pretty weak players or someone's 4th alt. Early on in this tier, it was actually really fast (especially on Tuesdays) because better players had a reason to do it.

    I recall back in WoD when they added valor and only let it drop from LFR and mythic dungeons (to coerce better players to do it). I hated it at the time as a raider but it surely made the experience better for people who enjoy LFR.

    Hard to find a solution to this. This tier seemed like the best but you can't really ask players to do it forever.

  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too
    Yes and no. For sure people leaving is due to multiple factors. But one of them is the fact that in the last expansion the whole focus of the game was to keep people online via mandatory chores, that weren't fun but you had to do to stay on par.

    It's fun that a 3/4 months cycle is fine for you - m+ is the least timegated content wow has, you can literally spam them as much as you like and pugging is very easy (in terms of accessibility, not success). I would be fine with a 3/4 months cycle of atvthe emd of it given enough commitement fron players you could get to ilvl cap whatver content you did, even world quests.

    And yes. Content is really umbalanced in terms of rewards. World content is unrewarding, casual content is neglected, m+ give much better rewards for easier content compared to raids (both quality and quantity). Reason why i'm in favour of a ilvl cap at 15s/hc woth world content catching up to that later during the tier (maybe when the .5 hits).

    That would make also obsolete stupid catchup systems that need to be implemented evey patch because people have no way to get there without them.

    My wet dream would be to have mythic raids work like the mage tower. Always scale you down, and it's always a challenge. If people can't farm them the expansion after, is not a problem - make those reward count.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Pretty sure ppl would not have bought as many boosts if they had to do it illegally. It was very tempting for example to go buy a hc Sylvanas boost on TN EU for 50k gold (yes, that cheap) instead of bothering with progress with your guild. When you have everything right in front of you and there are NO downsides, not even potential ones, no risks, why not do it. Buying illegally would be a risk and at least some would be deterred.
    And tbh when blizz introduced that they also started designing limited time rewards for raids that you wouldn't be able to farm later even with 1% drop chance. So you feel tempted to do it just for that. Started with Garrosh heirlooms (that was the big boom) and continued with mounts for end hc raid. After Garrosh, ppl were selling boosts for everything, remember how ppl were buying boosts for just doing a CM even untimed for that one piece of loot in wod?
    Again, this whole argument hinges on this presumption that boosts are only ever paid for by people who buy tokens (or previously bought Chinese gold). It completely bypasses the very real fact that new gold is generated all the time and there are various ways for players to generate their own wealth. I won't deny it happens but I'm disinclined to believe the commonly presented argument that the token alone is what has caused boosting in this game to become as prevalent as it is.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Again, this whole argument hinges on this presumption that boosts are only ever paid for by people who buy tokens (or previously bought Chinese gold). It completely bypasses the very real fact that new gold is generated all the time and there are various ways for players to generate their own wealth. I won't deny it happens but I'm disinclined to believe the commonly presented argument that the token alone is what has caused boosting in this game to become as prevalent as it is.
    I highly doubt that the people that boost who earn their own gold is enough to sustain the boosting 'industry'.
    I've played with to many people who had trouble paying for even just their repair bills for me to believe that.

    Those who are 'wealthy' in WoW are a tiny tiny minority.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Again, this whole argument hinges on this presumption that boosts are only ever paid for by people who buy tokens (or previously bought Chinese gold).
    That part there is why i think your reasoning is suspect. Your average Joe player would never be stupid enough to risk their account by buying from some dodgey gold seller site imho. They can buy all the gold they want from Blizzard in total saftey and legally. No risk with a click of a button.

  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    That part there is why i think your reasoning is suspect. Your average Joe player would never be stupid enough to risk their account by buying from some dodgey gold seller site imho. They can buy all the gold they want from Blizzard in total saftey and legally. No risk with a click of a button.
    From other players, not blizzard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Those who are 'wealthy' in WoW are a tiny tiny minority.
    And those who consistently buy boosts are a tiny minority, too. People just see a bunch of advertising for it and assume that "everybody" must be doing it.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    From other players, not blizzard.
    No Blizzard buy gold off players and then sell it to other players for more than they bought it for.

    It's like buying milk from the store. If the store didn't buy the milk from the farmer you would have a real hard time buying that milk.

    I'm the end it doesn't matter. You can buy gold directly from the Blizzard store for real money and then buy boosts which makes WoW one of the most P2W games on the market.

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