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  1. #941
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
    "Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

    It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.
    You're right. On another thread people pointed out the difference in outcomes depending on the gear one has, mythic raiding gear was sooo far ahead when you SIM it. Big mistake!

  2. #942
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this
    What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.
    Yes, and? No one is denying this.

    What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

    It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this. You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.
    Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

    Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

    Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.
    How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
    Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.



    Yes, and? No one is denying this.

    What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

    It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.
    can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

    Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

    Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.
    Yes indeed. But in the end, Blizzard is probably raking in huge money from these tokens. Cant be from subs so.

  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    You can buy gold directly from the Blizzard store for real money and then buy boosts which makes WoW one of the most P2W games on the market.
    Even if WoW was P2W (it is objectively not), this would still be a stupid statement.
    If you could buy a Mythic Jailer kill with gauranteed gear, it would still not be anywhere near as P2W as other games on the market.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.
    What can you win in WoW by buying a token? A boost? You don't "win" anything by killing a raid boss, unless you're doing Mythic Jailer and are racing for world first. The loot drops aren't even guaranteed.

    And people can see how many times you've killed it. If you have 0 normal kills and have heroic kills, they know you got boosted. Especially if there are no logs anywhere. If anything boosting is a detriment in this case because guilds don't take people who need boosts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
    Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?
    LFR is a slog because mechanics have gotten more complex with every expansion and what used to be a fun cakewalk is far less so today. LFR is queued content with strangers and little coordination. It's 2 to 3 attempts if I'm lucky. If I am not, some bosses can be 5 or more attempts.

    As easy as you think LFR is, it's not easy enough for me to waste my time in a queue for it, and then waste more of my time wiping on bosses I know all the mechanics to (I've full cleared the raid on normal and up to Anduin on heroic), all for rewards that are only valuable for mog unlocks... if I get anything at all. My alts will kill the jailer on LFR to finish the story quest and that will be all they ever see of the inside of the raid because it's not worth the time and frustration.

    And I play the game to be entertained... not challenged. When WoW fails to entertain me, I unsub. Despite clearing sepulcher, I don't do real raiding anymore. I raided this tier to help out my guild that was shorthanded due to many not returning for 9.2. And brain dead button mashing is exactly what I want from LFR. If I want to do real raiding I can always go with my guild.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.
    You would think they would do some of that content then no?

    It's a story as old as the game itself. A player whines they need more content and when you check their profile it's always 0 lfr, no mythics even 2s, no isles, no torghast, no anything..

    I don't know what fun engaging repeatable content they want but I doubt it can ever exist at this point. They would be better off finding another game that offers it.

    WoW has added a ton of content in a decade but if nothing appeals to you now it's weird you are staying here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
    "Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

    It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.
    See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

    It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.

  9. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

    It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.
    Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

    Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

    Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.
    Yes pretty much. Battlegrounds cap out slightly lower but the keyword is slightly never mind the conquest gear you will slowly get.

    Mythic 0 is the heroic you are comparing to with wrath. Hell with Weekly events you can get a heroic ilv set together passively rather quickly.

    Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

    Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.
    Well, systems like that was in the game when wow had millions of players. Non of us are probably correct here, but its obvious that the endgame activites and how you gear/progress your character(s) isnt really good.

    Also, it really doesnt matter. We all do the same content. We all gotta replace the gear anyway. Have fun with it, unsub when bored.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?
    I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

    Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.
    Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

    You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.
    The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

    You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

    - - - Updated - - -



    The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me
    Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em
    I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now
    I don't really care. The second best gear back then was too much for casuals, the third best gear now is still too much. They should get LFR gear at most. So yeah it's better that they get worse gear now but not good enough.

  17. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?
    Yes. Absolutely. Because I don't operate using the principles of conspiracy theory thinking. I look at facts, I look at logic, I look at reason. I apply critical thinking to assess how the facts apply to the proposition, and frankly, your proposition is sorely lacking in any of this.

    At most maybe 10% of the playerbase can be reliant on tokens for gold - that's entirely a constraint imposed by the design of tokens to be reliant on another player selling the gold. The rest of us make our gold the normal way, with some even making extra to supply the token sellers.

    So there is simply no logical, rational or reasonable argument to be made that tokens have any effect whatsoever on the determination of the prices of these things, let alone a significant/meaningful one. It's just plain conspiracy theory logic.

    If you look at legendary mats, for example: The cost is completely appropriate given the ease with which one can make gold in the game. If you do the math and consider how much gold you should be making simply as a by-product of doing the things you should already be doing in the game, then it's pretty much trivial to acquire the amount of gold you need for those legendaries within the timescales you have in which to do so.

    Not to mention that it's patently absurd to argue that we are forced to resort to tokens to be able to afford such things, because even with tokens, someone still has to make that gold in order to be selling it to you in the first place. If the amount of gold required to buy legendaries was anywhere near as difficult or time-consuming as people like you would like to pretend (that we have to resort to tokens), then no-one would be selling their gold for a paltry $13 worth of Blizzard balance.

    Sorry, but if someone is resorting to tokens to get gold, that has absolutely fuck-all to do with need, and everything to do with just being too lazy to bother with doing the bare minimum expected of one in this game. And if someone really wants to give their money to another player who is prepared to do that for them, then I am fine with it. It's a completely consensual transaction in which both parties are getting what they want without any form of coercion that has nothing to do with me, you or anyone else other than the two of them.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2022-05-19 at 02:40 PM.

  18. #958
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.
    I have no idea what what point it is you are trying to make beyond trying to be argumentative.

  19. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That has absolutely nothing to do with the argument he is making, which is: If tokens disappeared, he would start providing boosts. That in turn would increase competition among boosters, which would bring the price down and making boosting accessible to more players.

    You see, this is the problem with the "tokens cause boosts hurr-durr" crowd. They don't bother applying to critical thinking to how removing the token would actually affect the boosting situation. They just cherry pick one aspect of it.

    Here is another argument you won't see these guys making: Without tokens, all those people who sell their gold to buy them would suddenly have a lot more gold lying around to spend on buying things like boosts.

    Because every token seller needs a buyer, all that tokens do is move gold around. The economy in the game though remains a closed system. It isn't really affected. It's just who is doing what that changes.
    Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.
    When you play 11 toons and grind out +20s on all of them, it is. >_>;

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