STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Malania]

You want to clear current content, you want that 0.01% title. I'm sorry mate but you gotta:



Also you're being very generalist about Wrath and being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point.

Wraths first raid was a dungeon that had been cleared before and knowledge was freely available and as then and just as now. Hard modes were entirely optional. You didn't do Firefighter or 0 lights or Sarg+3 without being at the top end of the raiding or over gearing them the following tier.

Then, as now; Work b*tch if you really want to clear them. The phrase get gud' is relevant here.

[ellieg]

Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
"Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.

Thats fine, just pointing out that it is in fact about the ilvl of the gear rewarded and they should stop pretending its not.

[crusadernero]

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

If the gold is generated, made from alchemy or stolen from Jeff Kaplans grandmother it does not matter. You pay real money to Blizzard, you end up with gold in game, that's all that matters.

Theres no point debating them about this. They refuse to understand and are hellbendt that its a WHOLE different thing. Even though the effect is just the same. Smart move by Blizzard though,now they will have defenders of it everywhere.

[Raelbo]

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

OF. COURSE. IT. MATTERS.

If the gold is generated, made from alchemy or stolen from Jeff Kaplans grandmother it does not matter. You pay real money to Blizzard, you end up with gold in game, that's all that matters.

To the individual who buys the gold, sure, it doesn't matter where it comes from - at least not beyond than the fact that it determines how much they are paying for it.

But in terms of how it affects other players, the WoW economy, boosting, whether or not WoW is P2W (hint, it's absolutely NOT, and people who think it is are just ignorant) etc (ie everything that actually matters) - where it comes from matters a great deal.

- - - Updated - - -

They refuse to understand and are hellbendt that its a WHOLE different thing. Even though the effect is just the same.

Except the effect is not the same.

[Soikona]

All you're saying is that there are more pieces of content for players to boost (or be boosted in), not that the demand for boosting has suddenly skyrocketed. Naturally this will have the knock-on effect of making it seem like boosting is more prevalent but I honestly don't think it's much different now than it was before the token. I also don't think that removing the token will have any impact on the game outside of making it more difficult for players who aren't currently boosting to afford anything. (Almost prohibitively so, given the cost of things like Legendary base items right now.)

- - - Updated - - -



I know that I'm not currently boosting (though I definitely could) because I'd rather buy a token than get "paid" to play the game. If the token didn't exist, I would be boosting because it'd be the only way for me to afford the raid mats I use when I run keys. (Not a fan of the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create a bunch of farming alts" or the "just play the AH" approach to wealth creation in this game.) Since removing the token does nothing to cease the demand for boosting, it'd just shove more players like me into the boosting role out of necessity... thereby further eroding whatever imaginary benefit you think not having the token around presents.

You don’t need to boost to afford raid mats. I literally survive each tier with just 100k gold, and sometimes less.

[crusadernero]

- - - Updated - - -



Except the effect is not the same.

Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this. You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.

[Raelbo]

You don’t need to boost to afford raid mats. I literally survive each tier with just 100k gold, and sometimes less.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the argument he is making, which is: If tokens disappeared, he would start providing boosts. That in turn would increase competition among boosters, which would bring the price down and making boosting accessible to more players.

You see, this is the problem with the "tokens cause boosts hurr-durr" crowd. They don't bother applying to critical thinking to how removing the token would actually affect the boosting situation. They just cherry pick one aspect of it.

Here is another argument you won't see these guys making: Without tokens, all those people who sell their gold to buy them would suddenly have a lot more gold lying around to spend on buying things like boosts.

Because every token seller needs a buyer, all that tokens do is move gold around. The economy in the game though remains a closed system. It isn't really affected. It's just who is doing what that changes.

[conkrete]

Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
"Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.

You're right. On another thread people pointed out the difference in outcomes depending on the gear one has, mythic raiding gear was sooo far ahead when you SIM it. Big mistake!

[Raelbo]

Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this

What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.

You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.

Yes, and? No one is denying this.

What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.

[Echo of Soul]

Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this. You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.

Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.

[Aydinx2]

I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?

[crusadernero]

What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.



Yes, and? No one is denying this.

What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.

can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?

- - - Updated - - -

Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.

Yes indeed. But in the end, Blizzard is probably raking in huge money from these tokens. Cant be from subs so.

[Aydinx2]

You can buy gold directly from the Blizzard store for real money and then buy boosts which makes WoW one of the most P2W games on the market.

Even if WoW was P2W (it is objectively not), this would still be a stupid statement.
If you could buy a Mythic Jailer kill with gauranteed gear, it would still not be anywhere near as P2W as other games on the market.

- - - Updated - - -

as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.

What can you win in WoW by buying a token? A boost? You don't "win" anything by killing a raid boss, unless you're doing Mythic Jailer and are racing for world first. The loot drops aren't even guaranteed.

And people can see how many times you've killed it. If you have 0 normal kills and have heroic kills, they know you got boosted. Especially if there are no logs anywhere. If anything boosting is a detriment in this case because guilds don't take people who need boosts.

[Kyriani]

How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?

LFR is a slog because mechanics have gotten more complex with every expansion and what used to be a fun cakewalk is far less so today. LFR is queued content with strangers and little coordination. It's 2 to 3 attempts if I'm lucky. If I am not, some bosses can be 5 or more attempts.

As easy as you think LFR is, it's not easy enough for me to waste my time in a queue for it, and then waste more of my time wiping on bosses I know all the mechanics to (I've full cleared the raid on normal and up to Anduin on heroic), all for rewards that are only valuable for mog unlocks... if I get anything at all. My alts will kill the jailer on LFR to finish the story quest and that will be all they ever see of the inside of the raid because it's not worth the time and frustration.

And I play the game to be entertained... not challenged. When WoW fails to entertain me, I unsub. Despite clearing sepulcher, I don't do real raiding anymore. I raided this tier to help out my guild that was shorthanded due to many not returning for 9.2. And brain dead button mashing is exactly what I want from LFR. If I want to do real raiding I can always go with my guild.

[Celement]

I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.

You would think they would do some of that content then no?

It's a story as old as the game itself. A player whines they need more content and when you check their profile it's always 0 lfr, no mythics even 2s, no isles, no torghast, no anything..

I don't know what fun engaging repeatable content they want but I doubt it can ever exist at this point. They would be better off finding another game that offers it.

WoW has added a ton of content in a decade but if nothing appeals to you now it's weird you are staying here.

- - - Updated - - -

Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
"Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.

See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.

[Echo of Soul]

See here is the thing... ZM offers the exact same thing... normal raid gear ( arguably it's far more rewarding since it covers almost every slot) and tier.

It really is just envious whining at this point from entitled twats wanting the entire games progression system torn down so they can get goodies.

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

[Celement]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Yes pretty much. Battlegrounds cap out slightly lower but the keyword is slightly never mind the conquest gear you will slowly get.

Mythic 0 is the heroic you are comparing to with wrath. Hell with Weekly events you can get a heroic ilv set together passively rather quickly.

Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?

[crusadernero]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Well, systems like that was in the game when wow had millions of players. Non of us are probably correct here, but its obvious that the endgame activites and how you gear/progress your character(s) isnt really good.

Also, it really doesnt matter. We all do the same content. We all gotta replace the gear anyway. Have fun with it, unsub when bored.

[Echo of Soul]

Why is normal raid gear subsidized with heroic from events garbage? How entitled and whiny are you?

I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

[ellieg]

Oh so you can do heroic dungeons, random battlegrounds etc for ZM gear? Anyway the old valor system awarded the second best gear in the game and normal raid gear is pretty much absolute garbage so I don't know why anyone would work their ass off for garbage.

Casuals don't deserve good gear so it's very appropriate to me that they'd be awarded garbage.

Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

- - - Updated - - -

I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.

The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me