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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Valor gear awarded 4 pieces of the 2nd best gear. Today, u get 2 291s which are bis. You get weeklys for 265 every 8 weeks which would fill the role of that emblem of frost gear ilvl. It took roughly 5 weeks to get enough badges from doing the daily heroic EVERY SINGLE DAY to buy one of those pieces. The emblem of valor was 245 ilvl. You could buy 5 pieces with that. Zm 252 cypher gear is higher relative ilvl than that and fills all slots.

    You get more gear now than you did back then. But instead of doing a 15 min queued dungeon once per day, every day, you get a whole zone

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    The trash normal gear as u call it, is better overall then the gear u got in wrath. I can break down the exact pieces and ilvl if u don't believe me
    Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em
    I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now
    I don't really care. The second best gear back then was too much for casuals, the third best gear now is still too much. They should get LFR gear at most. So yeah it's better that they get worse gear now but not good enough.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?
    Yes. Absolutely. Because I don't operate using the principles of conspiracy theory thinking. I look at facts, I look at logic, I look at reason. I apply critical thinking to assess how the facts apply to the proposition, and frankly, your proposition is sorely lacking in any of this.

    At most maybe 10% of the playerbase can be reliant on tokens for gold - that's entirely a constraint imposed by the design of tokens to be reliant on another player selling the gold. The rest of us make our gold the normal way, with some even making extra to supply the token sellers.

    So there is simply no logical, rational or reasonable argument to be made that tokens have any effect whatsoever on the determination of the prices of these things, let alone a significant/meaningful one. It's just plain conspiracy theory logic.

    If you look at legendary mats, for example: The cost is completely appropriate given the ease with which one can make gold in the game. If you do the math and consider how much gold you should be making simply as a by-product of doing the things you should already be doing in the game, then it's pretty much trivial to acquire the amount of gold you need for those legendaries within the timescales you have in which to do so.

    Not to mention that it's patently absurd to argue that we are forced to resort to tokens to be able to afford such things, because even with tokens, someone still has to make that gold in order to be selling it to you in the first place. If the amount of gold required to buy legendaries was anywhere near as difficult or time-consuming as people like you would like to pretend (that we have to resort to tokens), then no-one would be selling their gold for a paltry $13 worth of Blizzard balance.

    Sorry, but if someone is resorting to tokens to get gold, that has absolutely fuck-all to do with need, and everything to do with just being too lazy to bother with doing the bare minimum expected of one in this game. And if someone really wants to give their money to another player who is prepared to do that for them, then I am fine with it. It's a completely consensual transaction in which both parties are getting what they want without any form of coercion that has nothing to do with me, you or anyone else other than the two of them.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2022-05-19 at 02:40 PM.

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I don't care one bit, I get mythic quality gear. I wouldn't get caught dead in normal trash gear, that's for the casuals, it's completely useless and frankly what they deserve.
    I have no idea what what point it is you are trying to make beyond trying to be argumentative.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That has absolutely nothing to do with the argument he is making, which is: If tokens disappeared, he would start providing boosts. That in turn would increase competition among boosters, which would bring the price down and making boosting accessible to more players.

    You see, this is the problem with the "tokens cause boosts hurr-durr" crowd. They don't bother applying to critical thinking to how removing the token would actually affect the boosting situation. They just cherry pick one aspect of it.

    Here is another argument you won't see these guys making: Without tokens, all those people who sell their gold to buy them would suddenly have a lot more gold lying around to spend on buying things like boosts.

    Because every token seller needs a buyer, all that tokens do is move gold around. The economy in the game though remains a closed system. It isn't really affected. It's just who is doing what that changes.
    Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.
    When you play 11 toons and grind out +20s on all of them, it is. >_>;

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.
    Holy moly. 34,730 posts. Acc has been around since 2008, so 14 years. Let's do some basic arithmetic shall we.

    14x 365.25 days = 5,113.5 days, rounded to 5,114 days.

    34,730 posts / 5,114 days = 6.79 posts per day, rounded to 7 posts per day.

    You have been posting, on average, 7 posts per day on MMO-Champion, for FOURTEEN YEARS, every day. Operative words being "on average" of course, since some days you might've posted 0 posts, other days you might've posted 50 posts. Still though. 7 posts per day, for 14 years, non-stop?

    If you spent HALF, nay, a QUARTER, nay, a SIXTEENTH of that time playing the game we all love instead of posting on MMO-C, you'd be much, much farther than where you currently are. Holy fucking shit. 7 posts a day for 14 years. Damn that's alot.

  9. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yes. Absolutely. Because I don't operate using the principles of conspiracy theory thinking. I look at facts, I look at logic, I look at reason. I apply critical thinking to assess how the facts apply to the proposition, and frankly, your proposition is sorely lacking in any of this.

    At most maybe 10% of the playerbase can be reliant on tokens for gold - that's entirely a constraint imposed by the design of tokens to be reliant on another player selling the gold. The rest of us make our gold the normal way, with some even making extra to supply the token sellers.

    So there is simply no logical, rational or reasonable argument to be made that tokens have any effect whatsoever on the determination of the prices of these things, let alone a significant/meaningful one. It's just plain conspiracy theory logic.

    If you look at legendary mats, for example: The cost is completely appropriate given the ease with which one can make gold in the game. If you do the math and consider how much gold you should be making simply as a by-product of doing the things you should already be doing in the game, then it's pretty much trivial to acquire the amount of gold you need for those legendaries within the timescales you have in which to do so.

    Not to mention that it's patently absurd to argue that we are forced to resort to tokens to be able to afford such things, because even with tokens, someone still has to make that gold in order to be selling it to you in the first place. If the amount of gold required to buy legendaries was anywhere near as difficult or time-consuming as people like you would like to pretend (that we have to resort to tokens), then no-one would be selling their gold for a paltry $13 worth of Blizzard balance.

    Sorry, but if someone is resorting to tokens to get gold, that has absolutely fuck-all to do with need, and everything to do with just being too lazy to bother with doing the bare minimum expected of one in this game. And if someone really wants to give their money to another player who is prepared to do that for them, then I am fine with it. It's a completely consensual transaction in which both parties are getting what they want without any form of coercion that has nothing to do with me, you or anyone else other than the two of them.
    Mentions basis on facts but is all on assumptions as there is no data. Great “critical thinking”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    When you play 11 toons and grind out +20s on all of them, it is. >_>;
    Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Valor gear awarded the second best gear in the game which was WAY more than casual scrubs deserve. Currently they have access to the third best gear in the game which is complete garbage and more in line with what they deserve. Fuck em
    I dont understand this "...casual scrubs deserve"

    Do you understand that a real casual don't care about what ilvl his gear is? They just want some progress, like any RPG.

    Also they dont care about the gear you have mr professional. Only you care about that. And making sure you got better than anyone else. Its all in your head. Alone.

    All the other "scrub casuals" are not really casuals.

    I'm a real casual and still think the game is designed for low standards players. The game stinks for a casual player that played this game for many years and expansions.

    Shitty world quests are not content for a casual. Neither the same 8 small dungeons for 2 years straight.

    I believe the term casual these days is kinda wrong.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post

    I believe the term casual these days is kinda wrong.
    Language changes with time. The term casual prior only meant time commitment. But casual has other meanings as well. Leisure is one of the things that's included in the definition.

  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.
    No shit, Sherlock. I never implied it wasn't. But at some point buying a token becomes vastly more efficient (and wayyyyyy less boring) than "doing dailies" on 11 toons.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Mentions basis on facts but is all on assumptions as there is no data. Great “critical thinking”.
    Cool. How about you tell me even one bad assumption I made and how it undermines my argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Not really, just do what you do on one toon with the 11. Dailies at most take 15 min. If you wanna maintain 11 alts then that’s your problem.
    Still you miss the point. It does not matter whether there are possible alternatives for him to make the gold, or whether he actually needs that much. He has said that the removal tokens would be a motivation for him to resort to boosting in order to make gold. I don't even know how you can try and argue with someone about what they say they will do....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Yes it does. I don’t do boosts, just occasional dailies and I do 3 day mythic raiding with a few keys for the vault. It’s not needed.
    How about reading what I say and answering that?

    You keep trying to win against an argument that no one is making. That's called strawmanning and it tells us that you lack a proper argument. So, again: It does not matter whether it is needed or not. He has said that he would rather spend money on a token than do the stuff in game that makes him gold. He has said he would rather boost other players for gold than do the stuff in game that makes him gold. And he has said that if the token is removed, he will start boosting. These are not things you can refute.

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
    Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?
    My personal experience was that it wasn't LFR, in particular, that was a "slog". It's been the newer raids, in general. The last time I enjoyed a WoW raid at all was Nighthold, and even that one was right on the edge of what is enjoyable, to me. I can't put my finger on what they're doing that I don't like, but the raids are just no fun now.

  15. #975
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Language changes with time. The term casual prior only meant time commitment. But casual has other meanings as well. Leisure is one of the things that's included in the definition.
    It is about commitment, just not time commitment. If you're dating a girl casually you might see her all the time but you're not super serious about the relationship, you're not putting the extra effort in that you would with potential spouse and as soon as she starts demanding that you take the relationship more serious you could potentially bail.

    Playing WoW casually is very similar. You may play it a lot but you're not going to go the extra mile. You're not manually putting together groups with the intention of beating the hardest content for the best gear. As soon as the game or its players start nagging you about improving your game, installing voice comms software, simming your character or become straight up toxic towards you for playing the game in the relaxing way that you play it you could potentially just quit.

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Language changes with time. The term casual prior only meant time commitment. But casual has other meanings as well. Leisure is one of the things that's included in the definition.
    That change was defined by who? Is there any authority that I dont know about?

    So... Today we got casuals, scrubs casuals, stupid casuals and loser casuals?
    Because thats what I see players calling a casual every day in this forum.

    Stop the BS.

    There are still casuals. I dont care if players that play 2 or 3 hours a day, that still cant commit to more "serious" play or just lack the skills to join a more hardcore crowd, call themselfs casuals. Makes them feel better.
    Doesnt mean they are casuals.

    We are not what we say we are, we are what we do in practice.

  17. #977
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Holy moly. 34,730 posts. Acc has been around since 2008, so 14 years. Let's do some basic arithmetic shall we.

    14x 365.25 days = 5,113.5 days, rounded to 5,114 days.

    34,730 posts / 5,114 days = 6.79 posts per day, rounded to 7 posts per day.

    You have been posting, on average, 7 posts per day on MMO-Champion, for FOURTEEN YEARS, every day. Operative words being "on average" of course, since some days you might've posted 0 posts, other days you might've posted 50 posts. Still though. 7 posts per day, for 14 years, non-stop?

    If you spent HALF, nay, a QUARTER, nay, a SIXTEENTH of that time playing the game we all love instead of posting on MMO-C, you'd be much, much farther than where you currently are. Holy fucking shit. 7 posts a day for 14 years. Damn that's alot.
    I would definitely upvote this if such a thing were possible
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  18. #978
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.
    I play about 1,5 hours a day atm, most of that time spend in M+. That is casual for sure. Unless of course you consider "casual" somehow based on skill or willingness to engage in harder content. Which it is not. It has always been based on time spend playing. Hardcore people spending many hours every day while casuals just log in a for a bit.

    But as I said in the duplicate thread of this one, the word "casual" is misapproproated by people to demand getting things they do not want to work for.

    "Casual" is now always the thing that the specific person feels it is. "Casuals" don't raid, "Casuals" don't do dungeons, "Casuals" only farm herbs, so you better include Herbalism content or 96% of the game population will leave!!!

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I play about 1,5 hours a day atm, most of that time spend in M+.
    So you log in on a literal daily basis and probably have a group already lined up (because it takes forever to find a group and would eat into your 1.5) and you consider this casual?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So you log in on a literal daily basis and probably have a group already lined up (because it takes forever to find a group and would eat into your 1.5) and you consider this casual?
    Yes, I have a guild with friends. Is this now something special in this MMO? Are casuals somehow prevented from joining guilds too?

    So to summarize, Casuals cannot:

    Raid
    Run Dungeons
    Join Guilds
    Have friends to run keys

    Hard life. Frankly, I would not play this game if I couldn't do that. Not sure why you are still doing it, hoping that for some reason everything changes.

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