STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[ellieg]

I’ll make this simple. Max gear should be obtainable within weeks of even casual play. If you want to narrow it down I would say 4-5 or so max. Harder content should be available to everyone who wants to try it within a reasonable time frame like I said.

If you truly believe everyone would quit because they had max item level gear then I’d love to point you to either

A. Games that do exactly what I’m saying and have great retention rates

And

B. Points in wow where gear was handed to everyone had the largest player counts and retention rates it had to offer.

When the gear is locked behind these massive time barriers you know what happens to players who are more casual? They don’t play it at all. Hence why wow has been heading into the direction it has been since they started making it less respectful of your time.

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I said a week



It’s physically impossible to clear mythic raids in normal gear no matter how good you are, what on earth are you even smoking. World first races literally rely on raid members getting MORE gear in order to clear it for the first time and those are the best of the best. What you just said was completely ludicrous.

The highest ilvl pieces are available day one. Getting full 16 slots would take some time and unless you are 2400 in pvp, and near full clearing mythic, it's not gonna happen in the first month.

Harder content is available instantly to casuals with the exception of mythic due to the guild requirement. If you got in a guild tho and proved to them u are good enough, u cld raid the first day of release with them.

As for your 2 points, there have been multiple points in this game where patches last too long and everyone gets full geared. You see a huge decline in players. Happened a lot in tbc and wrath.

Fully decked our gear has never been awarded to everyone. Never. If you are referring to wrath, the badges took months to acquire and you could only buy 4-5 pieces with it. Not anywhere near full gear. And the ilvl of it in wrath was that of the normal raid, not the 25 man heroic raid.

Casuals are the best geared now than they have ever been. Theres so much data to support that. So if you're gonna use current population statistics, its proving the opposite of your theory.

[Karawaka]

I’ll make this simple. Max gear should be obtainable within weeks of even casual play. If you want to narrow it down I would say 4-5 or so max. Harder content should be available to everyone who wants to try it within a reasonable time frame like I said.

If you truly believe everyone would quit because they had max item level gear then I’d love to point you to either

A. Games that do exactly what I’m saying and have great retention rates

And

B. Points in wow where gear was handed to everyone had the largest player counts and retention rates it had to offer.

When the gear is locked behind these massive time barriers you know what happens to players who are more casual? They don’t play it at all. Hence why wow has been heading into the direction it has been since they started making it less respectful of your time.

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I said a week



It’s physically impossible to clear mythic raids in normal gear no matter how good you are, what on earth are you even smoking. World first races literally rely on raid members getting MORE gear in order to clear it for the first time and those are the best of the best. What you just said was completely ludicrous.

My mistake on time, I misread. Maybe 6 or 7 hours a week then.

For gearing, wow has M+. You can clear a 15 in half hour to hour, depending on group. Its doable in 250 gear. That gets you a 278 every week. The dungeon gear itself is 262. With just a few weeks of that you'll be plenty geared enough for mythic raiding

[Syncr]

As for your 2 points, there have been multiple points in this game where patches last too long and everyone gets full geared. You see a huge decline in players. Happened a lot in tbc and wrath.

I can literally prove this wrong. Anyone who can look up subs numbers and knows how to read earnings calls can prove this wrong. Stop saying nonsense and just crossing your fingers and hoping it’s true. It’s not.

Fully decked our gear has never been awarded to everyone. Never. If you are referring to wrath, the badges took months to acquire and you could only buy 4-5 pieces with it. Not anywhere near full gear. And the ilvl of it in wrath was that of the normal raid, not the 25 man heroic raid.

Casuals are the best geared now than they have ever been. Theres so much data to support that. So if you're gonna use current population statistics, its proving the opposite of your theory.

Let me see this data then. Please let’s see it

[Jmurrs]

I’ll make this simple. Max gear should be obtainable within weeks of even casual play. If you want to narrow it down I would say 4-5 or so max. Harder content should be available to everyone who wants to try it within a reasonable time frame like I said.

If you truly believe everyone would quit because they had max item level gear then I’d love to point you to either

A. Games that do exactly what I’m saying and have great retention rates

And

B. Points in wow where gear was handed to everyone had the largest player counts and retention rates it had to offer.

When the gear is locked behind these massive time barriers you know what happens to players who are more casual? They don’t play it at all. Hence why wow has been heading into the direction it has been since they started making it less respectful of your time.

- - - Updated - - -



I said a week



It’s physically impossible to clear mythic raids in normal gear no matter how good you are, what on earth are you even smoking. World first races literally rely on raid members getting MORE gear in order to clear it for the first time and those are the best of the best. What you just said was completely ludicrous.

It's been 3 months since 9.2 released. Every single player could have EASILY gotten 272+ ilevel by now. You get two "free legendaries" that require less and less effort to receive each week. You can essentially customize whatever gearset/pieces you want through the valor upgrade system. Just an FYI, Echo cleared Mythic Jailer with ~272 if I'm not mistaken.

Do you genuinely think you should have been able to clear Mythic Jailer by now as a casual player? If so, your expectations are just way too high, I'm sorry to say. What's the point of a game like World of Warcraft if there is no aspirational element to it?

Oh and by the way, in any case, you'll probably be able to go in and curbstomp the raid on Mythic in the pre-release patch for Dragonflight anyways. So who cares? Well, it's probably because you (like every single mythic raider) want to show off your e-peen... except that you don't want to do the work to get there. This is an MMORPG. It's based off character immersion and progression. If Blizzard just inboxed you gear and the means to solo the hardest content in the game, I can guarantee you that this game would have died years ago. It's healthy for the community to have its "raider superheroes" because it demonstrates what you can do in the game. It's motivational, if you care about that stuff.

The other thing, regarding your previous comment on the gearing/play system being "disrespectful" of your time. Bro, you can literally... yes, literally, get 262 ilevel in one weekend playing the game. Don't believe me? I've done it twice with fresh characters since 9.2. I don't raid. I enjoy mythic+ as my competitive fix while not having to commit 10+ hours a week to raiding. And the thing is, now you can do it without even having to do higher keys. You can sit in dungeon-finder and spam low keys. By Monday morning, you can have a full set of BiS gear that even outgears heroic raid item level. Like really, what are your expectations here?

[Karawaka]

It's been 3 months since 9.2 released. Every single player could have EASILY gotten 272+ ilevel by now. You get two "free legendaries" that require less and less effort to receive each week. You can essentially customize whatever gearset/pieces you want through the valor upgrade system. Just an FYI, Echo cleared Mythic Jailer with ~272 if I'm not mistaken.

Do you genuinely think you should have been able to clear Mythic Jailer by now as a casual player? If so, your expectations are just way too high, I'm sorry to say. What's the point of a game like World of Warcraft if there is no aspirational element to it?

Oh and by the way, in any case, you'll probably be able to go in and curbstomp the raid on Mythic in the pre-release patch for Dragonflight anyways. So who cares? Well, it's probably because you (like every single mythic raider) want to show off your e-peen... except that you don't want to do the work to get there. This is an MMORPG. It's based off character immersion and progression. If Blizzard just inboxed you gear and the means to solo the hardest content in the game, I can guarantee you that this game would have died years ago. It's healthy for the community to have its "raider superheroes" because it demonstrates what you can do in the game. It's motivational, if you care about that stuff.

The other thing, regarding your previous comment on the gearing/play system being "disrespectful" of your time. Bro, you can literally... yes, literally, get 262 ilevel in one weekend playing the game. Don't believe me? I've done it twice with fresh characters since 9.2. I don't raid. I enjoy mythic+ as my competitive fix while not having to commit 10+ hours a week to raiding. And the thing is, now you can do it without even having to do higher keys. You can sit in dungeon-finder and spam low keys. By Monday morning, you can have a full set of BiS gear that even outgears heroic raid item level. Like really, what are your expectations here?

Bro you cant just show up and kill people like that

[ellieg]

I can literally prove this wrong. Anyone who can look up subs numbers and knows how to read earnings calls can prove this wrong. Stop saying nonsense and just crossing your fingers and hoping it’s true. It’s not.



Let me see this data then. Please let’s see it

You have sub numbers broken down by month that show 3-4 months after a patch? Or just overall quarterly sub numbers? You can look at raider io and other log sites that show as the season progresses and ppl finish up their gear, they stop playing. Look at numbers of m+ runs throughout the season.

If u look at season 1, there were 3 million m+ runs week 1, 1.8 million by week 4, 1 million by week 8, 500k by end of the season. As ppl get more geared, they play less.


25 man heroic raid in wrath dropped 277 ilvl. Compare that to 278 from mythic raid now. Ruby sanctum dropped 284. Compare that 285 from final mythic bosses.

In wrath, you got badges to buy gear with. What ppl forget is that the gear was very limited. Here is what you could buy with badges.

Emblem of frost. 2 a day for doing the daily heroic. Used to buy 264 gear, 251 tier.

Ilvl / slot/ cost

264 / trink / 60
264 / relic / 30
264 / cloak / 50
264 / belt / 60
264 / chest / 95
264 / gloves / 60

You'd only buy 1 of either gloves or chest so you could have your 4 set. So with that into account, you got 5 items (including a shitty relic) at what is equivalent to heroic raid ilvl 265 nowadays.

Next, you could buy tier at 251 ilvl.

251 / chest / 95
251 / gloves / 60
251 / legs / 95
251 / helm / 95
251 / shoulders / 60

As mentioned previously, 1 of the chest or gloves shares a slot with the 264 gear, so you'd buy 4 of these 5.

Next are emblems of triumph, they award 245 ilvl gear.

245 / trink / 25
245 / relic / 25
245 / helm / 75
245 / shoulders / 45
245 / ring / 35

You would already have ur relic, helm, shoulders slots filled so this is 2 items at this level.

So overall in wrath you are looking at 11 items total, 5 at 264 (265 equivalent today), 4 at 251 (252 equivalent today), and 2 at 245 (246 equivalent today).

As a non raiding casual, this would take 148 days of daily heroics to acquire these 5 pieces. It would take an additional 310 badges to buy your 251 tier, or 155 days of daily heroics. Then 60 emblem of triumph that u could farm out asap for the 2 245 pieces. Thats 605 total emblems of frost, 303 daily heroics as a non raiding casual.


-----‐

Today's loot in 9.2

2x 291 ilvl legendaries
1x 262 crafted item
2x 259 world boss loot
Once every 8 weeks, weekly quest for 265 ilvl box
252 in every other slot from ZM.

If you consider doing m+ casual, you can replace all of those 252, 259 with 262s. 272 after valor uncapped.

[Syncr]

It's been 3 months since 9.2 released. Every single player could have EASILY gotten 272+ ilevel by now. You get two "free legendaries" that require less and less effort to receive each week. You can essentially customize whatever gearset/pieces you want through the valor upgrade system. Just an FYI, Echo cleared Mythic Jailer with ~272 if I'm not mistaken.

Do you genuinely think you should have been able to clear Mythic Jailer by now as a casual player? If so, your expectations are just way too high, I'm sorry to say. What's the point of a game like World of Warcraft if there is no aspirational element to it?

Oh and by the way, in any case, you'll probably be able to go in and curbstomp the raid on Mythic in the pre-release patch for Dragonflight anyways. So who cares? Well, it's probably because you (like every single mythic raider) want to show off your e-peen... except that you don't want to do the work to get there. This is an MMORPG. It's based off character immersion and progression. If Blizzard just inboxed you gear and the means to solo the hardest content in the game, I can guarantee you that this game would have died years ago. It's healthy for the community to have its "raider superheroes" because it demonstrates what you can do in the game. It's motivational, if you care about that stuff.

The other thing, regarding your previous comment on the gearing/play system being "disrespectful" of your time. Bro, you can literally... yes, literally, get 262 ilevel in one weekend playing the game. Don't believe me? I've done it twice with fresh characters since 9.2. I don't raid. I enjoy mythic+ as my competitive fix while not having to commit 10+ hours a week to raiding. And the thing is, now you can do it without even having to do higher keys. You can sit in dungeon-finder and spam low keys. By Monday morning, you can have a full set of BiS gear that even outgears heroic raid item level. Like really, what are your expectations here?

What a long winded pointless post just to say

1. If you don’t like gearing process don’t play wow

And

2. It will be easy in the prepatch so who cares

Both non responses. Lazy post. If you have nothing to offer don’t say anything at all.

The other thing, regarding your previous comment on the gearing/play system being "disrespectful" of your time. Bro, you can literally... yes, literally, get 262 ilevel in one weekend playing the game. Don't believe me? I've done it twice with fresh characters since 9.2. I don't raid. I enjoy mythic+ as my competitive fix while not having to commit 10+ hours a week to raiding. And the thing is, now you can do it without even having to do higher keys. You can sit in dungeon-finder and spam low keys. By Monday morning, you can have a full set of BiS gear that even outgears heroic raid item level. Like really, what are your expectations here?

I’m not interested in what the gearing process is like right now that they opened up everything because this expansion is ‘over’ and they are testing things. Thanks for that input tho.

[ellieg]

What a long winded pointless post just to say

1. If you don’t like gearing process don’t play wow

And

2. It will be easy in the prepatch so who cares

Both non responses. Lazy post. If you have nothing to offer don’t say anything at all.



I’m not interested in what the gearing process is like right now that they opened up everything because this expansion is ‘over’ and they are testing things. Thanks for that input tho.

Its been like this for a couple seasons now

[Skildar]

The power progression eventually ends for everyone. Max keys and mythic raids just have the longest path. Eventually hitting a point where there is no more progression is a natural part of the game and not a bad thing.

We're not talking about the same thing.
I'm talking about the case where a player does heroic raiding feels like loosing because his time investment is less rewarding than MM+. heroic raider seldom gets gear and it can't be leveled up whereas mm+ player gets max leveled gear and some lesser one that can be leveled up

[Jmurrs]

What a long winded pointless post just to say

1. If you don’t like gearing process don’t play wow

And

2. It will be easy in the prepatch so who cares

Both non responses. Lazy post. If you have nothing to offer don’t say anything at all.



I’m not interested in what the gearing process is like right now that they opened up everything because this expansion is ‘over’ and they are testing things. Thanks for that input tho.

Excuse me? I addressed everything you talked about. You have yet to respond to anyone here constructively, instead opting to just flat-out disregard any comments.

I love the game. It's the best MMORPG on the market. Anyone who says otherwise is either upset at the creative direction of the game (which is understandable but irrelevant to the discussion) or genuinely prefers the gameplay of other games on the market (which again, is understandable but irrelevant to the thread topic).

I've seen pretty much every single iteration of how World of Warcraft rewards players for their time/commitment since Burning Crusade. I've also dabbled along the way in a few other MMOs when I got bored of WoW. There is nothing negative you can say about the speed at which you can put yourself in a position to see the hardest end-game content now. You can have a nearly-identical replica of one of the characters used in a Mythic Jailer kill in one weekend by playing at minimal difficulty settings... and that's not an exaggeration.

[Karawaka]

ITT: bad and lazy players call themselves "casual" to defend asking for max level gear and clearing the highest difficulty content while putting in the least to no effort

[cparle87]

I literally just named you one. Destiny 2.

Destiny 2 is a FPS, not an RPG. Like I said in my other post, if you want games where your character comes premade and you just do stuff there's only genres, like MOBAs and FPS for you. RPGs have gearing. You're confusing two genres.

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We're not talking about the same thing.
I'm talking about the case where a player does heroic raiding feels like loosing because his time investment is less rewarding than MM+. heroic raider seldom gets gear and it can't be leveled up whereas mm+ player gets max leveled gear and some lesser one that can be leveled up

Actually, we are. Everyone's progression ends somewhere. Heroic raiders ends before those who do the maxmost keys.

[Syncr]

Destiny 2 is a FPS, not an RPG. Like I said in my other post, if you want games where your character comes premade and you just do stuff there's only genres, like MOBAs and FPS for you. RPGs have gearing. You're confusing two genres.

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Actually, we are. Everyone's progression ends somewhere. Heroic raiders ends before those who do the maxmost keys.

The elements of the game I’m referring to are specifically mmo driven, like destiny 2. Gearing processes being time gated isn’t inherently an rpg element of game play. You don’t see Zelda having gear locked behind you farming a dungeon for months. Keep up

[ellieg]

The elements of the game I’m referring to are specifically mmo driven, like destiny 2. Gearing processes being time gated isn’t inherently an rpg element of game play. You don’t see Zelda having gear locked behind you farming a dungeon for months. Keep up

Speaking of keeping up, care to reply to my post where I linked the gear in wrath vs gear now and how I proved casuals are more geared now?

[Syncr]

Speaking of keeping up, care to reply to my post where I linked the gear in wrath vs gear now and how I proved casuals are more geared now?

Sweetie if that’s your version of proof, where you are linking the prices of items, then we need to have a very serious talk about what proof is. I ignored it because you specifically said there is data to prove this and you then went off on a giant “trust me bro” and said it’s proof.

Please.

[Karawaka]

I need a full set of max ilvl gear and the ability to full clear mythic raid within a month of release. If that's not feasible this game is too hardcore and should be tuned down for casuals like me.


/s

[stomination]

Weird that these forums used to say WoW is getting too easy, now they are saying WoW is too hard.

And the cycle will continue.

[ellieg]

Sweetie if that’s your version of proof, where you are linking the prices of items, then we need to have a very serious talk about what proof is. I ignored it because you specifically said there is data to prove this and you then went off on a giant “trust me bro” and said it’s proof.

Please.

Lmao gtfo of here then. I linked the items a casual could acquire, how to acquire them, how long of would take to acquire them, compared then to the max gear level players had, then compared them to the gear now. Wtf would qualify as proof to you, honeyboo?

If you can't contribute anything factual to the conversation then leave it.

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A d feel free to link your proof of player participation before and after getting full geared. Cause it doesnt exist

[Syncr]

Lmao gtfo of here then. I linked the items a casual could acquire, how to acquire them, how long of would take to acquire them, compared then to the max gear level players had, then compared them to the gear now. Wtf would qualify as proof to you, honeyboo?

If you can't contribute anything factual to the conversation then leave it.

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A d feel free to link your proof of player participation before and after getting full geared. Cause it doesnt exist

Sweet heart, I am not the one who said anything about there being “so much data to prove more people are fully geared now than in wrath”. You did. I asked you to give me proof. And you didn’t do that.

You took how long it would fucking take someone only recovering their daily dungeon tokens to get pieces…. Anyone who has played wrath understand how impossibly stupid that is to even make that comparison.

Raiding was a different thing entirely back then. A casual could realistically jump into raids and pug those raids in a couple of hours with how easy they were. Not only did this NOT prove what you said at all about more people being fully geared, you swung your hypothetical to so hard one way to compare someone who is doing mythic +15s every day to someone quing a random fucking heroic dungeon every day.

Your ‘points’ are awful and I chose to ignore them to save you the embarrassment for how impossibly stupid that was but it seems you really want to double down on it.

[ellieg]

Sweet heart, I am not the one who said anything about there being “so much data to prove more people are fully geared now than in wrath”. You did. I asked you to give me proof. And you didn’t do that.

You took how long it would fucking take someone only recovering their daily dungeon tokens to get pieces…. Anyone who has played wrath understand how impossibly stupid that is to even make that comparison.

Raiding was a different thing entirely back then. A casual could realistically jump into raids and pug those raids in a couple of hours with how easy they were. Not only did this NOT prove what you said at all about more people being fully geared, you swung your hypothetical to so hard one way to compare someone who is doing mythic +15s every day to someone quing a random fucking heroic dungeon every day.

Your ‘points’ are awful and I chose to ignore them to save you the embarrassment for how impossibly stupid that was but it seems you really want to double down on it.

If casuals can raid the 2nd hardest difficulty then, they can raid the 2nd hardest difficulty now. Or do m+15 which is honestly easier.

The "sweetheart" remarks are unwanted advancements and im not interested. Please stop.

Casuals don't typically raid, so I listed abt their gear opportunities. If we gonna say casuals can raid then ull have to define what a casual can and cannot do.

The gear listed did not require doing any m+ to be considered better than the gear in wrath. I included the m+ afterwards to show that you could get super close to ultimate max without any waiting.

I'll ask again, what proof would satisfy you?

And you said you had proof that players don't play less after getting fully geared. Id like to see it.