STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Syncr]

And you said you had proof that players don't play less after getting fully geared. Id like to see it.

Saying “if casuals raid the second hardest content then they can raid the second hardest content now” is only proving your ignorance. I seriously do not feel the need to dissect the thought of how much easier and accessible raiding was back then. If I have to explain that simple thought to you then there’s no use in even having this conversation because you’re so ignorant to the facts that this is a waste of time.

Starting in wrath, at the very beginning of the expansion, you could hit level 80 and then go STRAIGHT into the hardest content of the game and complete it. That’s not even remotely possible today so I’m not going to humor that thought anymore, if you bring it up again I’m just going to ignore it.

Casuals don't typically raid, so I listed abt their gear opportunities. If we gonna say casuals can raid then ull have to define what a casual can and cannot do.

Casuals don’t typically raid, today. For the various reasons I mentioned. Which is the point of what I’m talking about.

That’s literally my entire point. Is how the game can be setup in a way where casuals can easily raid no problem because it was setup that way. Now that it isn’t, casuals don’t raid anymore. So comparing a casual from back then to today one might be raiding and the other one wouldn’t. Is that really so hard to understand?

I'll ask again, what proof would satisfy you?

Listen, you were the one who SPECIFICALLY said you have data to prove that more people are geared now than in wrath. Showing me the prices of items isn’t proving that. So you need to either show me this data that you said you had or admit you’re full of it. Listing off badge vendor prices isn’t proof that less people were geared. That’s asinine.

And I do have proof of their being better player retention back then during periods where we had the most gear. Would you like me to link you earnings calls from the largest content draughts of tbc and wotlk?

[Miffinat0r]

This thread just boils down to at this point:

Players who like the hard competitive style of WoW currently and those who do not. WoW at it's start was not a hard game. Literally the mechanical difficulties that we see today are lightyears ahead of what WoW was during Classic, BC, and Wraith.

When the game was long tedious grind to get gear you had more players because the skill floor was extremely low. The skill ceiling once hitting max level now jumps up rapidly and suddenly. Plus you're at the end game almost instantaneous. I started a Warrior a while ago and playing off and on for about 2 weeks for maybe a hour or 2 for like 3 days I was already level 49 just by mindlessly questing. I would be max level the following week had I continued then the game becomes rapidly harder if you wish to progress your character past the "casual" ZM gear.

I think this a larger problem in the MMORPG community because the gaming market has changed for MP games. Most players today are accustomed to play and go mechanics instant groups, short content, and replability are all high.

Really if you ask me now what's wrong here this is what happened with MMORPGs

• Social Media killed the Social Aspect of MMOs
• League of Legends ate a big chunk of players attention spans. Instant queues.
• Players are more skilled now than they were in 2004
• The average player age went from 17 to 28 meaning less time to play

These items literally blew up the MMORPG model. Compare P99 and Classic WoW compared to Retail now. Those games are ez mode compared to today's game. But the difference is that the grind is still the same. It's long and it's a slog. But the average action per minute and mechanics that force you to run and gun have drastically increased.

[ellieg]

Saying “if casuals raid the second hardest content then they can raid the second hardest content now” is only proving your ignorance. I seriously do not feel the need to dissect the thought of how much easier and accessible raiding was back then. If I have to explain that simple thought to you then there’s no use in even having this conversation because you’re so ignorant to the facts that this is a waste of time.

Starting in wrath, at the very beginning of the expansion, you could hit level 80 and then go STRAIGHT into the hardest content of the game and complete it. That’s not even remotely possible today so I’m not going to humor that thought anymore, if you bring it up again I’m just going to ignore it.



Casuals don’t typically raid, today. For the various reasons I mentioned. Which is the point of what I’m talking about.

That’s literally my entire point. Is how the game can be setup in a way where casuals can easily raid no problem because it was setup that way. Now that it isn’t, casuals don’t raid anymore. So comparing a casual from back then to today one might be raiding and the other one wouldn’t. Is that really so hard to understand?




Listen, you were the one who SPECIFICALLY said you have data to prove that more people are geared now than in wrath. Showing me the prices of items isn’t proving that. So you need to either show me this data that you said you had or admit you’re full of it. Listing off badge vendor prices isn’t proof that less people were geared. That’s asinine.

And I do have proof of their being better player retention back then during periods where we had the most gear. Would you like me to link you earnings calls from the largest content draughts of tbc and wotlk?

This is completely wrong. Tbc had long raid attunement. To enter icc heroic you had to have beaten the raid on normal first. So if you think this is hitting max level and jumping directly into a raid, then idk wtf you are talking about.

Showing overall sub numbers has nothing to do with players continue to play after they are geared. First of all you would have to prove that players were better geared back then (you can't cause they werent), the. You'd have to somehow show the total number of active players before and after they got full geared. The closest things we have for that now is number of logs from m+ and raids. Both of which show that after a few months (how long it takes to get geared), the number of logs falls off in a very big way.

Everything you have said in this thread is wrong.

All of your posts are either misinformation, or "this thing is bad because I don't like it and I won't explain further".

[Karawaka]

Saying “if casuals raid the second hardest content then they can raid the second hardest content now” is only proving your ignorance. I seriously do not feel the need to dissect the thought of how much easier and accessible raiding was back then. If I have to explain that simple thought to you then there’s no use in even having this conversation because you’re so ignorant to the facts that this is a waste of time.

Starting in wrath, at the very beginning of the expansion, you could hit level 80 and then go STRAIGHT into the hardest content of the game and complete it. That’s not even remotely possible today so I’m not going to humor that thought anymore, if you bring it up again I’m just going to ignore it.



Casuals don’t typically raid, today. For the various reasons I mentioned. Which is the point of what I’m talking about.

That’s literally my entire point. Is how the game can be setup in a way where casuals can easily raid no problem because it was setup that way. Now that it isn’t, casuals don’t raid anymore. So comparing a casual from back then to today one might be raiding and the other one wouldn’t. Is that really so hard to understand?




Listen, you were the one who SPECIFICALLY said you have data to prove that more people are geared now than in wrath. Showing me the prices of items isn’t proving that. So you need to either show me this data that you said you had or admit you’re full of it. Listing off badge vendor prices isn’t proof that less people were geared. That’s asinine.

And I do have proof of their being better player retention back then during periods where we had the most gear. Would you like me to link you earnings calls from the largest content draughts of tbc and wotlk?

No, you cannot get right into raiding as soon as you hit max level. That is true. However, with just a week or two of doing mythic 0 dungeons, dailies and world quests you can be geared enough for normal easily. It might not be as fast as it used to be but I dont know why a casual would need to jump into raid the moment they hit 60. Also, on launch the Covenant quests gave you a good amount of gear too to help you get set for raiding.

[Syncr]

This is completely wrong. Tbc had long raid attunement. To enter icc heroic you had to have beaten the raid on normal first. So if you think this is hitting max level and jumping directly into a raid, then idk wtf you are talking about.

I’m talking about what I literally described. I said at the very start of wotlk. Read my friend, read.

Also “very long raid attunment” is a meme. It’s literally just doing a couple heroic dungeons and then clearing the raid prior. Wow…. Which was also removed eventually anyway lol.

Showing overall sub numbers has nothing to do with players continue to play after they are geared. First of all you would have to prove that players were better geared back then (you can't cause they werent), the. You'd have to somehow show the total number of active players before and after they got full geared. The closest things we have for that now is number of logs from m+ and raids. Both of which show that after a few months (how long it takes to get geared), the number of logs falls off in a very big way.

Except using subscription metrics is something you can use, and you most certainly can use it for content draughts in wotlk as well as tbc and say this was a period where “gear was most available to you” because that’s what I said at first. YOU were the one who brought up the goal post of “who was the most geared” I specifically said during points where gear was most available to you. Your doing that thing in an argument where you change the goal post and then force people to argue on it when that wasn’t what they said, so please either mature or kick rocks.

Everything you have said in this thread is wrong.

Prove its wrong then sweetheart lol. Because you seem to be struggling with it pretty hard.

[ellieg]

I’m talking about what I literally described. I said at the very start of wotlk. Read my friend, read.

Also “very long raid attunment” is a meme. It’s literally just doing a couple heroic dungeons and then clearing the raid prior. Wow…. Which was also removed eventually anyway lol.



Except using subscription metrics is something you can use, and you most certainly can use it for content draughts in wotlk as well as tbc and say this was a period where “gear was most available to you” because that’s what I said at first. YOU were the one who brought up the goal post of “who was the most geared” I specifically said during points where gear was most available to you. Your doing that thing in an argument where you change the goal post and then force people to argue on it when that wasn’t what they said, so please either mature or kick rocks.



Prove its wrong then sweetheart lol. Because you seem to be struggling with it pretty hard.

The first 2 raids didn't have heroics but the last ones did, so true at the start of the xpac for less than a year. But not the hardest content of the xpac.

And "just a couple of heroics" sounds easy until you remember there were 3 different reps tied to the first raids attunement. Meaning at least 3x revered. Way more of a time commitment than anything now.

No you can't use sub numbers like that. Im talking about when players are fully geared. Not when overall its easy to gear. Im saying players at when they have an upgrade to chase. When they are fully upgraded they stop raiding. Quaryerly sub numbers have nothing to do with that.

There are also too many variables to just say sub numbers. I could argue that based on sub numbers, pandas being added to the game is what caused the biggest decline. And based o. Sub numbers id be right. But that would ignore ebery single other change in the game and outside of the game. Very ignorant.

I'm not moving goal posts because that's what I literally said. I argued players shouldn't get instantly maxed gear cause they'd stop playing. You were the that tried to change my argument into how easy gearing was overall in thar aspect.

[Aydinx2]

LFR is a slog because mechanics have gotten more complex with every expansion and what used to be a fun cakewalk is far less so today. LFR is queued content with strangers and little coordination. It's 2 to 3 attempts if I'm lucky. If I am not, some bosses can be 5 or more attempts.

As easy as you think LFR is, it's not easy enough for me to waste my time in a queue for it, and then waste more of my time wiping on bosses I know all the mechanics to (I've full cleared the raid on normal and up to Anduin on heroic), all for rewards that are only valuable for mog unlocks... if I get anything at all. My alts will kill the jailer on LFR to finish the story quest and that will be all they ever see of the inside of the raid because it's not worth the time and frustration.

And I play the game to be entertained... not challenged. When WoW fails to entertain me, I unsub. Despite clearing sepulcher, I don't do real raiding anymore. I raided this tier to help out my guild that was shorthanded due to many not returning for 9.2. And brain dead button mashing is exactly what I want from LFR. If I want to do real raiding I can always go with my guild.

If it's a "fun cakewalk" it shouldn't award you with gear.
5 or more attempts are still a low amount compared to higher difficulties where people are learning fights.

And you keep saying "waste time". Don't play then, you clearly don't enjoy the game. WoW isn't a "entertainment > challenge" game. It's an MMORPG. That's not the right genre of game to play if you just want entertainment over challenge. You should be playing Animal Crossing or something similar instead.

[Syncr]

The first 2 raids didn't have heroics but the last ones did, so true at the start of the xpac for less than a year. But not the hardest content of the xpac.

Why are you moving goal posts again? No one said anything about “hardest content of the xpac”. This conversation is the most dishonest one I’ve had in a while.

And "just a couple of heroics" sounds easy until you remember there were 3 different reps tied to the first raids attunement. Meaning at least 3x revered. Way more of a time commitment than anything now.

And that time commitment goes away when you find out 90% of that is earned literally while leveling. Idk if you don’t understand these expacs or what but you’re being really dishonest about the time spent on this.

No you can't use sub numbers like that. Im talking about when players are fully geared. Not when overall its easy to gear. Im saying players at when they have an upgrade to chase. When they are fully upgraded they stop raiding. Quaryerly sub numbers have nothing to do with that.

I most certainly can. I’m not arguing under a goal post you moved. Not what’s going to happen. And even IF I were to use that, it for sure shows that player retention was still great at points to where gear was basically handed to you so connecting 1 and 1 together should bring most people to the answer of 2, maybe not you, but most people.

There are also too many variables to just say sub numbers. I could argue that based on sub numbers, pandas being added to the game is what caused the biggest decline. And based o. Sub numbers id be right. But that would ignore ebery single other change in the game and outside of the game. Very ignorant.

See here’s where you’re stumbling on who said what again. I CAN use these sub numbers like this because you specifically said

As for your 2 points, there have been multiple points in this game where patches last too long and everyone gets full geared. You see a huge decline in players. Happened a lot in tbc and wrath

Remember this is the goal we are working toward. THIS is what you said that I said I can prove wrong. You need to get your poop in a group if your going to be having a mature conversation.

[Karawaka]

Is 1-2 hours of questing and dungeons a day for 2-3 weeks to do normal raid too much work for a casual?

[Skildar]

Destiny 2 is a FPS, not an RPG. Like I said in my other post, if you want games where your character comes premade and you just do stuff there's only genres, like MOBAs and FPS for you. RPGs have gearing. You're confusing two genres.

- - - Updated - - -



Actually, we are. Everyone's progression ends somewhere. Heroic raiders ends before those who do the maxmost keys.

so you're the kind of person who can only read a third of a sentence or at least grasp a third of its content...

[Kyriani]

If it's a "fun cakewalk" it shouldn't award you with gear.
5 or more attempts are still a low amount compared to higher difficulties where people are learning fights.

And you keep saying "waste time". Don't play then, you clearly don't enjoy the game. WoW isn't a "entertainment > challenge" game. It's an MMORPG. That's not the right genre of game to play if you just want entertainment over challenge. You should be playing Animal Crossing or something similar instead.

Well we'll see just how much the devs agree or disagree with your line of thinking when Dragonflight launches. I'm hopeful that they will lean closer to my desires than yours based on comments they've made in the Dragonflight interviews. But if they don't there's nothing I can do but unsub when there's nothing left for me to do, that I want to do, that feels worth doing.

[arkanon]

This is a standard definition I have come across multiple times. The issue is within this definition no one can define 'significant time' or 'spontaneously' or 'irregularly' or 'infrequently' because those words mean different things to different people.

Link that definition to me - link to the website you obtained that definition from.

[Syncr]

Link that definition to me - link to the website you obtained that definition from.

That literal definition was on two completely random websites I found, the websites themselves aren’t really anything worth noting down this is just one I saw repeated. This isn’t on like Websters or anything.

There are other websites like urban dictionary or random forums where people ask for others definition and they all seem to align similarly to what I said, some mentioning skill level but not often.

[arkanon]

That literal definition was on two completely random websites I found, the websites themselves aren’t really anything worth noting down this is just one I saw repeated. This isn’t on like Websters or anything.

There are other websites like urban dictionary or random forums where people ask for others definition and they all seem to align similarly to what I said, some mentioning skill level but not often.

Link the websites you used for your "definition", otherwise its just you typing out your personal opinion, and claiming its THE definition. Just link the websites.

Since you mentioned it (i wouldnt have, but whatever) here is the top Urban dictionary defintion of a casual gamer:

"A person who plays games but aren't competitive. Usually they are just there to be social and have fun but if they end up losing in the game they wouldn't mind. They don't put in a lot of effort to try to win. They may or may not play long hours of games. A casual gamer doesn't place their gaming as a first priority."

But i look forward to you linking these websites that had the definition you said was the commonly accepted one. I mean its strange you had to go to two different websites and stitch them together, almost like you are just trying to support a particular narrative, but i look forward to reading it.

[Syncr]

Link the websites you used for your "definition", otherwise its just you typing out your personal opinion, and claiming its THE definition. Just link the websites.

Since you mentioned it (i wouldnt have, but whatever) here is the top Urban dictionary defintion of a casual gamer:

"A person who plays games but aren't competitive. Usually they are just there to be social and have fun but if they end up losing in the game they wouldn't mind. They don't put in a lot of effort to try to win. They may or may not play long hours of games. A casual gamer doesn't place their gaming as a first priority."

But i look forward to you linking these websites that had the definition you said was the commonly accepted one. I mean its strange you had to go to two different websites and stitch them together, almost like you are just trying to support a particular narrative, but i look forward to reading it.

https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/c/casual-gaming.htm

https://gzipwtf.com/how-are-casual-g...gamers-iready/

https://www.youreshape.com/how-to-be-a-casual-gamer/

I’m…. Not really sure what I would gain by making up that I found this definition on websites that aren’t worth noting but alright dude lol.

And yes that definition of urban dictionary says exactly what I said. They are very similar and some of them mention skill (I guess in this case competitiveness).

I’m lost what are you attempting to gain exactly by me linking the websites?

[arkanon]

And yes that definition of urban dictionary says exactly what I said.

So you agree that a casual gamer doesnt put in a lot of effort to try to win, and they may or may not play long hours of games? Are you SURE you agree with that? Based on what you have been saying in this thread?

[MoanaLisa]

Some people just don't get that blizzard can't create content for casuals players, because even those who identify as casual can't agree AT ALL on what casual even means.

This is why ANY discussion about hardcore/casual is just a total clusterfuck - by page 2 it's just people fighting about what casual is.

No one can agree on a specific definition of hardcore either. So apparently Blizzard can't create content for them either.

An example: DoubleAgent, who has been picking flowers on Panda Island since its existence does just that to level up to end game. Hard core or casual? I would say hard core, definitely. Others would say flower picking is the most casual thing ever.

Anyway the post in the quote is nonsense since no one agrees on definitions for either hard core or casual so by your faulty logic Blizzard can't create any content for either group. Bleah...why do I even need to explain how logically silly this is?

[Aydinx2]

I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.

What other argument is there?

They can see all of the content they want in LFR, which takes at most 5 wipes, fewer on the earlier bosses.
The only thing they don't see is a single mechanic per boss or a Mythic only phase on the Jailer, which they can get with Youtube.

For Mythic+, the only difference between a +0 and a +20 is how you play it. The dungeon story/bossfights are otherwise exactly the same.

So if not gear, what do they want? What are they missing out on by other people doing harder content and getting better rewards?

The only other thing I can think of is a mount, but when you remove the single dropchance reward that higher difficulty raiders have to look forward to just to satiate the wants of other players, you're just killing the game. Every game needs a goal to strive towards that isn't in reach of everyone.

Some people see a high mountain and make it their goal to climb to the top. Others see that same mountain and complain that the top should be closer so that everyone can see it. But at that point the mountain is gone and all you have is a small hill that nobody cares about.

[arkanon]

No one can agree on a specific definition of hardcore either. So apparently Blizzard can't create content for them either.

An example: DoubleAgent, who has been picking flowers on Panda Island since its existence does just that to level up to end game. Hard core or casual? I would say hard core, definitely. Others would say flower picking is the most casual thing ever.

Anyway the post in the quote is nonsense since no one agrees on definitions for either hard core or casual so by your faulty logic Blizzard can't create any content for either group. Bleah...why do I even need to explain how logically silly this is?

Way off base - you are again trying to make this binary. Why is everyone trying to do that? The exact point I have been making is that it is impossible to create content for a specific group - because those groups simply do not exist, as they are entirely subjective. The problem i have is that players are constantly demanding more "casual content" when 90% of the game already is casual friendly. When things eventually get boiled down, what many of these people ACTUALLY want is mythic ilvl gear and looks for doing WQ. There are people in this very thread saying thats how the game should be, and it should only take 1-2 weeks at most to obtain a full set of BIS gear.

[Aydinx2]

No one can agree on a specific definition of hardcore either. So apparently Blizzard can't create content for them either.

An example: DoubleAgent, who has been picking flowers on Panda Island since its existence does just that to level up to end game. Hard core or casual? I would say hard core, definitely. Others would say flower picking is the most casual thing ever.

Anyway the post in the quote is nonsense since no one agrees on definitions for either hard core or casual so by your faulty logic Blizzard can't create any content for either group. Bleah...why do I even need to explain how logically silly this is?

DoubleAgent is only hardcore if you define hardcore by the amount of time you put into the game. I wouldn't call him a hardcore player.
Some people can raid Mythic with only a few hours a week logged in. Some people log in for 4 hours a day and are barely getting to heroic Jailer.

The fact that people who can barely clear LFR complain about Heroic/Mythic raiding at least proves what most consider hardcore players. Just look at this thread: most people agree on what hardcore is. Nobody agrees on what casual is.