STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Syncr]

So you agree that a casual gamer doesnt put in a lot of effort to try to win, and they may or may not play long hours of games?

Lol yeah, I agree that that is A definition of a casual gamer. Like I have said multiple times, it is subjective and can mean very different things the a lot of different people. I have said this over and over and over again. I just mentioned that a lot of the definitions I found mentioned time spent, which would also be A definition of a casual gamer.

Are you SURE you agree with that? Based on what you have been saying in this thread?

Yes I am SURE I agree with that. I'm not really sure what type of 'gotcha' you think you're setting up but I don't think you have the tools to do this yourself.

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Way off base - you are again trying to make this binary. Why is everyone trying to do that? The exact point I have been making is that it is impossible to create content for a specific group - because those groups simply do not exist, as they are entirely subjective. The problem i have is that players are constantly demanding more "casual content" when 90% of the game already is casual friendly. When things eventually get boiled down, what many of these people ACTUALLY want is mythic ilvl gear and looks for doing WQ. There are people in this very thread saying thats how the game should be, and it should only take 1-2 weeks at most to obtain a full set of BIS gear.

Just because the group is subjective does not mean that they don't exist... holy christ I can't believe how your brain works it is so adorable lol.

I'll make this really simple if Blizzard tomorrow released a patch that said

"We have opened up a daily that guarantees you a BiS item that you don't already have and you just have to pick 1 flower"

This change is casual friendly by everyone's definition. You just made a change for the casual playerbase.

Now if they made a change that said

"Gearing now requires you to spend 10x longer to finish and all the difficulties have been ramped up"

This is a change for the hardcore player base.

Are you into Nihilism? Because that's seriously how your brain is operating right now.

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Just look at this thread: most people agree on what hardcore is

DoubleAgent is only hardcore if you define hardcore by the amount of time you put into the game. I wouldn't call him a hardcore

An example: DoubleAgent, who has been picking flowers on Panda Island since its existence does just that to level up to end game. Hard core or casual? I would say hard core, definitely.

Wat

You wouldn't call someone who spends 12ish hours a day a hardcore gamer? Okay then lol

[Lex Icon]

DoubleAgent is probably the most hardcore player around.
that takes some serious dedication.

also link me all these "casual" mythic raiders who only plays 2 hrs a week that people keep mentioning.
how in the world are they capable of keeping up with the others when they can't be bothered to play more than 2 hours a week?

[arkanon]

"We have opened up a daily that guarantees you a BiS item that you don't already have and you just have to pick 1 flower"

This change is casual friendly by everyone's definition. You just made a change for the casual playerbase.

No, entirely wrong. Many people who say they are casual do NOT want gear handed to them. They also dont want the gear to come to them too quickly, as tehy will run out of things to do very quickly. This is probably the WORST thing a company could do for their "casual' players. The most common request, and most reasonable, is for gear progression that takes a long time, but allows them to eventually obtain strong gear.

[Syncr]

No, entirely wrong. Many people who say they are casual do NOT want gear handed to them. They also dont want the gear to come to them too quickly, as tehy will run out of things to do very quickly. This is probably the WORST thing a company could do for their "casual' players. The most common request, and most reasonable, is for gear progression that takes a long time, but allows them to eventually obtain strong gear.

You're speaking awful loud for a community you aren't apart of. And it doesn't matter if those specific people like that change or not, the change makes the game more casual, hence it would be for a casual gamer, that doesn't mean every single person under the scope of casual is going to like it. That's just asinine.

Are you now telling a casual gamer what casual gamers want and that what I'm saying as a casual gamer is wrong?? LOL that's some grade A psycho nonsense right there.

[arkanon]

You're speaking awful loud for a community you aren't apart of. And it doesn't matter if those specific people like that change or not, the change makes the game more casual, hence it would be for a casual gamer, that doesn't mean every single person under the scope of casual is going to like it. That's just asinine.

Are you now telling a casual gamer what casual gamers want and that what I'm saying as a casual gamer is wrong?? LOL that's some grade A psycho nonsense right there.

Why are you assuming im not part of this "casual" community? Thats the crux of this entire post, and im wondering how you drew that conclusion.

[m4Zzo928]

Human instinct will drive anything to the path least resistant. If you could log in and have a full set of epics just for that, I'm sure some would be happy. So you say that's extreme? Yea I agree, but then we need balance.

I think Blizzard is on the right path, especially with people not ever having step foot in a raid able to get good raid gear. That's one huge way to help out the end game players who don't raid. Though, they need more world end game content to make it work imo. I personally thought the Nazjatar/mechagon zones in BFA was a great patch, I think two end game zones that are quite different, and heavily themed is way better than just one, and would drive end game more, heck maybe even 3. Hell, maybe you can have a 3rd zone only accessible when the whole server works up to it every week. I love stuff like that because it's group play without really having to be in group, so for the hermits they can be as social as they want.

[Syncr]

Why are you assuming im not part of this "casual" community? Thats the crux of this entire post, and im wondering how you drew that conclusion.

Don't even try with that dude lol.

[arkanon]

Don't even try with that dude lol.

No, back up your statement - you said, and i quote: "you're speaking awful loud for a community you aren't apart of"

You said that, just two posts ago - back it up - how did you come to the conclusion i am not "apart" (lol) of this "casual" community?

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Human instinct will drive anything to the path least resistant. If you could log in and have a full set of epics just for that, I'm sure some would be happy. So you say that's extreme? Yea I agree, but then we need balance.
.

Would you be happy if you logged in and you could now obtain BiS items for picking one flower per item? Do you think that would be a good change for teh "casual" community?

[Djuntas]

We'll I just had to endure 15-20 wipes on a fucking glory sepulcher normal boost. Like WHAT THE FU*CK. Why do they make raids this hard now. I have never wiped this much on a gut damn boost. World ranked 300 guild all 275 and this is the tuning...for normal mode with a little achivement on the side. Jesus lord. The game is dying and this is why...Everything only gets harder and harder.

[Syncr]

No, back up your statement - you said, and i quote: "you're speaking awful loud for a community you aren't apart of"

You said that, just two posts ago - back it up - how did you come to the conclusion i am not "apart" (lol) of this "casual" community?

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Would you be happy if you logged in and you could now obtain BiS items for picking one flower per item? Do you think that would be a good change for teh "casual" community?

I'm not digging through this thread to prove that you aren't a casual, you have been spending this whole time "My mythic raiding guild this, my friend who barely has time to play he might go days sometimes with playing"

Like you aren't fooling anyone dude and I'm not going to sit here and prove it lol. You aren't a casual gamer. That's clear. I don't care if you want to act like you are but you aren't

[arkanon]

I'm not digging through this thread to prove that you aren't a casual, you have been spending this whole time "My mythic raiding guild this, my friend who barely has time to play he might go days sometimes with playing"

Like you aren't fooling anyone dude and I'm not going to sit here and prove it lol. You aren't a casual gamer. That's clear. I don't care if you want to act like you are but you aren't

What the hell are you talking about? Wait, are you confusing my entirely fabricated examples as.....me? If so, why did you assume i was the mythic raider in my 4 ENTIRELY fabricated examples?

[Syncr]

What the hell are you talking about? Wait, are you confusing my entirely fabricated examples as.....me? If so, why did you assume i was the mythic raider in my 4 ENTIRELY fabricated examples?

I’m going to repeat myself, I’m not digging through this thread to quote you. If you want to pretend here in order to act like you have a say in what casuals want, I don’t care. But I’m letting you know that no one’s buying it.

[arkanon]

We'll I just had to endure 15-20 wipes on a fucking glory sepulcher normal boost. Like WHAT THE FU*CK. Why do they make raids this hard now. I have never wiped this much on a gut damn boost. World ranked 300 guild all 275 and this is the tuning...for normal mode with a little achivement on the side. Jesus lord. The game is dying and this is why...Everything only gets harder and harder.

Not that its important, but purely out of interest, were you part of the boosters? or bought the boost? I honestly dont care im just interested.

I do agree and have said so many times in this thread that raiding in general became an arms race, and it just got way out of control.

edit: Ill be a little more clear so this doesnt look like some attempt at a GOTCHA! - Are you a player who previously raided normal, but have now found the difficulty increase has pushed it out of your reach? If so, is that common among your mates who play? Its seems really common in one of the groups I raided with until SL - used to clear normal week 2 or 3, now get stuck on the first gatekeeper / difficulty increase for weeks and struggle to get the last boss down before the next patch. And thats with the help of 2/3 quite good players who have cleared it on higher difficulty guiding them through, so its not like they lack the knowledge or experience to be doing it, they just struggle with execution and numbers.

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I’m going to repeat myself, I’m not digging through this thread to quote you. If you want to pretend here in order to act like you have a say in what casuals want, I don’t care. But I’m letting you know that no one’s buying it.

Ok so we will leave it with you knowing im not "casual" but you cant say how you know, you just know, and you also know that everyone agrees with you. The funny part is, you cant tell me why im not a casual, because to do that you would need to be able to define what a casual actually is, and you cant do that.

[Syncr]

Ok so we will leave it with you knowing im not "casual"

Yes

10 char

[ellieg]

Why are you moving goal posts again? No one said anything about “hardest content of the xpac”. This conversation is the most dishonest one I’ve had in a while.

I misread this post:

you could hit level 80 and then go STRAIGHT into the hardest content of the game and complete it.

I took hardest content of the game to mean ICC 25 heroic but I guess i missed the first patch comment. Thats my bad for misunderstanding.

And that time commitment goes away when you find out 90% of that is earned literally while leveling. Idk if you don’t understand these expacs or what but you’re being really dishonest about the time spent on this.

I just leveled thru tbc classic and even if u focus 100% on rep, u still have to grind out to hit revered. So im not sure at this point that you even played tbc.

I most certainly can. I’m not arguing under a goal post you moved. Not what’s going to happen. And even IF I were to use that, it for sure shows that player retention was still great at points to where gear was basically handed to you so connecting 1 and 1 together should bring most people to the answer of 2, maybe not you, but most people.

Gear was never basically handed out. You never proved that it was. So showing any sub numbers without proving that gear was "basically handed to you", means nothing. My entire point is that gear never was handed out and that gearing today is easier.

Do you want max gear instantly? No one would play after the first month.

This was the point I was arguing against. But yes. Link me sub numbers and try to tell me that numbers dont decline at the end of a long patch.

[arkanon]

This was the point I was arguing against. But yes. Link me sub numbers and try to tell me that numbers dont decline at the end of a long patch.

To answer your question, yes, they literally do want that.

I'll make this really simple if Blizzard tomorrow released a patch that said

"We have opened up a daily that guarantees you a BiS item that you don't already have and you just have to pick 1 flower"

This change is casual friendly by everyone's definition. You just made a change for the casual playerbase.

I tried to explain that is NOT what most people are asking for around here, as it would destroy any gear progression, which is specifically what many are asking for. Most requests I have seen want it over time, by playing the way they want to play, but agree it should take quite a long time to earn. The person you are responding to has suggested you should be able to obtain full bis as a casual player within 1-2 weeks max.

[cparle87]

The elements of the game I’m referring to are specifically mmo driven, like destiny 2. Gearing processes being time gated isn’t inherently an rpg element of game play. You don’t see Zelda having gear locked behind you farming a dungeon for months. Keep up

Zelda isn't an mmo, stop using false dichotomies.

[Skylarking]

I've always thought it was best for blizzard in its current state to just focus on one thing rather than try to appeal for everyone. For the past few years it seems like they have, everything is very endgame and raiding/m+ focused with trying to be competitive. Other parts of the game have either been left in the dust or have just been around forever with nothing new, like transmog and mount farming.

Obviously I would like for blizzard to be making content for everyone but with the way the company is (very profit focused) I don't see themselves being able to stretch the team out to all parts of the game in a meaningful way. Inb4 blizzard is a very large company with a big workforce... Doesn't mean shit when profit margins are involved.

[cparle87]

so you're the kind of person who can only read a third of a sentence or at least grasp a third of its content...

He was comparing a heroic raider having weaker gear than someone doing keys, which can give mythic gear at the highest levels. It's a simple concept. The easier your content is, the shorter your progression curve is and the lower the ilvl it caps out. If he can't understand that comparing heroic raiding to max level keys is a false dichototomy I don't know what to say.

Also, excellent post. Ad hominem attack with nothing about the topic.

[Dawnseven]

No, entirely wrong. Many people who say they are casual do NOT want gear handed to them. They also dont want the gear to come to them too quickly, as tehy will run out of things to do very quickly. This is probably the WORST thing a company could do for their "casual' players. The most common request, and most reasonable, is for gear progression that takes a long time, but allows them to eventually obtain strong gear.

This is me exactly. Right now I have 17 alts, they're all 80, and by the end of the week they will all have their consoles maxed in ZM. I play 3 to 4 hours a night, 6 days a week, and 8-10 hours a day on weekends for a total of around 40 hours a week. I don't do mythic (forget keys), I don't pay for carries, and I don't raid. All of my characters are IL 249 to 252.

I consider myself a "hardcore casual".

Do I expect 270+ gear to be handed to me? Of course not. Do I even need it for what I do? Of course not. Would it be nice to have so I can eventually two shot a random mob and not have to work so hard to get through my dailies or whatever crap I decide to decompress with? Sure. What's wrong with allowing me to improve my gear through a time investment rather than trying to force me into mythics and raiding? Make me work for it in other ways. What's wrong with getting a 272 chest or legs for turning in 100,000 bear asses that it took me months to farm? How does me *earning* that piece of gear the way I did, months after the raiders have gotten it, hurt anybody? My character shouldn't be viewed as awesome as yours because ... you're a better player? Got mad skillz? Seriously? Who cares? My running around killing some chickens with the same Sword of Badassery that you have actually diminishes a raider's enjoyment of game? Why?