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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnseven View Post
    This is me exactly. Right now I have 17 alts, they're all 80, and by the end of the week they will all have their consoles maxed in ZM. I play 3 to 4 hours a night, 6 days a week, and 8-10 hours a day on weekends for a total of around 40 hours a week. I don't do mythic (forget keys), I don't pay for carries, and I don't raid. All of my characters are IL 249 to 252.

    I consider myself a "hardcore casual".

    Do I expect 270+ gear to be handed to me? Of course not. Do I even need it for what I do? Of course not. Would it be nice to have so I can eventually two shot a random mob and not have to work so hard to get through my dailies or whatever crap I decide to decompress with? Sure. What's wrong with allowing me to improve my gear through a time investment rather than trying to force me into mythics and raiding? Make me work for it in other ways. What's wrong with getting a 272 chest or legs for turning in 100,000 bear asses that it took me months to farm? How does me *earning* that piece of gear the way I did, months after the raiders have gotten it, hurt anybody? My character shouldn't be viewed as awesome as yours because ... you're a better player? Got mad skillz? Seriously? Who cares? My running around killing some chickens with the same Sword of Badassery that you have actually diminishes a raider's enjoyment of game? Why?
    Im fine with all this. Maybe not bear asses, lol, but yeah, totally fine with it - its how it was with the very powerful crafted sets in TBC - those motes took quite a lot of time to farm, access to the recipes (this was pretty quick), and although powerful for 2/3 (roughly) of the expansion they EVENTUALLY got outclassed. In an ideal world i would LOVE a huge quest chain that took weeks and weeks to work through, with extensive and interesting story eventually leading you to a Mage Tower style encounter that rewarded you with an entire set of decent but not mythic gear. Then, after all that, you could farm your WQ and daily crap to even upgrade it further. But that is not the world we live in. MAYBE if they did ONE questline that eventually led to a famous lore character being the test at the end - you know a famous warlock for the warlocks, warrior for the warriors etc. But thats still an extensive amount of work, and MOST people complained the MT was too hard, at least until it was nerfed into the ground. Even then many struggled.

    I have also advocated for YEARS for a system where people who prefer to play solo and do open world content are able to obtain loot that reflects that - set bonuses that include things like no dazed while mounts, 10% faster mount speed, shorter hearth duration, faster flightpoint travel, +XYZ% damage while solo in open world etc etc. But its never enough, so many people genuinely want mythic raid loot, and they want a full set within weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
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    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Then MORE people should leave and play those games instead. WoW is a hardcore MMO and if you don't like it you should leave. You're not allowed to get the same loot as those of us who can play hardcore, if you could then WE would leave and the game would die.

    But the facts say that game IS dying when it made for "hardcore" gamers only (more like nolifers to me).

    This comes from someone who has quite a few CEs (not all, doh) and few glads/hotas.

    I miss MOP pre-"mythic" introduction wow.

  3. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiroz View Post
    A lot of people are bringing up the idea that why do casuals want higher gear if they don't achieve it etc (extreme paraphrasing here)

    And it made me think is this something new or has this idea been as loud as it is now as it was in yesteryear.
    For perspective I think it's mostly an MMO-C thing. The same two dozen people keep bringing it up and arguments proceed in a circular fashion from thread to thread. There's several topics like this: boosts, what is pay-to-win among them. They never go away and if you spend a lot of time here they assume a level of importance far outweighing how they are perceived in the game by non-forum goers. To be frank: the arguments about casual vs. hardcore and who 'deserves' what are rarely if ever seen in the game proper. It's pretty easy to dismiss. There are zero definitions for casual/hardcore that all are willing to accept so everyone argues from different terms which is fine if you just want to have an argument (insert Monty Python reference) but will never ever resolve to anything much less change anyone's mind.

    The more important business thing as far as Blizzard is concerned is trying to figure out how to keep people around in the game for longer, how to perhaps bring more people back or even better how to get new players into the game again (a very tough thing for an expensive and relatively ancient game) and whether their long-standing template for how the game should work and progress has become outdated. In the face of competition and how gaming has changed since 2004 it's a valid question.

    I have opinions but no answers. Neither does anyone else.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The more important business thing as far as Blizzard is concerned is trying to figure out how to keep people around in the game for longer, how to perhaps bring more people back or even better how to get new players into the game again (a very tough thing for an expensive and relatively ancient game) and whether their long-standing template for how the game should work and progress has become outdated. In the face of competition and how gaming has changed since 2004 it's a valid question.

    I have opinions but no answers. Neither does anyone else.
    This is entirely based on the assumption Blizzard feels they need to do those things. What if they simply add more and more ways of getting money out of the remaining players? MAU down but profits stable or even up? Why change anything? I would also caution about updating their ideas on how the game should work, since currently (and for a while now) the best way to make profit long term is to go F2P or remove the sub, and flood the game with MTX - anyone denying this is the most successful business model (from a financial standpoint) is delusional, or just very out of touch. Even within Acti-Blizz, this is true...
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    The word casual have a meaning in the dictionary.

    We need to find a new word to describe people that log in everyday but don't want serious business or someone who wants but have no skill or is not willing to learn more.

    A casual player don't play every day, like me.

    You can have a casual player that understand the game and got plenty of skill. Maybe they were hardcore one day and can't anymore.

    Beeing casual doesnt mean they suck at the game.

    Just get some other word to describe that kind of player.

    I can sugest some... Bad player, careless player, anti-social player, low standards player... Etc

    Those are not casuals.
    This is one of the best posts of the entite thread. I find laughable that the term casual is used to describe someone who plays 2/4 hours a day lol
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  6. #1126
    DoubleAgent is the most intense player in the game.
    That requires a lot of commitment.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This is one of the best posts of the entite thread. I find laughable that the term casual is used to describe someone who plays 2/4 hours a day lol
    It gets close to describing a big issue, but doesnt quite get there. There are some players who say "oh yeah, im just casual" and they mean it - they dont take the game seriously at all and its just a fun distraction. There are others who play 8 hours a day, more if they can, and spend a fortune buying the best gear they can and farming mindless content endlessly - they struggle in a M+0 even though their gear is good enough for a +15 or higher. If ever questioned about their lackluster performance, they just say "fuck off bro, im casual, i actually have a life".

    What im getting at is some genuinely consider themselves to be casual, others use the term as a crutch to excuse their terrible performance. Now to be clear, having good gear and being shit is TOTALLY OK. I have absolutely no issue with it. I have raided with one guy like this for a decade - he is ALWAYS the best geared, with the most up to date fomo spec etc, but consistently SUX when raid time comes. His excuse when we used to ask him? "honestly mate, im just a bit shit." It actually became our battlecry for years. In fact when i first tried boomkin as my main alt in mop, it was a clusterfuck - i just couldnt get the opener right, and their opener was REALLY important at that time. I fucked it up 90% of the time - just started overthinking it and couldn't get the muscle memory down. Every time it happened i would just scream on vent "fuck off im casual!" and we had a good chuckle.

    Some think it depends entirely on how much you play.

    Some think it depends entirely on the content you participate in

    Some think it depends on if you schedule your playtime.

    Some think it depends if you play solo or with others

    Some think it depends on being in a guild or not

    Some think it depends on if you visit fansites/forums or not (seriously)

    Some think it depends on your actual performance in game

    I could continue, but I feel thats enough to get my point across.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The more important business thing as far as Blizzard is concerned is trying to figure out how to keep people around in the game for longer, how to perhaps bring more people back or even better how to get new players into the game again (a very tough thing for an expensive and relatively ancient game) and whether their long-standing template for how the game should work and progress has become outdated. In the face of competition and how gaming has changed since 2004 it's a valid question.

    I have opinions but no answers. Neither does anyone else.
    Long term meaningful gear progression would be a start. If I'm allowed to compare, in FFXIV casuals can get what would be heroic raid gear in WoW from doing pretty basic stuff, but it takes a very long time, we're talking months.
    Raiders will get to play with their toys much longer.

    Nobody wants to cap out on normal garbage gear in a month, the only option left is to quit.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It gets close to describing a big issue, but doesnt quite get there. There are some players who say "oh yeah, im just casual" and they mean it - they dont take the game seriously at all and its just a fun distraction. There are others who play 8 hours a day, more if they can, and spend a fortune buying the best gear they can and farming mindless content endlessly - they struggle in a M+0 even though their gear is good enough for a +15 or higher. If ever questioned about their lackluster performance, they just say "fuck off bro, im casual, i actually have a life".

    What im getting at is some genuinely consider themselves to be casual, others use the term as a crutch to excuse their terrible performance. Now to be clear, having good gear and being shit is TOTALLY OK. I have absolutely no issue with it. I have raided with one guy like this for a decade - he is ALWAYS the best geared, with the most up to date fomo spec etc, but consistently SUX when raid time comes. His excuse when we used to ask him? "honestly mate, im just a bit shit." It actually became our battlecry for years. In fact when i first tried boomkin as my main alt in mop, it was a clusterfuck - i just couldnt get the opener right, and their opener was REALLY important at that time. I fucked it up 90% of the time - just started overthinking it and couldn't get the muscle memory down. Every time it happened i would just scream on vent "fuck off im casual!" and we had a good chuckle.

    Some think it depends entirely on how much you play.

    Some think it depends entirely on the content you participate in

    Some think it depends on if you schedule your playtime.

    Some think it depends if you play solo or with others

    Some think it depends on being in a guild or not

    Some think it depends on if you visit fansites/forums or not (seriously)

    Some think it depends on your actual performance in game

    I could continue, but I feel thats enough to get my point across.
    The problem here is... It doesnt matter what those players say.

    The fact that I call myself something, doesnt make it true.

    In reality they are not casuals. They just feel confort by saying that, instead of admiting they suck at the game.

    Its pretty simple.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Long term meaningful gear progression would be a start. If I'm allowed to compare, in FFXIV casuals can get what would be heroic raid gear in WoW from doing pretty basic stuff, but it takes a very long time, we're talking months.
    Raiders will get to play with their toys much longer.

    Nobody wants to cap out on normal garbage gear in a month, the only option left is to quit.
    Have you read this comparison?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You have sub numbers broken down by month that show 3-4 months after a patch? Or just overall quarterly sub numbers? You can look at raider io and other log sites that show as the season progresses and ppl finish up their gear, they stop playing. Look at numbers of m+ runs throughout the season.

    If u look at season 1, there were 3 million m+ runs week 1, 1.8 million by week 4, 1 million by week 8, 500k by end of the season. As ppl get more geared, they play less.


    25 man heroic raid in wrath dropped 277 ilvl. Compare that to 278 from mythic raid now. Ruby sanctum dropped 284. Compare that 285 from final mythic bosses.

    In wrath, you got badges to buy gear with. What ppl forget is that the gear was very limited. Here is what you could buy with badges.

    Emblem of frost. 2 a day for doing the daily heroic. Used to buy 264 gear, 251 tier.

    Ilvl / slot/ cost

    264 / trink / 60
    264 / relic / 30
    264 / cloak / 50
    264 / belt / 60
    264 / chest / 95
    264 / gloves / 60

    You'd only buy 1 of either gloves or chest so you could have your 4 set. So with that into account, you got 5 items (including a shitty relic) at what is equivalent to heroic raid ilvl 265 nowadays.

    Next, you could buy tier at 251 ilvl.

    251 / chest / 95
    251 / gloves / 60
    251 / legs / 95
    251 / helm / 95
    251 / shoulders / 60

    As mentioned previously, 1 of the chest or gloves shares a slot with the 264 gear, so you'd buy 4 of these 5.

    Next are emblems of triumph, they award 245 ilvl gear.

    245 / trink / 25
    245 / relic / 25
    245 / helm / 75
    245 / shoulders / 45
    245 / ring / 35

    You would already have ur relic, helm, shoulders slots filled so this is 2 items at this level.

    So overall in wrath you are looking at 11 items total, 5 at 264 (265 equivalent today), 4 at 251 (252 equivalent today), and 2 at 245 (246 equivalent today).

    As a non raiding casual, this would take 148 days of daily heroics to acquire these 5 pieces. It would take an additional 310 badges to buy your 251 tier, or 155 days of daily heroics. Then 60 emblem of triumph that u could farm out asap for the 2 245 pieces. Thats 605 total emblems of frost, 303 daily heroics as a non raiding casual.


    -----‐

    Today's loot in 9.2

    2x 291 ilvl legendaries
    1x 262 crafted item
    2x 259 world boss loot
    Once every 8 weeks, weekly quest for 265 ilvl box
    252 in every other slot from ZM.

    If you consider doing m+ casual, you can replace all of those 252, 259 with 262s. 272 after valor uncapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  11. #1131
    The comparison by Ellieg does a great job illustrating the immense difference between WotLK and now, with respect to gearing for casuals. One other thing I'd point out is that the 264 vendor gear in Wrath was pretty terrible too. If I recall correctly, there might have been a leg slot that was itemized decently and the hit-rating trinket useful for characters that badly needed hit-rating. The rest wasn't even comparable to some of the 251 raid gear you could acquire in ICC, especially trinkets, which were the most sought-after slots at the time.

    In general, there was no option to customize your gear. You were forced to take what you could get your hands on. Now, you can spam M+ (probably the same difficulty as Wrath heroics) and get fully customized, competitive gear without stepping foot in a raid or having to clear higher difficulty keys.

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmurrs View Post
    The comparison by Ellieg does a great job illustrating the immense difference between WotLK and now, with respect to gearing for casuals. One other thing I'd point out is that the 264 vendor gear in Wrath was pretty terrible too. If I recall correctly, there might have been a leg slot that was itemized decently and the hit-rating trinket useful for characters that badly needed hit-rating. The rest wasn't even comparable to some of the 251 raid gear you could acquire in ICC, especially trinkets, which were the most sought-after slots at the time.

    In general, there was no option to customize your gear. You were forced to take what you could get your hands on. Now, you can spam M+ (probably the same difficulty as Wrath heroics) and get fully customized, competitive gear without stepping foot in a raid or having to clear higher difficulty keys.
    A lot of it was super terrible. But it established the precedent of buying it to inflate your item level to get invites since it was heroic raid level.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    A lot of it was super terrible. But it established the precedent of buying it to inflate your item level to get invites since it was heroic raid level.
    Yeah the famous item level add-on that people starting using after ToC so they could kill the first three bosses in ICC25 pugs and wipe 8 times on Saurfang each week

    ...or actually kill Saurfang just to have the raid leader loot the tier and Deathbringer's Will before disbanding group
    Last edited by Jmurrs; 2022-05-21 at 10:30 AM.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    He was comparing a heroic raider having weaker gear than someone doing keys, which can give mythic gear at the highest levels. It's a simple concept. The easier your content is, the shorter your progression curve is and the lower the ilvl it caps out. If he can't understand that comparing heroic raiding to max level keys is a false dichototomy I don't know what to say.

    Also, excellent post. Ad hominem attack with nothing about the topic.
    max level keys doesn't mean anything.
    I'm not comparing two different players, it's the same one. 15keys have a difficulty on par with heroic raiding. You don't bother reading or understanding. You use dichotomy but you clearly don't know the meaning of the word.

    I'm done with our exchange.

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I misread this post:



    I took hardest content of the game to mean ICC 25 heroic but I guess i missed the first patch comment. Thats my bad for misunderstanding.



    I just leveled thru tbc classic and even if u focus 100% on rep, u still have to grind out to hit revered. So im not sure at this point that you even played tbc.



    Gear was never basically handed out. You never proved that it was. So showing any sub numbers without proving that gear was "basically handed to you", means nothing. My entire point is that gear never was handed out and that gearing today is easier.



    This was the point I was arguing against. But yes. Link me sub numbers and try to tell me that numbers dont decline at the end of a long patch.
    I’m not discussing with you anymore you’re either too dishonest and constantly moving goals to make your point sound more correct than it is, or you’re not smart enough to stay on task. I’d rather argue with a wall

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    To answer your question, yes, they literally do want that.



    I tried to explain that is NOT what most people are asking for around here, as it would destroy any gear progression, which is specifically what many are asking for. Most requests I have seen want it over time, by playing the way they want to play, but agree it should take quite a long time to earn. The person you are responding to has suggested you should be able to obtain full bis as a casual player within 1-2 weeks max.
    I took an example and you ran with it to be what I’m literally asking for, wisen up and understand examples.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Zelda isn't an mmo, stop using false dichotomies.
    That’s the point of why I said it numbnuts
    Last edited by Syncr; 2022-05-23 at 01:37 AM.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Have you read this comparison?
    I don't care. I just gave an example of something that seems to work in a different game, I couldn't give two shits about some spreadsheet about a decade old version of the game. You guys really need to let go of this obsession you have with Wrath of the Lich King.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post

    Wat

    You wouldn't call someone who spends 12ish hours a day a hardcore gamer? Okay then lol
    Would you call someone who spends 12 hours a day trying to lift a weight (without actually lifting it even once) - a hardcore athlete?

    Time investment is not enough by itself, it should me a combo of significantly-higher-than-average time investment coupled with significantly-higher-than-average results

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I don't care. I just gave an example of something that seems to work in a different game, I couldn't give two shits about some spreadsheet about a decade old version of the game. You guys really need to let go of this obsession you have with Wrath of the Lich King.
    So you didnt read the post, obviously. Its a shame, since you might learn something if you did. In particular in regards to the loot a "casual" player can obtain in wow RIGHT NOW, compared to say...............hmmm................heroic raid loot?
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-21 at 12:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    Wat

    You wouldn't call someone who spends 12ish hours a day a hardcore gamer? Okay then lol
    Only if you define hardcore by the amount of time put in. Would you call someone a hardcore gamer because they play Animal Crossing for 12 hours? I wouldn't.
    Is someone casual when they raid Mythic but only a few hours a week?

    The WoW community has a really hard time realizing that time spent is not the same as effort or difficulty. And they think that just because they deplete keys for 5 hours a day they think they deserve Mythic raid loot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you didnt read the post, obviously. Its a shame, since you might learn something if you did. In particular in regards to the loot a "casual" player can obtain in wow RIGHT NOW, compared to say...............hmmm................heroic raid loot?
    If you can get heroic raid loot from doing trivial content in WoW over months of progress that's great. It works for the filthy casuals in other games, glad to see that Blizzard is learning even if it doesn't affect me personally.

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