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  1. #1181
    I am Murloc! Motorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    I didn't have to. Just like you didn't have to post your original response. But here we are.
    My original response was relevant at the time. If you have further concerns I suggest you contact a mod to help you.

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Translation: Many non-organized players are special entitled snowflakes and want the maximum reward without doing anything, while this never existed in the game ever, they somehow are trying to convince the more dedicated experienced players that are still here, that this was the case, despite we all know it never was.
    There have been many points in time, most characteristically MoP and BfA, when non-organized players could get within one tier of the max ilvl of the game in most slots. I don't think we can argue that the raiding scene in MoP was dying or suffered because someone could get solid gear from Valor over months or that BfA suffered because people could turn WM on and conquest cap, getting a full set of high ilvl gear months into each tier.

    I think the problem is that e.g. in Shadowlands, the best gear you can get is capped low and you can also get it extremely fast. You can get Cypher to max in 2-3 weeks and then gear up with Cypher gear within the week.

    What MoP did right (BfA did it to but it never felt like they intended that for a casual progression path, even if it was the best casual progression path the game ever had) was give clear goals to more casual players which also took MONTHS to complete. Sure you could get Valor items for almost every slot that was just 1 tier below what raiders had but you would finish with that about 4 months into the tier. So it was not a problem for raiders since they could just use the system as a fall back for bad luck and it also meant non-raiders' ilvl took very long to get high enough to confuse PuGs.

    I don't think Mythic should stop dropping gear personally. I can see some merit in the argument but ultimately I find that it doesn't really solve any issues. I do think Heroic raiding needs changes to the reward system (imo ilvl should upgrade by a tier in the Vault just like it does for M+; Heroic should give you a chance at a Mythic ilvl item OR neither should bring higher ilvl loot in the Vaultand M+ should get loot scaling all the way to +25 were it would reach Mythic raiding ilvls). But most importantly for the majority of the players, the gear progression for people not doing organized instanced content should not be something that you clear in 3-4 weeks at most. Imo you should be able to get to the normal level within maybe 6 weeks and slowly get to the Heroic ilvl well past the mid-point of the tier at 4-5 months. We have had systems like that before and I have not seen any evidence they made people quit raiding.

    With Dragonflight reimagining crafting it should very much be possible to allow very slow but meaningful progression for all players. And if people's issue is that they cannot tell what other players can do from their ilvl, why the fuck are they looking at ilvl only??? Gearscore being crap was established well over a decade ago . . .
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-05-23 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There have been many points in time, most characteristically MoP and BfA, when non-organized players could get within one tier of the max ilvl of the game in most slots. I don't think we can argue that the raiding scene in MoP was dying or suffered because someone could get solid gear from Valor over months or that BfA suffered because people could turn WM on and conquest cap, getting a full set of high ilvl gear months into each tier.

    I think the problem is that e.g. in Shadowlands, the best gear you can get is capped low and you can also get it extremely fast. You can get Cypher to max in 2-3 weeks and then gear up with Cypher gear within the week.
    But i dont see this, its the same as always, very easy gearing to previous HC/Mythic item level, aka current content Normal so the returning players can catch up, and after that, progression with the 5 different ways that exist.

    I believe the problem is as i stated in another thread, entitlement of the speed of gearing up, people want to patch hop faster, WoW doesnt suit them, they dont want to pay for 2 months, and demand the game changes so they get what they want faster in order to game hop.

    Plus and Titanforging, again Blizzard listened to a stupid crying minority and removed something was good to have cause you got 1 random decent item per year on some alt.

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    But i dont see this, its the same as always, very easy gearing to previous HC/Mythic item level, aka current content Normal so the returning players can catch up, and after that, progression with the 5 different ways that exist.

    I believe the problem is as i stated in another thread, entitlement of the speed of gearing up, people want to patch hop faster, WoW doesnt suit them, they dont want to pay for 2 months, and demand the game changes so they get what they want faster in order to game hop.

    Plus and Titanforging, again Blizzard listened to a stupid crying minority and removed something was good to have cause you got 1 random decent item per year on some alt.
    And I'd say the issue is the opposite; people gear too fast, hit a wall and then either unsub or stay on (either by sunk cost fallacy or because of secondary targets like cosmetics) but are frustrated they cannot advance much further in their prefered gameplay mode. There have been times when Blizzard allowed you to get to a much higher ilvl casually but it took much longer. But it still means you are making meaningful progress every week you log in.

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There have been many points in time, most characteristically MoP and BfA, when non-organized players could get within one tier of the max ilvl of the game in most slots. I don't think we can argue that the raiding scene in MoP was dying or suffered because someone could get solid gear from Valor over months or that BfA suffered because people could turn WM on and conquest cap, getting a full set of high ilvl gear months into each tier.
    I was fine with saving up for months to get something through valor or getting tier gear via LFR. MoP was the pinnacle for casuals. However, a lot of that was nerfed into the ground because those guys who play this game 23 hours a day could not stand the thought of casuals getting good gear.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I was fine with saving up for months to get something through valor or getting tier gear via LFR. MoP was the pinnacle for casuals. However, a lot of that was nerfed into the ground because those guys who play this game 23 hours a day could not stand the thought of casuals getting good gear.
    Blizzard does not really design by forum feedback though. It will if it is extremely loud. But mostly they base things on metrics.

    Imo they should add some form of activity track that would let you get Vault gear from doing world activities. Make it reward normal ilvl until you complete X amount of tasks (which you'd be able to do in about 8-10 weeks if you do all the goals every week, longer otherwise) and then reward heroic ilvl.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by conkrete View Post
    LFR or Normal, one has to go. Heroic should have Mythic gear and there shouldn't be a huge disparity in outcomes (10% max difference in terms of DPS/HPS etc..) in relation to Normal gear. Mythic should drop no gear, that should be competitive only. Every relevant competitive sports derives from the pre-existing condition that all have a shot at winning. Rewards should be: titles, mounts and real money for the top 20 for example.
    What I think should happen is that LFR/Normal would be merged into just Normal and drop normal quality loot. You could queue or make your own group. Heroic/Mythic would be the same as now.

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    But this got repetetive and boring, how many more times before Discipline Bubble and Spirit Link to counter the whole fight and easy loot?

    I am not a fan of the new system myself, i have weaker players that cause wipes and require more tries to learn it and this shift of multiple personal mechanics that wipe the rest is starting to tire me a lot, but i understand the shift as a player from the developers, its the same game for 18 years, new things must be created.
    The big problem with to much personal responsibility, specifically RNG where you can't decide who has to do the mechanic is that it creates resentment inside communities as bringing a 'weaker' player along becomes more and more punishing. And then 'good' players start leaving because while they are fine with carrying 'worse' players those players are now causing you to not kill the boss, rather then take a minute longer on the fight.

    It can be fine for Mythic, but especially on heroic and normal to much personal responsibility is a problem.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The big problem with to much personal responsibility, specifically RNG where you can't decide who has to do the mechanic is that it creates resentment inside communities as bringing a 'weaker' player along becomes more and more punishing. And then 'good' players start leaving because while they are fine with carrying 'worse' players those players are now causing you to not kill the boss, rather then take a minute longer on the fight.

    It can be fine for Mythic, but especially on heroic and normal to much personal responsibility is a problem.
    Pretty much, had a few better players disappear back to Mythic raiding for this very reason and i dont blame them (We are HC only) after 9.1 when we took the usual 2 month break before next patch, i just know they will fail and come back next expansion, but thats a different story.

    The shift to personal responsibility, as example HC Rygelon at the moment, is an easy boss, but the fact that the weaker/slower/bad PC players can wipe us instantly, has made me pretty much announce that we arent re-clearing, we got AOTC, we get Glory next week and we quit for the summer cause no way in hell i am wiping again cause one of the weaker players didnt pay attention, for the 500th time the last 7 years.

    Carrying weaker players wasnt a problem when i could simply have them do the mechanic, "Turtle this, ice block that, i will do the last one", but right now they stopped these mechanics and shifted to way more often, and way more personal mechanics that make this impossible.

    In reality its only like 4-6 more hours of raiding, its not a -big problem- but its very demotivating.
    Last edited by potis; 2022-05-23 at 02:06 PM.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Syncr View Post
    He truly believes that because you can’t narrow down “casual gamer” to an objective meaning or number that must mean you also can’t create any system that benefits them because it will just be a change that doesn’t fit what a casual gamer is because there isn’t a definition.

    It’s an insane line of thinking.
    I think he believes that because he doesn't want a clear definition. People frequently do this when it would destroy an argument. But the fault is in the logic. The reason words have definition is to remove ambiguity or misinterpretation. The words should mean the same thing to other people in principle.

    I think there does exist a definition that is clear and easy to understand. Perhaps Blizzard should tell us what they think is casual since it is clear from this thread that the players clearly can't agree.

    My rationale on that is simple: they have something in mind when they design content for different styles of players, so we should know what labels they had in mind.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakut View Post
    I think he believes that because he doesn't want a clear definition. People frequently do this when it would destroy an argument. But the fault is in the logic. The reason words have definition is to remove ambiguity or misinterpretation. The words should mean the same thing to other people in principle.

    I think there does exist a definition that is clear and easy to understand. Perhaps Blizzard should tell us what they think is casual since it is clear from this thread that the players clearly can't agree.

    My rationale on that is simple: they have something in mind when they design content for different styles of players, so we should know what labels they had in mind.
    I completely agree with what you’re saying, but I still think even with this definition it’s going to always be a subjective opinion.

    For example I could say something like “terrible pvper” or maybe “good pvper” and it’s going to mean very different things to a lot of different people.

    I could look at it objectively and say “well if you are better than most people in pvp then you are ‘good’” but that only puts in like the 1600 rating for arena. Well then what’s a good pvper?

    To someone who never pvps, someone who has full pvp gear and gets 1600 is a good pvper to them.

    To someone who is 1600, someone who gets 2k is good to them

    To someone who is 2k, someone who has an arena master title is good to them.

    To someone who is an arena master, a gladiator is good to them.

    To someone who is a gladiator, someone who is rank one is good to them.

    And then take that logic and go backwards and you’ll find other peoples definition of a bad pvper.

    Same logic will always apply to “casual gamer”. Because casual to you is completely different than casual to me.

    The thing about it is, you don’t need a set definition in order to achieve what we were talking about. A “casual friendly” change will be accepted as a “casual friendly” to all those definitions. If the game gets easier, takes less time, rewards you more, etc. These are all casual friendly changes by a vast majority of players. Of course contrarians exist so there will always be those who say “having a game reward you more isn’t casual friendly” but that’s ridiculous.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    your queue content will always feel watered down and lame simply because of the audience for it.

    Think about how unfathomably bad the average LFR/LFD player is. And then realise half of them are worse. That is the audience for auto matchmaking content. LFR is so watered down because anything that requires you to rub 6 braincells together is beyond them.
    this, i would pay good money to see those chimpanzees in a full qued HC SoFo raid wiping on the first boss over and over for 5 hrs doing 4k dps peak

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    . "Lets not do the Jailer, he doesn't drop any loot" Which kind of guild/raid group says that?"
    any guild that was not dogshit did that, why would you fuck over your vault with loot table mid progress and miss 4 piece?
    I.O BFA Season 3


  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    any guild that was not dogshit did that, why would you fuck over your vault with loot table mid progress and miss 4 piece?
    Calm down with your "dog shit" nonsense, your epeen boner is too much for us to handle. It's especially annoying because you try to rub it in so deep that you don't even understand that this discussion wasn't about some wannabe pro-raiders during progress or whatever.
    The Vault wasn't mentioned and this is not what it was about. It was about guilds not killing the Jailer because he was too difficult and people would rather loot better stuff from killing mythic or heroic bosses instead of doing normal or heroic jailer.

    Not because "the 3 extra items completely ruin my vault, lmao why would I kill him"
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-23 at 04:37 PM.

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Blizzard does not really design by forum feedback though. It will if it is extremely loud. But mostly they base things on metrics.

    Imo they should add some form of activity track that would let you get Vault gear from doing world activities. Make it reward normal ilvl until you complete X amount of tasks (which you'd be able to do in about 8-10 weeks if you do all the goals every week, longer otherwise) and then reward heroic ilvl.
    I think some forum feedback is taken but not all. I've seen a lot of people complain on the forums, asking for things that later came to life. Sometimes shady even... for example Call to Elements. A player came up with that idea and a blue told him it was not a good idea. Then Blizzard implements it and takes credit lol
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by stutt- View Post
    Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

    I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

    I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

    People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

    I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.
    You talk some mad nonsense. Seriously. So let me tell you the perspective of a vanilla player who raided pure end game... 23 guilds cleared Naxx in the 7 months it was out. Did people complain like you? No. You are used to vendor epics and feel entitled to stand up and not have to work hard on anything. Naxx was evil, it was hard but there was one thing that most gamers seem to overlook these days; it was REWARDING. -Not rewarding as in loot, that was a by-product of raiding. It was rewarding having done it. It felt fantastic and I can tell you now that high is like winning a marathon. I'd LOVE to see a return to those days. You could spot the hardcore a mile of- they were in gear you could never get. They deserved it.

    Your claims that Wrath was easy content is laughable. We cleared Naxx in T6. STARS cleared T6 in T3 just to prove they could. What you consider hard is easy to some, and while YOU might expect rewards, Blizzard do need to cater to the core to keep the game alive for that core who have played for 18 long years. Think. Stop being so damn entitled and think your sub allows you access to all content. LFR and staged raids bring us to where we are today; very slim numbers and trash players in purples thinking they can hang. Game doesn't teach them their class. Every 3 runs I'll see a shaman not using totems or a hunter that never misdirects. I wish they weren't even close to my weekly 50 odd runs of 15+ but here we are, hoping they'll learn or I can at least avoid them with RaideriO but nope, that's deception also because keks buy runs and get a false io score simply because they are entitled little clickers who keyboard turn and ugh.

    Game is VERY frustrating with keks at the endgame level. -Ask any player worth a pinch how frustrating it is to see a class not play to it's full potential in high M+ content and you'll quickly learn that it's not very conducive to fun gameplay when you are frowning at the tank that doesn't know the routes in 2 year old content or a healer who can't weave for peanuts and is so obsessed with their sub-par dps they let the group die.

    It should be a massive gap, like in the old days. I liked it when noobs were in blues and it was fun carrying them but in serious business, they have no place even trading me water, let alone grouping with me. I don't want to waste hours in frustration. Good solid groups are fun, being a solid player is fun. Getting carried isn't fun, sure it might make you smile but fun? No. Nothing of the sort.

    You may call me an elitist but it's just how things are in reality. You don't go to the dock workers bar to pick up a lawyer. So to each their own and the close-ness of noobs to endgame has brought the game itself to its knees. Blizzard did well when noobs were in blues and had to learn their class well to get the purples. -Or get carried. Both of which are good for MMO gaming. Standing around expecting loot and making everything faceroll is the WORST thing Blizzard would do. It's already eroding at the playerbase because when you get to many years of gaming the one game, it's the really hard stuff that keeps you coming back. That or friends. Both is a blessing but oh so damn rare to find.

    With seasoned raiders, Yogg 0 light was pretty basic to be honest. 3 drake was a joke, not even sure why you put that in there. Just zerg it in a minute and done. Anub-Rekkan was fairly laughable, the no kills to seasoned gamers was a bit of hit and miss, due to the fact that even the best guilds had some keks sneak into the raid. You don't mention Algalon, he was a monster, so was the achieve to get him down in a set ilvl of gear. Wasn't crazy hard but nice and challenging. I used to solo tank LK 25 heroic with one healer so uh... LK isn't even worth a mention.

    Your narcissism makes you forget that many played before you and many played MMOs before WoW. WoW isn't even a hard MMO to be honest. If you came from Everquest WoW was a bit of a joke in terms of difficulty. As I've always said; the difficult part of WoW is finding people who aren't complete garbage when it comes to knowing their class. ANY hardcore pugger doing high keys or raids will tell you that it's a minefield of clickers, keyboard turners and cookie cutters expecting to play endgame simply because they pay a subscription.

    EDIT: Sunwell wasn't nerfed by 30%.. Even so-called good guilds struggled on Muru and complained so it was nerfed but some had already killed KJ. Were the elite catered to? No. The cryhards were. Careful what you wish for; a good MMO requires the struggle, it needs the carrot on a stick for people to chase. Get good or die grinding...
    Last edited by zysis; 2022-05-23 at 06:47 PM.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by zysis View Post
    EDIT: Sunwell wasn't nerfed by 30%.. Even so-called good guilds struggled on Muru and complained so it was nerfed but some had already killed KJ. Were the elite catered to? No. The cryhards were. Careful what you wish for; a good MMO requires the struggle, it needs the carrot on a stick for people to chase. Get good or die grinding...
    Except Blizzard has consistently talked about how when you put a wall infront of most players they will not struggle to get past it, they will simply quit.

    That is why the old progressive (de)buffs existed and modern expansions use unlocking player power. 'Get good or quit' overwhelmingly leads to 'ok, I quit'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    We'll I just had to endure 15-20 wipes on a fucking glory sepulcher normal boost. Like WHAT THE FU*CK. Why do they make raids this hard now. I have never wiped this much on a gut damn boost. World ranked 300 guild all 275 and this is the tuning...for normal mode with a little achivement on the side. Jesus lord. The game is dying and this is why...Everything only gets harder and harder.
    why do i know youre lying? ^^ besides its not possible to wipe on normal mode unless you rly trying to and ignoree core mechanics all fight long such as rygalon big bang and jailor nockbacks
    I.O BFA Season 3


  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Would you be happy if you logged in and you could now obtain BiS items for picking one flower per item? Do you think that would be a good change for teh "casual" community?
    No, that's my point is there's a point, or balance that should be pursued. People will naturally want to do less and less, and also the rewards over time become static, and that's a hit to player motivation. You can't flood the game with rewards, and you can't limit them too much as well. Epics don't have much meaning anymore. I think it would be in Blizzards best interest to create Legendary sets to replace epic sets, that are quite hard, or grindy to get, and no not pieces like we have now, but whole sets (It could even be called something else, but preferably something signifying a better tier than epics). They are legitimate rewards that players will most likely want, but takes a commitment, and since they're rare, they maintain their value. You could keep epics as they are and they essentially take the place of rare, and rare really takes the place of uncommon, but the value of epics has diminished ten fold. A change is in order.

    This alone would have positive effects on player motivation, because that's what drives the game in an mmo. Make the grinds worth it, and then make the grinds as fun as possible with newer, better content.
    Last edited by m4Zzo928; 2022-05-24 at 12:04 AM.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    My original response was relevant at the time. If you have further concerns I suggest you contact a mod to help you.
    As was mine. We can keep doing this as long as you want. mods are worthless.

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by m4Zzo928 View Post
    No, that's my point is there's a point, or balance that should be pursued. People will naturally want to do less and less, and also the rewards over time become static, and that's a hit to player motivation. You can't flood the game with rewards, and you can't limit them too much as well. Epics don't have much meaning anymore. I think it would be in Blizzards best interest to create Legendary sets to replace epic sets, that are quite hard, or grindy to get, and no not pieces like we have now, but whole sets (It could even be called something else, but preferably something signifying a better tier than epics). They are legitimate rewards that players will most likely want, but takes a commitment, and since they're rare, they maintain their value. You could keep epics as they are and they essentially take the place of rare, and rare really takes the place of uncommon, but the value of epics has diminished ten fold. A change is in order.

    This alone would have positive effects on player motivation, because that's what drives the game in an mmo. Make the grinds worth it, and then make the grinds as fun as possible with newer, better content.
    So the person claiming it would be universally praised as a positive for casual players is incorrect?

    I ask because i tried to say the same thing many are saying - a bit of a slog to get some good items is perfect - what that slog is differs person to person, but just being given free loot doesnt seem to be desired by many "casuals" at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

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