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  1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It would take a lot of effort to complete the quest "Kill 10,000 raptors". if that quest rewarding a BiS weapon and you still didn't want to do it, could I say "Well, you just want rewards without the effort"?
    You can use whatever hypothetical scenario you like. The point still stands that so many today want rewards and they want them now.

    I played FFXI for years and the effort to acquire the best weapons was outrageous compared to other MMOs. SE made it so even casuals can acquire ultimate-esque weapons so much easier and people still complained it took too long or required too much effort. They won’t be happy until you can log in and get them free. This isn’t everyone but that mentality is growing more common.

    I’m personally fine with casuals having to work towards BiS, even if they can do it without a guild or having to rely on others much. Sure beats getting older legendary weapons they were not possible or feasible for anyone not in a guild or being a specific class. I say this as a Fangs owner.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  2. #1322
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Why is it always jumping to 'lol loot pinata, free loot, work or die bitch'.

    There is a level between 'to complicated for non-Mythic' and 'free lootz'.
    Because if you ask 10 people this question, you'll get 10 answers. You think it's "too hard" compared to Legion but who's to say other people feel like Heroic is too easy? Who's right and who's wrong in this example? Like I said in my previous posts, there are certain types of encounter design which I personally feel are harmful to the game but I also don't think that making encounters easier is the best solution.

  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'm perfectly fine with this if it means overall better raid encounters in WoW. For the record, I don't hate FFXIV, it's just not my cup of tea. I dislike how frequently it's used as a battering ram for change in WoW.
    I think it comes up just because it so clearly improves on the wow formula in so many ways, and the Blizzard of the past would then beat FF at their own game, but instead we get... Shadowlands.

  4. #1324
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Pretty much the entirety of General Discussion on this forum is non-organized people saying how they'd like to play and organized players telling them "how the fuck they should be playing WoW".

    If everyone accepted that everyone else should be allowed to enjoy the game their own way there would be precious little "discussion" left here.
    Except that's not the case. It's non organized people making demands to change the game to cater how they want to play and organized players saying no because their demands are absurd most of the time. Getting Mythic raid level gear simply by doing god knows what(anywhere from world quests to simply over time has been suggested) other than actually raiding is ridiculous. I'd be ok with Mage Tower giving a mythic raid piece once every 2 weeks or something, but let's be honest, every person demanding higher ilvl gear from "solo" content can't clear it.

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Except that's not the case. It's non organized people making demands to change the game to cater how they want to play and organized players saying no because their demands are absurd most of the time. Getting Mythic raid level gear simply by doing god knows what(anywhere from world quests to simply over time has been suggested) other than actually raiding is ridiculous. I'd be ok with Mage Tower giving a mythic raid piece once every 2 weeks or something, but let's be honest, every person demanding higher ilvl gear from "solo" content can't clear it.
    Why not just let everyone get BiS during the patch through whatever they like doing? What is the downside?

  6. #1326
    I’m fine with people getting really good gear from doing whatever they want but if you allow actual BiS from menial tasks, it depletes the purpose of the highest content. Why stress yourself out doing very hard raids?
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  7. #1327
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I’m fine with people getting really good gear from doing whatever they want but if you allow actual BiS from menial tasks, it depletes the purpose of the highest content. Why stress yourself out doing very hard raids?
    Because you enjoy that content and then unsub when you are finished with that content? MMO's are kinda seasonal now not long form anymore

  8. #1328
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    Because you enjoy that content and then unsub when you are finished with that content? MMO's are kinda seasonal now not long form anymore
    Those who do a few things then unsub until the next patch or expansion don’t sound like they’re really having much fun. When that happened to me, I moved onto another game entirely. But that’s just me.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith
    Pretty much the entirety of General Discussion on this forum is non-organized people saying how they'd like to play and organized players telling them "how the fuck they should be playing WoW".
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Except that's not the case. It's non organized people making demands to change the game to cater how they want to play and organized players saying no because their demands are absurd most of the time. Getting Mythic raid level gear simply by doing god knows what(anywhere from world quests to simply over time has been suggested) other than actually raiding is ridiculous. I'd be ok with Mage Tower giving a mythic raid piece once every 2 weeks or something, but let's be honest, every person demanding higher ilvl gear from "solo" content can't clear it.
    It's amusing how you say organized players are not doing that, then go on an entire paragraph of telling non-organized players "how the fuck they should be playing WoW"

    Non-organized players are not asking for any part of the Mythic raiding or M+ scene to be changed, they are asking for the non-organized portion of the game that they play to be changed. So why do you care and say "no!", as you state? They want what they do to be fun and rewarding and you just can't let them because you seem to think you know better "how the fuck they should be playing WoW".

    eta: The Warcraft devs do seem to agree with your type of thinking and are happily running off everyone who prefers non-organized play. Which is fine with me, more people playing STO with me, and whatever other game strikes my fancy on an afternoon.

  10. #1330
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Those who do a few things then unsub until the next patch or expansion don’t sound like they’re really having much fun. When that happened to me, I moved onto another game entirely. But that’s just me.
    I play long enough for KSM as i find the time and schedule requirements to raid as being archaic thats why i do not even bother and if the creation catalyst or a similar tier set generator stays with the patch cadence then there is literally no reason to ever schedule a raid again.

  11. #1331
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    It's amusing how you say organized players are not doing that, then go on an entire paragraph of telling non-organized players "how the fuck they should be playing WoW"

    Non-organized players are not asking for any part of the Mythic raiding or M+ scene to be changed, they are asking for the non-organized portion of the game that they play to be changed. So why do you care and say "no!", as you state? They want what they do to be fun and rewarding and you just can't let them because you seem to think you know better "how the fuck they should be playing WoW".

    eta: The Warcraft devs do seem to agree with your type of thinking and are happily running off everyone who prefers non-organized play. Which is fine with me, more people playing STO with me, and whatever other game strikes my fancy on an afternoon.
    You have to question why somebody would opt-in to play a game that has had a vertical player progression system since the beginning and then turn around and complain that this intentional design choice is somehow hampering their gaming experience. It's like going to a seafood restaurant and complaining that they don't serve hamburgers. In reality, you'd be laughed out of the establishment. But instead we have people essentially asking to speak to the manager of the seafood restaurant to make the argument that as a potential paying customer they deserve anything they want.

  12. #1332
    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    I play long enough for KSM as i find the time and schedule requirements to raid as being archaic thats why i do not even bother and if the creation catalyst or a similar tier set generator stays with the patch cadence then there is literally no reason to ever schedule a raid again.
    Yeah, I don’t blame you at all.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  13. #1333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    if you allow actual BiS from menial tasks, it depletes the purpose of the highest content. Why stress yourself out doing very hard raids?
    "the challenge" or some tripe. I don't know and I don't care but stop threatening me with a good time.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1334
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You say that, but you don't mean it. For example, calculus is hard. Would it be fun for you to have a raid fight where you just complete calculus problems? Maybe if you really like calculus, but then pick a topic you don't like. How about history? Want to write a really tough history essay as a raid encounter? Probably not. Why? Because challenge does not equal fun for anyone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You mean they should make their encounters more like Final Fantasy 14, because what you just described is Final Fantasy 14 encounter design.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It would take a lot of effort to complete the quest "Kill 10,000 raptors". if that quest rewarding a BiS weapon and you still didn't want to do it, could I say "Well, you just want rewards without the effort"?
    Getting better gear than casual scrubs is fun, that's how challenge = fun. None of us would raid mythic for the challenge alone, that's incredibly stupid. Challenge isn't fun, being better geared than those that suck is.

  15. #1335
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Getting better gear than casual scrubs is fun, that's how challenge = fun. None of us would raid mythic for the challenge alone, that's incredibly stupid. Challenge isn't fun, being better geared than those that suck is.
    And so why should the game be organized around that kind of weird, degenerate, sociopathic toxicity?

  16. #1336
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You have to question why somebody would opt-in to play a game that has had a vertical player progression system since the beginning and then turn around and complain that this intentional design choice is somehow hampering their gaming experience. It's like going to a seafood restaurant and complaining that they don't serve hamburgers. In reality, you'd be laughed out of the establishment. But instead we have people essentially asking to speak to the manager of the seafood restaurant to make the argument that as a potential paying customer they deserve anything they want.
    I think its blizzards fault from drastically changing the game each expansion. There are points in wows life I can see to support almost any stance on how the game " should" be.

  17. #1337
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    And so why should the game be organized around that kind of weird, degenerate, sociopathic toxicity?
    Because doing hard content should give the best gear so you can crush those that are bad at the game. Easy content shouldn't give any rewards at all, maybe some cosmetic shit that nobody cares about.

    If people can't perform at a high level they should unsubscribe and play some kids game instead. If you don't do premade group content yet still feel like you deserve gear you should play a single player game instead.

  18. #1338
    Quote Originally Posted by stutt- View Post
    Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

    I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

    I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

    People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

    I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.
    So people like me (who aren't top tier raiders but still enjoy the challenge) should have to suffer because your raid can't match yellows and blacks on Anduin?

    Nah, fuck off. If the content is too demanding go do normal or LFR. Blizzard introduced multiple difficulties for this reason.

  19. #1339
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Why not just let everyone get BiS during the patch through whatever they like doing? What is the downside?
    Downside is fact that most people will quit becouse everone will just do easyest type of content to get those rewards. You are truly delusional if you think people will do harder content just to get same rewards as some world q hero.

    Funny how people what do harder content should be doing just becouse they find it fun. But when comes to casuals and their boring easy faceroll type of world co then no oh no those people need bis gear to have fun but nono mythic raiders should have fun just for sake of it but we casuals those need gear to have fun.

    If you need bis gear.to have fun dont jusutifi reasob to do harder content with worlda like people should do it becouse they find it fun when you clealrly need rewards to actualy enjoy what you doing.

  20. #1340
    I'm seeing a lot of discussion around what should give the best gear but very little around how quickly you can get the best gear. I feel that this is the point that blizzard has been missing for quite some time now.

    Mythic raiding is one of the best way to get best gear quickly. Heroic raid should be one the best way to get average one quickly and then have ways to upgrade it though taking some time (like mm+)

    I'm not against having open world and LFG-LFR beong able to get some of the best gear but it should take quite some time for it to be fair and interesting to people solely interested on this content without hardcore players poluting their living space ^^

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