STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[ellieg]

The idea that an elderly disabled person should be able to enjoy something in the game is great. The idea that they should be able to enjoy the most difficult content is stupid.

I sometimes wonder if people here don't understand what competition is or why it is good. In order to have the thrill of victory someone has to lose. Sports are fun to watch and participate in because there is a consequence for failure. No one would care about skating around with the Stanley Cup if there wasn't another team crying in the locker room. It's a basic human impulse that has allowed us to survive as a species.

Competitive spirit can obviously become toxic. And in certain avenues like war etc it is obviously barbaric. But this isn't a war, it's a sport. A hobby. And there's an entire gradient of content where people can find a competition level that suits their interest.

The current game offers so few rewards for "winners" now that it's frankly bewildering how crazy people get about ilvl. 10 keys are probably easier than normal raid difficulty and you can get 272!

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Translation: I am complaining about a game I have no current knowledge of, yet acting like the opposite.

It reminds me of that meme where its like "you want to WIN, but you want your enemies to LOSE??? Thats a bit hypocritical don't you think?"

Like there's obviously gonna be content that scales high enough that it excludes certain players. Thats fine. Accept that the contents not for you and do the content that is. Also accept that your gear will be a few ilvls less. Its really not that big of a deal.

[Tyris Flare]

If you have to "earn" gear of higher item level by doing harder content, then people aren't doing that harder content for fun, they're doing it for the reward at the end of it.

Like, engage with a hypothetical with me for a sec. Imagine you could get BiS loot from any level of content. Even 5-man dungeons. Even solo. Take gearing up out of the equation as a reward entirely. Any other rewards you can think of are more-readily farmable in some other way than the highest raid tiers. There's no actual rewards tied to those higher raid tiers any more; they're just harder, and take more time, and a higher skill level.

Do you still bother running them?

If your answer is "no", then those higher tiers are not "fun" in the first place. They're the chore you do to get better gear (ironically, whose sole purpose is to make you better at doing those chores).

If your answer is "yes", then you don't have a valid position when it comes to higher item levels being restricted to that content; that's not why you're running it, and it shouldn't bother you if others can get the same quality of gear in easier content.

Lastly; you can't measure your own sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others. If it bothers you that other people are getting gear as good as yours from content easier to complete, your issue is a false sense of elitism and a desire that those people be identifiable as "worse" than you. Why would it matter to you at all?

First, look at the number of keys run past where they offer any rewards (tens of thousands). Then, to answer your last point, read what I wrote about competition and try to understand why sports are among the most popular activities throughout human history.

And finally, perhaps in a moment of rare self-reflection, understand why everything you wrote is a giant canard.

[Celement]

If you have to "earn" gear of higher item level by doing harder content, then people aren't doing that harder content for fun, they're doing it for the reward at the end of it.

Like, engage with a hypothetical with me for a sec. Imagine you could get BiS loot from any level of content. Even 5-man dungeons. Even solo. Take gearing up out of the equation as a reward entirely. Any other rewards you can think of are more-readily farmable in some other way than the highest raid tiers. There's no actual rewards tied to those higher raid tiers any more; they're just harder, and take more time, and a higher skill level.

Do you still bother running them?

If your answer is "no", then those higher tiers are not "fun" in the first place. They're the chore you do to get better gear (ironically, whose sole purpose is to make you better at doing those chores).

If your answer is "yes", then you don't have a valid position when it comes to higher item levels being restricted to that content; that's not why you're running it, and it shouldn't bother you if others can get the same quality of gear in easier content.

Lastly; you can't measure your own sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others. If it bothers you that other people are getting gear as good as yours from content easier to complete, your issue is a false sense of elitism and a desire that those people be identifiable as "worse" than you. Why would it matter to you at all?

I do agree w should move back to increasing more difficult tiers of content rather then rewards. The concept you can beat wow while taking a washroom break shouldn't exist.

[ellieg]

If you have to "earn" gear of higher item level by doing harder content, then people aren't doing that harder content for fun, they're doing it for the reward at the end of it.

Like, engage with a hypothetical with me for a sec. Imagine you could get BiS loot from any level of content. Even 5-man dungeons. Even solo. Take gearing up out of the equation as a reward entirely. Any other rewards you can think of are more-readily farmable in some other way than the highest raid tiers. There's no actual rewards tied to those higher raid tiers any more; they're just harder, and take more time, and a higher skill level.

Do you still bother running them?

If your answer is "no", then those higher tiers are not "fun" in the first place. They're the chore you do to get better gear (ironically, whose sole purpose is to make you better at doing those chores).

If your answer is "yes", then you don't have a valid position when it comes to higher item levels being restricted to that content; that's not why you're running it, and it shouldn't bother you if others can get the same quality of gear in easier content.

Lastly; you can't measure your own sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others. If it bothers you that other people are getting gear as good as yours from content easier to complete, your issue is a false sense of elitism and a desire that those people be identifiable as "worse" than you. Why would it matter to you at all?

Their entire argument is about casuals not getting BiS from their content so they are quitting the game cause its not fun. But somehow adding the bis gear to it would make it fun? Its either fun and they can do it cause its fun, or its not fun and they should go do something that is.

Why don't they take your advice and stop measuring their "sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others."???

What is the purpose of gear? To provide a sense of progression and allow you to complete the content. The gear you get at all difficulties accomplishes that. The problem arises when they inspect ppl that do harder content and then get jealous.

[Necromantic]

Idk if you understand the argument. I claimed ninespine wont be happy until everyone including disabled grandmas get BiS. You asked me to prove it. I link the post where she states everyone who engages with endgame content should get bis. You hyper focus on the term everyone and claim she never said that. I explain to you that when she says "endgame content" she is referring to basically any content that u do after hitting 60. Im talking even world quests. I tell u to ask her to clarify if u really wanna know what she means by "endgame content". Look man, idc if you think im being hyperbolic. Me and her have very dif views of how the game reward structure should work

You made a hyperbolic statement and insisted that's exactly what this person meant. So I asked you to prove it and you were not able to. It's pretty clear you were just poking the bear and I'll be honest, I think you know you were.

Their entire argument is about casuals not getting BiS from their content so they are quitting the game cause its not fun. But somehow adding the bis gear to it would make it fun? Its either fun and they can do it cause its fun, or its not fun and they should go do something that is.

Why don't they take your advice and stop measuring their "sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others."???

What is the purpose of gear? To provide a sense of progression and allow you to complete the content. The gear you get at all difficulties accomplishes that. The problem arises when they inspect ppl that do harder content and then get jealous.

His/her entire argument may be about that. No matter if it's getting BiS or tangible upgrades, many casuals feel that they plateau very quickly compared to previous expansions. Dragon Soul was the last raid I was hardcore about. After that, even in Mists, I could play casually and get tier gear that I was very content with. I didn't care about getting anything beyond that and many others felt the same way.

The casuals don't get jealous, they get envious. The game went from giving casuals decent things (not the best but decent) to nearly consolation ribbons. I know people here hate reading comparisons to FFXIV but that game's daily token system allows casuals to get relevant upgrades. They won't get them as fast as hardcores and they certainly won't be the most cutting-edge gear but casuals are happy with it.

[Azharok]

The casuals don't get jealous, they get envious. The game went from giving casuals decent things (not the best but decent) to nearly consolation ribbons. I know people here hate reading comparisons to FFXIV but that game's daily token system allows casuals to get relevant upgrades. They won't get them as fast as hardcores and they certainly won't be the most cutting-edge gear but casuals are happy with it.

Envious of what ? You can pretty much faceroll a 15 provided you have your 4P from LFR and a couple thousands gold coins to buy one legendary (since you get the other for free). Then it's raining valor and 278 on the weekly.

I'd argue it's precisely because it's raining highish loot that casuals feel they plateau quickly.

[Nymrohd]

Their entire argument is about casuals not getting BiS from their content so they are quitting the game cause its not fun. But somehow adding the bis gear to it would make it fun? Its either fun and they can do it cause its fun, or its not fun and they should go do something that is.

Why don't they take your advice and stop measuring their "sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others."???

What is the purpose of gear? To provide a sense of progression and allow you to complete the content. The gear you get at all difficulties accomplishes that. The problem arises when they inspect ppl that do harder content and then get jealous.

I think the argument is that there is a lack of progression for more casual players. That does not require for them to get Mythic gear.

[ellieg]

You made a hyperbolic statement and insisted that's exactly what this person meant. So I asked you to prove it and you were not able to. It's pretty clear you were just poking the bear and I'll be honest, I think you know you were.



His/her entire argument may be about that. No matter if it's getting BiS or tangible upgrades, many casuals feel that they plateau very quickly compared to previous expansions. Dragon Soul was the last raid I was hardcore about. After that, even in Mists, I could play casually and get tier gear that I was very content with. I didn't care about getting anything beyond that and many others felt the same way.

The casuals don't get jealous, they get envious. The game went from giving casuals decent things (not the best but decent) to nearly consolation ribbons. I know people here hate reading comparisons to FFXIV but that game's daily token system allows casuals to get relevant upgrades. They won't get them as fast as hardcores and they certainly won't be the most cutting-edge gear but casuals are happy with it.

Ok i retract my statement. He thinks 99% of players, not EVERYONE, should get BiS.

But that's the thing. This is the most gear friendly xpac for casuals. You get better than normal raid ilvl as a casual without ever doing any grouped content. Compare that to any xpac. The problem like I said is the speed of gearing, not the ilvl

[Necromantic]

Ok i retract my statement. He thinks 99% of players, not EVERYONE, should get BiS.

But that's the thing. This is the most gear friendly xpac for casuals. You get better than normal raid ilvl as a casual without ever doing any grouped content. Compare that to any xpac. The problem like I said is the speed of gearing, not the ilvl

No it isn't. Cata and Mists were the most gear friendly for casuals. It's gotten worse and worse each expansion since.

Getting junk gear with purple text does not equate to good loot. Back then, the upgrades were very tangible. They were not just simple ilvl numbers that didn't provide any kind of noticeable difference.

[ellieg]

I think the argument is that there is a lack of progression for more casual players. That does not require for them to get Mythic gear.

I agree completely. They can finish their content in 3 weeks. The solution is not to give them to bis, but to give them a system that takes 3-4 months to get their gear, like it us fir m+, raid, and pvp

[Azharok]

No it isn't. Cata and Mists were the most gear friendly for casuals. It's gotten worse and worse each expansion since.

Getting junk gear with purple text does not equate to good loot. Back then, the upgrades were very tangible. They were not just simple ilvl numbers that didn't provide any kind of noticeable difference.

250 ilvl is junk gear ?

[ellieg]

No it isn't. Cata and Mists were the most gear friendly for casuals. It's gotten worse and worse each expansion since.

Getting junk gear with purple text does not equate to good loot. Back then, the upgrades were very tangible. They were not just simple ilvl numbers that didn't provide any kind of noticeable difference.

What gear did non raiding casuaks get in cata and mists?

[Azharok]

What gear did non raiding casuaks get in cata and mists?

I'm gonna guess, badass blue gear and the odd BoE purple.

[Tyris Flare]

No it isn't. Cata and Mists were the most gear friendly for casuals. It's gotten worse and worse each expansion since.

Getting junk gear with purple text does not equate to good loot. Back then, the upgrades were very tangible. They were not just simple ilvl numbers that didn't provide any kind of noticeable difference.

Set bonus is like a 25% dps increase my dude

[Necromantic]

What gear did non raiding casuaks get in cata and mists?

Valor rewards and LFR gear satisfied most all casuals. They were the same gear (including tier gear), same models... just a little different color and slightly lower ilvl. The only people who ever complained about it were raiders who were upset because casuals were getting tier gear.

[Nymrohd]

I agree completely. They can finish their content in 3 weeks. The solution is not to give them to bis, but to give them a system that takes 3-4 months to get their gear, like it us fir m+, raid, and pvp

Pretty much. MoP gave you great gear (one tier below max) but you'd only reach that level of gear 3-4 months into the season. And more importantly, you'd get that gear doing ANYTHING, you just needed to play the game, grab Valor and maybe run LFR to keep the raid rep up.
Meanwhile in Zereth Mortis you will hit cypher level 6 in a couple of weeks. In Korthia it could take a while to get the max level gear available there but you would only be able to get that gear by grinding in a single zone.

What we need imo is for casuals to have a way to get Vault gear that goes up to Heroic. Imagine having a track (maybe using Valor) that works like the Conquest track did in BfA. For the first two months of the season it gives you gear equivalent to normal raid and from then on you get a Heroic item every week. Do more activities (clear Heroic Dungeons, move LFR here instead of the raid track, maybe clear multiple emissary quests in the week, run random BGs, do WM objectives, heck do 10 pet battles for all I care) and you get more options.

[ellieg]

Valor rewards and LFR gear satisfied most all casuals. They were the same gear (including tier gear), same models... just a little different color and slightly lower ilvl. The only people who ever complained about it were raiders who were upset because casuals were getting tier gear.

Being ~255 ilvl from non grouped activities right now as a casual, is a lot closer to top end than that

[Nymrohd]

What gear did non raiding casuaks get in cata and mists?

MoP gave you full normal ilvl with Valor. You could get two pieces of tier from the world bosses. In the last patch you had Ordos who dropped about EIGHT different slots and I don't know if I was so lucky but I got gear from him at least every other reset; Ordos gave gear equivalent to Warforged normal (and after the raid change, Warforged Heroic) just half a tier from max ilvl.

[Necromantic]

Being ~255 ilvl from non grouped activities right now as a casual, is a lot closer to top end than that

Again, you're focusing on ilvl numbers that do not have the noticeable upgrade difference that you got back in Cata or Mists. I can get a huge ilvl piece today and I can barely tell the difference.

[Nymrohd]

Being ~255 ilvl from non grouped activities right now as a casual, is a lot closer to top end than that

See, back then we did not have Normal, Heroic, Mythic. So the fact that casual players could get gear at Normal ilvl meant they were just 10-13 ilvls from max. Getting Normal ilvl now means you are 26 ilvls below max. Not to mention a ton of special loot coming from raids that you can access through LFR but then that is nearly 40 ilvls below. The difference is substantial between Wrath-MoP and now.

But again, ilvl is secondary. Slowly progressing throughout the tier, making many different activities rewarding is what worked best. In ΜoP you could cap Valor by doing heroic scenarios and pet battles if you wanted.