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  1. #1641
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    So the problem is executing the rotation? As in, a skill issue?
    I don't know how you got that confused but ok.
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  2. #1642
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    First, look at the number of keys run past where they offer any rewards (tens of thousands). Then, to answer your last point, read what I wrote about competition and try to understand why sports are among the most popular activities throughout human history.
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Their entire argument is about casuals not getting BiS from their content so they are quitting the game cause its not fun. But somehow adding the bis gear to it would make it fun? Its either fun and they can do it cause its fun, or its not fun and they should go do something that is.

    Why don't they take your advice and stop measuring their "sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others."???

    What is the purpose of gear? To provide a sense of progression and allow you to complete the content. The gear you get at all difficulties accomplishes that. The problem arises when they inspect ppl that do harder content and then get jealous.
    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.


  3. #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't know how you got that confused but ok.
    Could you explain what I'm getting confused?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.


    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.
    If its not fun at lower levels, adding bis gear to those levels isn't gonna make it fun. Which is the point of this thread is it not?

    If you're not having fun, play something else. Not hard

  4. #1644
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Could you explain what I'm getting confused?
    You went off on a tangent talking about simulated data, which by the way, you've done before where the onus is on you and you tell someone to go do their own research. That's not how a discussion works. You're trying to push your hyperbole and conjecture into a logical discussion.
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  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.
    And to win.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.
    Pro players keep playing because it is a source of revenue, if e-sports wasn't a thing, you'd still find people playing unhealthy amounts of games too, the fact that it is economically viable is just a bonus. Football wouldn't stop being popular just because we stopped paying the national teams.

    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.
    If you don't find it fun, you could always get off the treadmill ? Blizz isn't exactly holding a gun to your head and asking you to run on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  6. #1646
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You went off on a tangent talking about simulated data, which by the way, you've done before where the onus is on you and you tell someone to go do their own research. That's not how a discussion works. You're trying to push your hyperbole and conjecture into a logical discussion.
    1 ilvl difference = 1% dps difference. The game director announced this. The sims proved it. But you claimed it was proven wrong. The onus is on you to show that. Then you started talking about sims not reflecting reality.

  7. #1647
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If its not fun at lower levels, adding bis gear to those levels isn't gonna make it fun. Which is the point of this thread is it not?

    If you're not having fun, play something else. Not hard
    And my point is that the gear ladder is a distraction from that same underlying issue. If all people care about is the rewards, that's because the underlying content isn't "fun enough" in its own right. That isn't something you fix by monkeying with rewards, in the first place, but it is valid to use the focus on rewards to demonstrate the underlying lack.


  8. #1648
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    1 ilvl difference = 1% dps difference. The game director announced this. The sims proved it. But you claimed it was proven wrong. The onus is on you to show that. Then you started talking about sims not reflecting reality.
    Ok, so you're putting all your eggs in 1 basket based on information from a Blizzard employee who has been proven mathematically wrong several times (once even by someone who doesn't even raid but just happened to notice his math was way off) all while only looking at simulated data and not live data which too has been shown on countless occasions to be incorrect.

    I really don't know how to help you.
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  9. #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And my point is that the gear ladder is a distraction from that same underlying issue. If all people care about is the rewards, that's because the underlying content isn't "fun enough" in its own right. That isn't something you fix by monkeying with rewards, in the first place, but it is valid to use the focus on rewards to demonstrate the underlying lack.
    My point is players that don't find it fun should quit. I enjoy the game without getting the best rewards.

  10. #1650
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    If you don't find it fun, you could always get off the treadmill ? Blizz isn't exactly holding a gun to your head and asking you to run on it.
    Dude, I quit back in Mists of Pandaria, and came back briefly in Warlords of Draenor. I used to be involved pretty deep with the theorycrafting community from WotLK through MoP, though, so I wasn't just a casual fan at the time.


  11. #1651
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Ok, so you're putting all your eggs in 1 basket based on information from a Blizzard employee who has been proven mathematically wrong several times (once even by someone who doesn't even raid but just happened to notice his math was way off) all while only looking at simulated data and not live data which too has been shown on countless occasions to be incorrect.

    I really don't know how to help you.
    There you go again talking about it being proven wrong. Im asking you to show me where that was proven. Can you do that?

  12. #1652
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    1 ilvl difference = 1% dps difference. The game director announced this. The sims proved it. But you claimed it was proven wrong. The onus is on you to show that. Then you started talking about sims not reflecting reality.
    I mean, sims don't reflect reality. They're fundamentally white-room approximations.

    That said, they're accurate enough to confirm stuff like what you're talking about, on the rough performance per ilvl. It's when you compare the white-room DPS to actual boss-fight performance that you'll notice pretty wide divides, since boss mechanics complicate everything.


  13. #1653
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And my point is that the gear ladder is a distraction from that same underlying issue. If all people care about is the rewards, that's because the underlying content isn't "fun enough" in its own right. That isn't something you fix by monkeying with rewards, in the first place, but it is valid to use the focus on rewards to demonstrate the underlying lack.
    Which is highlighted by how so many get what gear they can and unsub until the next content patch.

    There are several games I've earned a platinum trophy or all achievements but still put many more hours into. Because the game is actually fun.

    Many higher end raiders have even admitted that they don't have fun with the game anymore. The only do it because they've made friends and that's the only way they can play with those friends.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    There you go again talking about it being proven wrong. Im asking you to show me where that was proven. Can you do that?
    Go do the research yourself. That's your philosophy anyway.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  14. #1654
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Which is highlighted by how so many get what gear they can and unsub until the next content patch.

    There are several games I've earned a platinum trophy or all achievements but still put many more hours into. Because the game is actually fun.

    Many higher end raiders have even admitted that they don't have fun with the game anymore. The only do it because they've made friends and that's the only way they can play with those friends.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Go do the research yourself. That's your philosophy anyway.
    Good talk. So you can't prove it

  15. #1655
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.

    .
    The most popular esports in the world (LoL, CS: GO, Rainbow Six,etc) are all directly competitive games.

    But sure, people also play for the love of the game. People do that in wow, too, as evidenced by:

    1) tens of thousands of keys run when there is no reward
    2) people clearing raids (or even proging in raids) where they have long since capped on gear.

    This is another thing where it seems like people here don't play the game they make thousands of posts talking about. Most people people progging in mythic right now (and even people who got CE recently) have virtually no upgrades left in the actual raid, they will have already been effectively capped by the Vault a month ago. Mythic raiding is the least rewarding in terms of gear that it has ever been.

    All the gear stuff here is such a canard outside of HoF guilds. And as I have explained, anyone with a pulse can get 272 gear on live right now with only the tiniest amount of effort.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  16. #1656
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Good talk. So you can't prove it
    I mean, I asked you for evidence well before you did and you never provided any. So why do you deserve it?
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  17. #1657
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, sims don't reflect reality. They're fundamentally white-room approximations.

    That said, they're accurate enough to confirm stuff like what you're talking about, on the rough performance per ilvl. It's when you compare the white-room DPS to actual boss-fight performance that you'll notice pretty wide divides, since boss mechanics complicate everything.
    I agree. But 1 ilvl is 1% dps difference. It was never proven wrong like the poster said. Mechanocs complicated things for sure. But if you see a 20 ilvl difference between a top player and bottom player, and the dps is over 50% different while the top end player is dealing with extra mechanics in mythic, its a skill issue for the bottom player.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I mean, I asked you for evidence well before you did and you never provided any. So why do you deserve it?
    I mean maybe the game director saying it, multiple threads, and the fact that sims are all available so you can look at the data yourself. Its like you asking me to prove 2+2=4. We can stop conversing, but remember you started commenting on my post to someone else lol

  18. #1658
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...display=scaled

    It's almost as if dps scaled with ilvl linearly ... hmm I wonder why that is ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  19. #1659
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I mean maybe the game director saying it, multiple threads, and the fact that sims are all available so you can look at the data yourself. Its like you asking me to prove 2+2=4. We can stop conversing, but remember you started commenting on my post to someone else lol
    You need to actually link your sources, not simply say "this is how it is"

    Now I'm sure that you're right but you still have to provide proof from credible sources if you want to be taken seriously.

  20. #1660
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    It was never proven wrong like the poster said.l
    Sorry, but it was. You're welcome to believe that if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I mean maybe the game director saying it, multiple threads, and the fact that sims are all available. Its like you asking me to prove 2+2=4. We can stop conversing, but remember you started commenting on my post to someone else lol
    If it were anybody but Ion, I would probably believe it.

    And it's not like asking to prove 2+2=4. You're basing your argument entirely off conjecture.

    I began commenting on you because you were attempting to dogpile someone who was just trying to toss mud against the wall to see what sticks. That's like... the main point of game forums.
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