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  1. #1641
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Being ~255 ilvl from non grouped activities right now as a casual, is a lot closer to top end than that
    See, back then we did not have Normal, Heroic, Mythic. So the fact that casual players could get gear at Normal ilvl meant they were just 10-13 ilvls from max. Getting Normal ilvl now means you are 26 ilvls below max. Not to mention a ton of special loot coming from raids that you can access through LFR but then that is nearly 40 ilvls below. The difference is substantial between Wrath-MoP and now.

    But again, ilvl is secondary. Slowly progressing throughout the tier, making many different activities rewarding is what worked best. In ΜoP you could cap Valor by doing heroic scenarios and pet battles if you wanted.

  2. #1642
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See, back then we did not have Normal, Heroic, Mythic. So the fact that casual players could get gear at Normal ilvl meant they were just 10-13 ilvls from max. Getting Normal ilvl now means you are 26 ilvls below max. Not to mention a ton of special loot coming from raids that you can access through LFR but then that is nearly 40 ilvls below. The difference is substantial between Wrath-MoP and now.

    But again, ilvl is secondary. Slowly progressing throughout the tier, making many different activities rewarding is what worked best. In ΜoP you could cap Valor by doing heroic scenarios and pet battles if you wanted.
    This and the ilvl thing wasn't so shady as it is now. I could get a LFR weapon and get a very noticeable increase in DPS where today, I barely notice a difference if at all.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  3. #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    This and the ilvl thing wasn't so shady as it is now. I could get a LFR weapon and get a very noticeable increase in DPS where today, I barely notice a difference if at all.
    Tbf, thats mostly cause they changed damage formulas to not scale nearly as heavily based off of weapon dmg.

  4. #1644
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ok i retract my statement. He thinks 99% of players, not EVERYONE, should get BiS.

    But that's the thing. This is the most gear friendly xpac for casuals. You get better than normal raid ilvl as a casual without ever doing any grouped content. Compare that to any xpac. The problem like I said is the speed of gearing, not the ilvl
    Normal raid gear is garbage. Either make it heroic or don't spend any time at all on casual gear progression, nobody will want it.

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    This and the ilvl thing wasn't so shady as it is now. I could get a LFR weapon and get a very noticeable increase in DPS where today, I barely notice a difference if at all.
    That's a you problem. The roughly 1% per ilvl dps increase has never changed.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  6. #1646
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Tbf, thats mostly cause they changed damage formulas to not scale nearly as heavily based off of weapon dmg.
    So a conglomeration of things made it less appealing to casuals over time.

    Casuals were not complaining anywhere near the extent back then as they are now. And sub numbers were much higher, so there were a lot more around who could have complained if they felt the need.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    That's a you problem. The roughly 1% per ilvl dps increase has never changed.
    Please stop responding to me.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  7. #1647
    Just ran the simbot on my toon, 239 tier pieces, 262 legendaries and 255 on every other slot. The power difference is about 20% lower from my current ilvl (276). You don't need those extra 20% to clear a 15, or a normal raid. And it's more than enough to progress through heroic while you swap out 239 to 262 tier pieces.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    This and the ilvl thing wasn't so shady as it is now. I could get a LFR weapon and get a very noticeable increase in DPS where today, I barely notice a difference if at all.
    Yes but doing subpar damage just because you didn't drop a weapon with appropriate ilvl feelsbad when the rest of your gear is good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  8. #1648
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Just ran the simbot on my toon, 239 tier pieces, 262 legendaries and 255 on every other slot. The power difference is about 20% lower from my current ilvl (276). You don't need those extra 20% to clear a 15, or a normal raid. And it's more than enough to progress through heroic while you swap out 239 to 262 tier pieces.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes but doing subpar damage just because you didn't drop a weapon with appropriate ilvl feelsbad when the rest of your gear is good.
    It was a really funny day a couple years or so ago when I think ion showed that 1 ilvl difference is 1% dps difference like the poster above was saying. Ppl claimed it was like a 50% dps difference and were blown away when it wasn't. Was funny when he said it was a skill issue lol

  9. #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    It was a really funny day a couple years or so ago when I think ion showed that 1 ilvl difference is 1% dps difference like the poster above was saying. Ppl claimed it was like a 50% dps difference and were blown away when it wasn't. Was funny when he said it was a skill issue lol
    My point was that the valor upgrade mechanic is both good and bad, good because it lessens the blow on lousy rng and you can just upgrade your stuff, bad because you "only" gain an extra 1% every upgrade you do. Of course when you compare full 252 ilvl to 278 there's a massive damage gap, but no one really jumps from 252 to 278 without going past 253,254,255 etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  10. #1650
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    It was a really funny day a couple years or so ago when I think ion showed that 1 ilvl difference is 1% dps difference like the poster above was saying. Ppl claimed it was like a 50% dps difference and were blown away when it wasn't. Was funny when he said it was a skill issue lol
    Kinda like the several times people have posted and corrected Ion's math?

    Fun times.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  11. #1651
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Kinda like the several times people have posted and corrected Ion's math?

    Fun times.
    Run the sims and post them lol

  12. #1652
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Run the sims and post them lol
    I trust live data, not simulated.

    Just because you can successfully build a table in Minecraft doesn't make you a carpenter.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  13. #1653
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I trust live data, not simulated.

    Just because you can successfully build a table in Minecraft doesn't make you a carpenter.
    So the problem is executing the rotation? As in, a skill issue?

  14. #1654
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    So the problem is executing the rotation? As in, a skill issue?
    I don't know how you got that confused but ok.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  15. #1655
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    First, look at the number of keys run past where they offer any rewards (tens of thousands). Then, to answer your last point, read what I wrote about competition and try to understand why sports are among the most popular activities throughout human history.
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Their entire argument is about casuals not getting BiS from their content so they are quitting the game cause its not fun. But somehow adding the bis gear to it would make it fun? Its either fun and they can do it cause its fun, or its not fun and they should go do something that is.

    Why don't they take your advice and stop measuring their "sense of "fun" based on the experiences/rewards of others."???

    What is the purpose of gear? To provide a sense of progression and allow you to complete the content. The gear you get at all difficulties accomplishes that. The problem arises when they inspect ppl that do harder content and then get jealous.
    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.


  16. #1656
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I don't know how you got that confused but ok.
    Could you explain what I'm getting confused?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.


    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.
    If its not fun at lower levels, adding bis gear to those levels isn't gonna make it fun. Which is the point of this thread is it not?

    If you're not having fun, play something else. Not hard

  17. #1657
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Could you explain what I'm getting confused?
    You went off on a tangent talking about simulated data, which by the way, you've done before where the onus is on you and you tell someone to go do their own research. That's not how a discussion works. You're trying to push your hyperbole and conjecture into a logical discussion.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  18. #1658
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sports are played by tons of people without any expectation or interest in any reward for doing so. People play for the love of the game itself.
    And to win.

    Take E-sports for a more direct analogue; those players compete for prizes and get paid to play. Would they stop playing video games entirely if they were no longer competing in those leagues? There's plenty of people doing speedrunning or the like because they love doing it, not because they make any money or gain any tacit rewards for it.
    Pro players keep playing because it is a source of revenue, if e-sports wasn't a thing, you'd still find people playing unhealthy amounts of games too, the fact that it is economically viable is just a bonus. Football wouldn't stop being popular just because we stopped paying the national teams.

    If you're gonna push me, I'm gonna point out that WoW's a giant treadmill which dangles the concept of "Fun" in front of you as a reward that never actually arrives. I disagree that it's "fun" at the lower levels, too, they're just on a lower speed setting of the treadmill. They keep telling you about endorphins, and you keep sweating and grinding, and it never gets better. And then they upgrade you from the Treadmaster 2000 to the brand-new Treadmaster 3000 and you have to start from scratch again.

    The loot system's the carrot that fundamentally distracts you from the fact that it's a race with no finish line, just running laps until you die.
    If you don't find it fun, you could always get off the treadmill ? Blizz isn't exactly holding a gun to your head and asking you to run on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  19. #1659
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You went off on a tangent talking about simulated data, which by the way, you've done before where the onus is on you and you tell someone to go do their own research. That's not how a discussion works. You're trying to push your hyperbole and conjecture into a logical discussion.
    1 ilvl difference = 1% dps difference. The game director announced this. The sims proved it. But you claimed it was proven wrong. The onus is on you to show that. Then you started talking about sims not reflecting reality.

  20. #1660
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If its not fun at lower levels, adding bis gear to those levels isn't gonna make it fun. Which is the point of this thread is it not?

    If you're not having fun, play something else. Not hard
    And my point is that the gear ladder is a distraction from that same underlying issue. If all people care about is the rewards, that's because the underlying content isn't "fun enough" in its own right. That isn't something you fix by monkeying with rewards, in the first place, but it is valid to use the focus on rewards to demonstrate the underlying lack.


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