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  1. #1661
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    You need to actually link your sources, not simply say "this is how it is"

    Now I'm sure that you're right but you still have to provide proof from credible sources if you want to be taken seriously.
    I'm not gonna treat posts on mmochamp like a research paper. I dont feel the need to link sources to easily googled things

  2. #1662
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'm not gonna treat posts on mmochamp like a research paper. I dont feel the need to link sources to easily googled things
    If it's so easily googled, it wouldn't be difficult for you to source yourself, would it? Nobody is asking you to write a thesis. That's quite a stretch.
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  3. #1663
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    See, back then we did not have Normal, Heroic, Mythic. So the fact that casual players could get gear at Normal ilvl meant they were just 10-13 ilvls from max. Getting Normal ilvl now means you are 26 ilvls below max. Not to mention a ton of special loot coming from raids that you can access through LFR but then that is nearly 40 ilvls below. The difference is substantial between Wrath-MoP and now.

    But again, ilvl is secondary. Slowly progressing throughout the tier, making many different activities rewarding is what worked best. In ΜoP you could cap Valor by doing heroic scenarios and pet battles if you wanted.
    I mean this isn't terribly honest. With weekly events you get about 13 ilvs apart farm mythic save for people killing the last 4 bosses...

    Nothing but the entitment has changed.

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Sorry, but it was. You're welcome to believe that if you want.



    If it were anybody but Ion, I would probably believe it.

    And it's not like asking to prove 2+2=4. You're basing your argument entirely off conjecture.

    I began commenting on you because you were attempting to dogpile someone who was just trying to toss mud against the wall to see what sticks. That's like... the main point of game forums.
    Ok friend. Well if you ever get bored like I am with this conversation, spend 2 minutes on the sims messing around with ilvl.

  5. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ok friend. Well if you ever get bored like I am with this conversation, spend 2 minutes on the sims messing around with ilvl.
    "I'm bored" is a very dated way to concede a discussion.

    I have no interest in sims. I much prefer real data from reliable sources.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  6. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    "I'm bored" is a very dated way to concede a discussion.

    I have no interest in sims. I much prefer real data from reliable sources.
    Oh you mean real data, where skill plays a big part in the difference you see? Lmao

  7. #1667
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Oh you mean real data, where skill plays a big part in the difference you see? Lmao
    This is what we call a circular conversation.
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  8. #1668
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean this isn't terribly honest. With weekly events you get about 13 ilvs apart farm mythic save for people killing the last 4 bosses...

    Nothing but the entitment has changed.
    Once every three months you get the Dungeon event and you MAY get a good item, sure. . .

  9. #1669
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    This is what we call a circular conversation.
    Yes. Ill reiterate it all so we can both be done. Max theoretical dps (as in sims) changes at the rate of 1 ilvl = 1% dps difference. This is stated by the game director. This had a hundred threads about it when announced. This was and is proven true from sims. Idc if u don't believe me or want to cry about sources.

    You claim you don't care about sims, you care abt real data. Real data has mechanics so u won't reach max theoretical dps. But if someone 20 ilvls lower, is doing 50% less dps than someone, dealing with the same or more mechanics, its a skill issue. Like I claimed before.

    I'm done talking about this unless you have an actual point besides "SoUrCeS!?!?"

  10. #1670
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Yes. Ill reiterate it all so we can both be done. Max theoretical dps (as in sims) changes at the rate of 1 ilvl = 1% dps difference. This is stated by the game director. This had a hundred threads about it when announced. This was and is proven true from sims. Idc if u don't believe me or want to cry about sources.

    You claim you don't care about sims, you care abt real data. Real data has mechanics so u won't reach max theoretical dps. But if someone 20 ilvls lower, is doing 50% less dps than someone, dealing with the same or more mechanics, its a skill issue. Like I claimed before.

    I'm done talking about this unless you have an actual point besides "SoUrCeS!?!?"
    I'm sorry but there is nothing wrong with someone having serious doubts about what you're saying, especially given you're referencing someone (who works on the game, for Pete's sake...) who has been proven mathematically incorrect several times. You don't have anything to back it up. You're using total conjecture and anecdotes and then trying to criticize someone for being extremely skeptical and asking for a valid source. It's not like a sealion troll asking for something impossible to prove. You said it yourself it was easily googled.

    I'm sorry this didn't turn out in your favor.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  11. #1671
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    you still need something to sweeten progression. If it's not a weekly nerf and not gear upgrades then what how do you do it?
    :shrug: I'm not sold on the design that an expac needs "cleared" before the new one comes out. Some of the best stories come from supposedly unbeatable bosses finally getting beaten. I'm sure there's some consistent X% over heroic damage done/DPS required, to put it crudely, (if we do away with mythic as is current, I mean) that really straddles the line of what's able to be done. Put the top tier difficulty at a few percentage points above that. See who can actually pull it off. You'll need both luck and skill to get it done.

    Give them their 15 minutes in the limelight when they do it. If you want to sweeten the pot then give them something like a buff that falls off after a set of time rather than gear. Just to throw an example out there, say a 10% damage output increase & 10% damage received reduction for 30 days so you can farm that raid more easily for a while. I think gear is a hollow pursuit after a certain point since it all becomes obsolete after a period of time anyway so keeping ilvl as the sacred cow feels off to me.

    The stat numbers on a piece are often "meh" after a certain point too due to diminishing returns. Things like proc/on use effects are what you're really after. So maybe instead of my earlier example that proc effect is something they "just have" without needing to devote a gear slot to it. The point is there are several other reward systems than just gear. The whole game is a gear piñata. Make it more interesting than even yet more gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zysis View Post
    So for a failed company that I've ever heard of in my 40 odd years of video gaming. Excellent. With that you think you can tell Blizzard a MUCH larger company with many successes that you should dictate what their game does. Hilarious sense of entitlement again.
    Have to point this out. You're showing yourself here, and it's kind of obvious. You have heard of them, and they've made ridiculously successful games. You just don't realize it. I'm apparently too new to post URLs. Look at their Wikipedia page. You would know them by their new name: Blizzard. They were acquired some time ago and fully merged last year.

  12. #1672
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm sorry but there is nothing wrong with someone having serious doubts about what you're saying, especially given you're referencing someone (who works on the game, for Pete's sake...) who has been proven mathematically incorrect several times. You don't have anything to back it up. You're using total conjecture and anecdotes and then trying to criticize someone for being extremely skeptical and asking for a valid source. It's not like a sealion troll asking for something impossible to prove. You said it yourself it was easily googled.

    I'm sorry this didn't turn out in your favor.
    The problem with your logic is that it implies that a person who is wrong once is likely wrong about anything and everything, meaning a person who is right once is now right about everything. The math in question was checked out multiple times by multiple people and generally speaking, was accurate. The issues come from people who changed items between sims - rather than just higher ilvls of the same item.

    When making comparisons, its important to remove as many variables as possible. The most common variable is a person - thats why we use machines and computers when attempting to recreate something multiple times as accurately as possible. In this situation, a sim is by far the best way to remove nearly all variables. So long as both 'tests' are conducted under identical conditions - same gear, same type of fight, same duration etc, rather than different items with higher ilvl, the results are perfectly acceptable as a comparison.

    The same player can do the same fight with the same people in the same gear 10 times in a night, and get 10 very different results. In the days of very firm breakpoints, a small ilvl difference could result in quite large differences in dps by allowing the player to reach those hard breakpoints - ARP being a great example, but also things like haste allowing extra dots within an increased damage window also used to make a big difference.

    Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-31 at 08:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  13. #1673
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Once every three months you get the Dungeon event and you MAY get a good item, sure. . .
    Weird way to spell almost every second week but ok. I don't get the grasping at straws.people will be as bored with free mythic raid gear as they are heroic.

    There isn't anything to do for people who don't like multiple difficulties because they threw a tantrum about not being able to instantly win every thing.

    They got everything they ever asked for.

  14. #1674
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Weird way to spell almost every second week but ok. I don't get the grasping at straws.people will be as bored with free mythic raid gear as they are heroic.

    There isn't anything to do for people who don't like multiple difficulties because they threw a tantrum about not being able to instantly win every thing.

    They got everything they ever asked for.
    ? The Dungeon event is the only one giving Heroic gear. TW gives normal gear. I think the event rotation for Dungeon is every eight weeks? So yes, every other month you have a chance to get a piece of Heroic gear. Which may or may not be the same slot as your legendary or tier.

  15. #1675
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I'm not gonna treat posts on mmochamp like a research paper. I dont feel the need to link sources to easily googled things
    Fair enough, expect to be called a liar if you don't though.

  16. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The problem with your logic is that it implies that a person who is wrong once is likely wrong about anything and everything, meaning a person who is right once is now right about everything. The math in question was checked out multiple times by multiple people and generally speaking, was accurate. The issues come from people who changed items between sims - rather than just higher ilvls of the same item.

    When making comparisons, its important to remove as many variables as possible. The most common variable is a person - thats why we use machines and computers when attempting to recreate something multiple times as accurately as possible. In this situation, a sim is by far the best way to remove nearly all variables. So long as both 'tests' are conducted under identical conditions - same gear, same type of fight, same duration etc, rather than different items with higher ilvl, the results are perfectly acceptable as a comparison.

    The same player can do the same fight with the same people in the same gear 10 times in a night, and get 10 very different results. In the days of very firm breakpoints, a small ilvl difference could result in quite large differences in dps by allowing the player to reach those hard breakpoints - ARP being a great example, but also things like haste allowing extra dots within an increased damage window also used to make a big difference.

    Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.
    I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  17. #1677
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.
    I NEVER said he was right because of who he is - fallacy fail. You did say that he is WRONG partly because of who he is though......so.......self burn?

    THIS is what i said:

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im really not sure what him being a part of the dev team has to do with this - you keep saying it over and over, but its really not relevant at all.
    In absolutely no way is it an appeal to authority - i VERY specifically state that his position in the company has no bearing on the results.

    BTW, its not hearsay, since it CAN be substantiated - you could have done the same tests yourself at the same time and had the EXACT same results.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-31 at 09:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  18. #1678
    Quote Originally Posted by chickengoat View Post
    :shrug: I'm not sold on the design that an expac needs "cleared" before the new one comes out. Some of the best stories come from supposedly unbeatable bosses finally getting beaten. I'm sure there's some consistent X% over heroic damage done/DPS required, to put it crudely, (if we do away with mythic as is current, I mean) that really straddles the line of what's able to be done. Put the top tier difficulty at a few percentage points above that. See who can actually pull it off. You'll need both luck and skill to get it done.

    Give them their 15 minutes in the limelight when they do it. If you want to sweeten the pot then give them something like a buff that falls off after a set of time rather than gear. Just to throw an example out there, say a 10% damage output increase & 10% damage received reduction for 30 days so you can farm that raid more easily for a while. I think gear is a hollow pursuit after a certain point since it all becomes obsolete after a period of time anyway so keeping ilvl as the sacred cow feels off to me.

    The stat numbers on a piece are often "meh" after a certain point too due to diminishing returns. Things like proc/on use effects are what you're really after. So maybe instead of my earlier example that proc effect is something they "just have" without needing to devote a gear slot to it. The point is there are several other reward systems than just gear. The whole game is a gear piñata. Make it more interesting than even yet more gear.
    Just a bit of history so that we are on the same page. The issue that blizzard noticed and tried to resolve is the following :
    When a raid group goes into a raid of 10 bosses and manages after multiple wipes to down the first boss then the second then the third. They will want the following week to reach the fourth boss with more ease. But experience and knowledge isn't enough to dramatically reduce the numbers of attempt before a group is able to down these bosses again before reaching the new boss encounters.
    To help the raid groups have a better experience the challenges have been made harder and harder as you progress into the instance and an increasing debuff was applied each week. The unfortunate side effect is that raid groups felt the challenge was lessen due too this increasing nerf, and the satisfaction was lessen as well.

    In order to keep this nice and healthy, they changed from having an explicit buff/nerf to acquiring more power through gear rewards. As you progress through the instance, you acquire the gear to get with more ease to the next challenge.

    TL;DR; gear is not the end reward, the challenge is. Gear is the tool to experiment end challenges without the hastle of wiping in chain on previous bosses.

    So yeah maybe we should indeed have something in game that reflects a bit more that the accomplishments are more interesting than the tools we use to reach our goals. We already have achievements, mounts, titles and mascots but there might a whole new paradigm of rewards and exposure to explore in order to put the incentive on the accomplishments.

    Quote Originally Posted by chickengoat View Post
    Have to point this out. You're showing yourself here, and it's kind of obvious. You have heard of them, and they've made ridiculously successful games. You just don't realize it. I'm apparently too new to post URLs. Look at their Wikipedia page. You would know them by their new name: Blizzard. They were acquired some time ago and fully merged last year.
    Vicarious visions might have some talent, but their game history is really weak. It's just game orders, remasters and porting game to other platforms. They did fine jobs with some ports in their early years and lately with diablo 2 (but some are very regrettable, crash bandicoot and ctr are really bad). Not the kind of company that will take risk or innovate greatly on any genre.

  19. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I NEVER said he was right because of who he is - fallacy fail. You did say that he is WRONG partly because of who he is though......so.......self burn?

    THIS is what i said:



    In absolutely no way is it an appeal to authority - i VERY specifically state that his position in the company has no bearing on the results.

    BTW, its not hearsay, since it CAN be substantiated - you could have done the same tests yourself at the same time and had the EXACT same results.
    That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

    And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  20. #1680
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.
    Lay off amber-johnny trial please that has nothing to do with hearsay. It's just a non factual claim.

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