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  1. #1681
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

    And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.
    Sigh - at no point did he say "im a game dev so you should believe everything i say". The fallacy doesnt work here, at all. You are WAY off base here. Dont rely on a fallacy if you dont actually understand it at all. Your unwillingness to look at the dozens of sims done by many players as a result of this discussion, and unwillingness to do the test yourself is weak - EXTREMELY weak.

    "You can test it yourself" is actually an extremely STRONG argument - its one of the core features of the scientific method - the ability to reproduce results, which is even stronger when the doubter can conduct the tests themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  2. #1682
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sigh - at no point did he say "im a game dev so you should believe everything i say". The fallacy doesnt work here, at all. You are WAY off base here. Dont rely on a fallacy if you dont actually understand it at all. Your unwillingness to look at the dozens of sims done by many players as a result of this discussion, and unwillingness to do the test yourself is weak - EXTREMELY weak.
    He didn’t say he was. That’s not even what that fallacy means. Saying “so-so” said it because of who they are is how it works.

    And again, hearsay is not evidence. If you think it is, that’s on you.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  3. #1683
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    He didn’t say he was. That’s not even what that fallacy means. Saying “so-so” said it because of who they are is how it works.

    And again, hearsay is not evidence. If you think it is, that’s on you.
    its not hearsay - stop watching the amber - depp trial my man, you are so, SO wrong here. You cant even decide what the appeal to reason fallacy is, just stop - this is getting worse and worse for you. You literally just completely contradicted yourself and you dont even realise.

    I NEVER said 'hes a game dev so hes right'. He never said "im a game dev so im right". So why do you keep saying its a logical fallacy to agree with what he said based on the evidence provided my numerous members of the community running sims? Hint: its not.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-31 at 10:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  4. #1684
    I've always had this opinion about sims and logs :
    * sims are just a tool for you to find out mathematically what could be the most interesting choice of stats, gear, talent amongst those that suit your playstyle
    * logs are what you can actually deliver. When comparing different classes and specs, refrain from using mythic logs, the pool of players is very limited compared to heroic logs and a lot of excellent players will be absent in the former. Don't you max percentiles, use 75% as you will have to deal with mechanics, movements, etc. and on average 75% is what you can expect to do if you're a great player.

    If you're not trying to break the limits of the game (race for world first raider, mm+28, gladiator arena champion, etc.), don't bother spending too much time comparing specs output. Consider the tools of the spec, the flow of the spec, its appearance, if you like it and it speaks to you then you'll do great and be genuinely interested in getting better with it.

    I've adopted this mentality with every members of my guilds and it has never done any wrong, neither to the progress nor the guild spirit.

  5. #1685
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I've always had this opinion about sims and logs :
    * sims are just a tool for you to find out mathematically what could be the most interesting choice of stats, gear, talent amongst those that suit your playstyle
    * logs are what you can actually deliver. When comparing different classes and specs, refrain from using mythic logs, the pool of players is very limited compared to heroic logs and a lot of excellent players will be absent in the former. Don't you max percentiles, use 75% as you will have to deal with mechanics, movements, etc. and on average 75% is what you can expect to do if you're a great player.

    If you're not trying to break the limits of the game (race for world first raider, mm+28, gladiator arena champion, etc.), don't bother spending too much time comparing specs output. Consider the tools of the spec, the flow of the spec, its appearance, if you like it and it speaks to you then you'll do great and be genuinely interested in getting better with it.

    I've adopted this mentality with every members of my guilds and it has never done any wrong, neither to the progress nor the guild spirit.
    Agree with all this, however, when making the comparison of same stats, same spec, same class, etc etc etc, and all you want to see is what an increase of XYZ ilvls will make, you need something consistent and reliable, removing as many variables as possible. When people look at sims and think "ok cool thats how much dps i can do" thats obviously a mistake. Also a mistake would be trying to decide between warrior dps and hunter dps and using a sim of each as the deciding factor - like you correctly stated, thats not the whole picture - different classes/specs bring different utility and each have benifits the other doesnt.

    Maybe your team is really melee heavy so even though the warrior sims higher, the hunter might be the better choice. Maybe you want to play mage but you really need a brez so lock is a better choice. Those are variables that can be very important in that comparison, but when comparing ilvls on the same toon, with the same gear, just trying to work out what the max potential difference is, a sim is the best tool.

    I remember years ago playing with a guy who was a fantastic shaman - all three specs but mostly enhance. He rocked up one night on warrior and when i asked him why he was swapping, he said "it sims way higher than my shammy". His dps was bloody terrible. Its true that his shammy simmed lower than his warrior, but he had fuck all experience on his warrior, so his muscle memory was average at best, and he just couldnt play it nearly as well as his shammy. The sim was accurate, but it was used incorrectly.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2022-05-31 at 10:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  6. #1686
    when I want to check how much I can deal I compare myself with the best that use the same optimization I do, check their resource management, cd usage, the timeline of their cast, proc usage, etc.

    I will seldom go to the sims for the answer except maybe to check the APL and the timeline (but it is very difficult to read most of the times)

  7. #1687
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    when I want to check how much I can deal I compare myself with the best that use the same optimization I do, check their resource management, cd usage, the timeline of their cast, proc usage, etc.

    I will seldom go to the sims for the answer except maybe to check the APL and the timeline (but it is very difficult to read most of the times)
    How would you compare two identical characters, with identical gear, and identical specs, with literally the only difference being that one character had 20 ilvls over the other (identical stats on gear, identical gear, just higher ilvl versions of the same gear)? Remember, you are ONLY trying to see the difference the 20 ilvls make - nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  8. #1688
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    its not hearsay - stop watching the amber - depp trial my man, you are so, SO wrong here. You cant even decide what the appeal to reason fallacy is, just stop - this is getting worse and worse for you. You literally just completely contradicted yourself and you dont even realise.

    I NEVER said 'hes a game dev so hes right'. He never said "im a game dev so im right". So why do you keep saying its a logical fallacy to agree with what he said based on the evidence provided my numerous members of the community running sims? Hint: its not.
    You don’t seem to understand how that fallacy works or what hearsay is. I can’t help you at this point if you’re going to be deliberately obtuse and superfluous.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  9. #1689
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How would you compare two identical characters, with identical gear, and identical specs, with literally the only difference being that one character had 20 ilvls over the other (identical stats on gear, identical gear, just higher ilvl versions of the same gear)? Remember, you are ONLY trying to see the difference the 20 ilvls make - nothing else.
    my bad I misunderstood the situation.
    I'm not sure I've ever found myself looking for the answer. I guess I would never know because a lot of different gear pieces provide different output gains. Weapons and trinkets are really strong pieces compared to wrists for instance.

    Comparing two sims should give you two figures that you can divide for an approximate answer of the % of output gained.

    Why would you be interested in this figure ? That's the real question ^^

  10. #1690
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    my bad I misunderstood the situation.
    I'm not sure I've ever found myself looking for the answer. I guess I would never know because a lot of different gear pieces provide different output gains. Weapons and trinkets are really strong pieces compared to wrists for instance.

    Comparing two sims should give you two figures that you can divide for an approximate answer of the % of output gained.

    Why would you be interested in this figure ? That's the real question ^^
    Because the discussion at hand appeared when players started crying that a 20 ilvl difference between two identical players resulted in a 50% or more difference in output. Ion was being interviewed by preach (iirc) and stated that the data does NOT support this, and that the data very clearly shows an approximately 1% gain in output per 1ilvl gained. He went on to say the most likely difference in those 50% scenarios is player skill. This set off a LOT of players who had been hiding behind the gear gap as an excuse for their poor performance. This was made worse when MANY community members ran sims on their toons with identical loot - the only difference being what VERSION (ilvl) it was, and the results of the 20ilvl difference ranged between just over 19% and just under 21%, confirming what Ion had said. This REALLY upset some already very upset players, as they now couldnt hide behind the ilvl gap any more.

    Like i said, using a sim for comparison only works in very specific scenarios, and this is one of them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You don’t seem to understand how that fallacy works or what hearsay is. I can’t help you at this point if you’re going to be deliberately obtuse and superfluous.
    Hearsay is using information that cannot be substantiated - this information CAN be substantiated, either by looking up the results of other peoples testing, or for an even more reliable source, do the test yourself. It can be substantiated = it is NOT hearsay.

    Nothing stated so far involves an appeal to authority, his role within the company has only been brought up by YOU - no one else has used it as a reason to believe him, and he himself did not use his position within the company to support his claims. And again, if you dont trust him, and dont believe him, DO THE TEST FOR YOURSELF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  11. #1691
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.
    Hahaha. Nice own goal. You are the one who said he was wrong because of who he is. When you reply to comments do you just black out so you forget what you said previously?

    Still waiting in your source where the same gear with a 20 ilvl inc is a 50% inc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  12. #1692
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Because the discussion at hand appeared when players started crying that a 20 ilvl difference between two identical players resulted in a 50% or more difference in output. Ion was being interviewed by preach (iirc) and stated that the data does NOT support this, and that the data very clearly shows an approximately 1% gain in output per 1ilvl gained. He went on to say the most likely difference in those 50% scenarios is player skill. This set off a LOT of players who had been hiding behind the gear gap as an excuse for their poor performance. This was made worse when MANY community members ran sims on their toons with identical loot - the only difference being what VERSION (ilvl) it was, and the results of the 20ilvl difference ranged between just over 19% and just under 21%, confirming what Ion had said. This REALLY upset some already very upset players, as they now couldnt hide behind the ilvl gap any more.

    Like i said, using a sim for comparison only works in very specific scenarios, and this is one of them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hearsay is using information that cannot be substantiated - this information CAN be substantiated, either by looking up the results of other peoples testing, or for an even more reliable source, do the test yourself. It can be substantiated = it is NOT hearsay.

    Nothing stated so far involves an appeal to authority, his role within the company has only been brought up by YOU - no one else has used it as a reason to believe him, and he himself did not use his position within the company to support his claims. And again, if you dont trust him, and dont believe him, DO THE TEST FOR YOURSELF.
    So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  13. #1693
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

    And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.
    You need sources when you make a claim. You don't need sources for accepted knowledge. What you are doing is like saying that the earth is flat and then asking people to prove that it isn't, even though the method to find out for yourself as well as all of the documentation and data to say the earth isn't flat is right there in Google.

    Try again buddy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.
    This coming from a guy who doesn't know when he needs to cite sources for an argument. Awkward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #1694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    To be fair, I personally think this is a knock-on effect of Blizzard's strange insistence on having finding a guild be one of the most unintuitive, cumbersome and often times flat-out anti-social journeys a player can embark upon. They do not give players any tools to find guilds (there's the guild finder technically but it's a joke). You either know somebody who knows somebody or you broadcast on third party websites in the hope a recruitment officer sees you. I think a lot of this games' issues with raiding in general could be solved if Blizzard just sat down and created a UI element for guild recruitment which helped match like-minded players with one another.
    Why would Blizzard change the game like that? if you can't find a guild but you are still willing to play the game, they will receive compensation from you xfering to another server, or going solo and "lose" time, eventually you start playing less and less and you cancel, but until you quit you still pay your subscription, meaning Blizz still earns money, so what we see is a conflict of interest, Blizz does not change some clearly shitty part of the game because they still get your money.

  15. #1695
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.
    This is from the Oxford Dictionary: "information received from other people which cannot be substantiated"

    Like i said, not only can it be substantiated, the test and results can be replicated by you - just load up a sim, put the same gear in, and boom - same result. The information and its source CAN be substantiated, so it is NOT hearsay.

    You need to stop with the flat earther "logic".
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  16. #1696
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is from the Oxford Dictionary: "information received from other people which cannot be substantiated"

    Like i said, not only can it be substantiated, the test and results can be replicated by you - just load up a sim, put the same gear in, and boom - same result. The information and its source CAN be substantiated, so it is NOT hearsay.
    Ok, substantiate it. Telling someone “do it yourself “ is not substantiating it. Claiming “they” or “them” did it cannot be substantiated.

    You’re wrong and I honestly think you know you are. No shame, not here to embarrass you.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  17. #1697
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Ok, substantiate it. Telling someone “do it yourself “ is not substantiating it. Claiming “they” or “them” did it cannot be substantiated.

    You’re wrong and I honestly think you know you are. No shame, not here to embarrass you.
    Wrong again - it does not say it must be substantiated, it simply says hearsay is when something CAN NOT be substantiated - and all of this can be - by you - you are simply choosing not to. You are doing this because you know what you will find if you go looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  18. #1698
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Wrong again - it does not say it must be substantiated, it simply says hearsay is when something CAN NOT be substantiated - and all of this can be - by you - you are simply choosing not to. You are doing this because you know what you will find if you go looking.
    You keep proving you don’t know what that word means.

    Joe already proved it was wrong. His cousin said so too on this forum. Her roommate confirmed it.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

  19. #1699
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    You keep proving you don’t know what that word means.

    Joe already proved it was wrong. His cousin said so too on this forum. Her roommate confirmed it.
    Those are examples of hearsay because they cannot be substantiated - you can literally load a sim right now and substantiate all the claims made. You could also find countless sources of other people doing the same thing. You choosing to ignore all of that, and choosing not to run the test yourself does not make all that other data hearsay. You are very confused. Its over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  20. #1700
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Those are examples of hearsay because they cannot be substantiated - you can literally load a sim right now and substantiate all the claims made. You could also find countless sources of other people doing the same thing. You choosing to ignore all of that, and choosing not to run the test yourself does not make all that other data hearsay. You are very confused. Its over.
    They can be substantiated.

    You’re slipping and you’re trying to grasp at straws.
    Want a livable wage? Get a real job.

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