STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Ryzeth]

You could try getting good at the game. Billy who's too bad to not stand in fire, doesn't deserve loot from the boss.

It's fine to not have everyone seeing every single piece of content.

[xVicarious]

Tell us more about your wipefest. I want those details.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The content is hard. I play this game since Wrath and it is much harder and exhausting than it was before. I wouldn’t mind if they made it easier, added some fun side quests and brought back archeology to keep me entertained. However, I found a solution for this. I started role playing, quit raiding and farming dailies. I just do whatever I want. I barely farm m+ since I find Torghast more fun. I just do up to 4 dungeons a week. When it comes to clearing the tier I just ask friends to help me kill last boss or buy a boost.

[Angelpunk18]

Why are people so utterly terrified of failing something even once?

Is it because it shows them that they're not as good as they think they are?

I'll answer this with a post I made on another thread, but I think it applies, I replied to a guy saying that no one ever talks in a group anymore

"You know why this happens less and less? I'll give you an example, last week I was running some M+, I'm a fairly decent player, 2.3k IO, 262 ilvl, 7/11H with AOTC for denathrius and Sylvanas... while we were in the dungeon the got to one of the affix groups, we kill happen to kill the guy that gives you a invis and speed and the tank didn't move, he/she was leading the dungeon, when I saw him/her stay still I asked: Are we skipping or are we gonna pull the next pack?... the only thing he/she said was: STFU.

That has nothing to do with the game, wow has a lot of issues, gameplay, story, systems, features, content (or lack there of), but there are also lots of problems with people themselves.

I'm latin, I play in zul'jin, and everytime we pug someone from ragnaros people start complaining without even seeing what the player has to offer, it happened yesterday. Our raid leader pugged a DH from rag and people were going "come on, don't bring shit players", "why raggies", "yo no hablo espanol", "taco taco", shit like that, I was so happy when that guy DESTROYED everyone in DPS.

TL/DR: Wow has a lot of problems, but a lot of other problems have nothing to do with the game itself, but with people being assholes"

[Beefhammer]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

The only endgame content that is hard is mythic raiding. Which was specifically designed for those that want the challenge. Everything else is easy to somewhat challenging. M+ depends on the affixes, but aren't really comparable to mythic raiding. Maybe top end competitive PvP, but still most of the games is designed for the lowest common denominator, with would easily be 50% or more of the player base.

[Shakzor]

Ah, the good ol' Git Gud meme. I still remember GC's thoughts about it.

Well, at some point, you can't argue otherwise anymore. We have 4 difficulties and the BY FAR easiest, is apparently still too hard and "for the top 0.01%". At some point it becomes that Simpsons meme "Am i wrong? No, it's the kids that are at fault!" just with "difficulty" for the easiest content.

[stutt-]

The content is hard. I play this game since Wrath and it is much harder and exhausting than it was before. I wouldn’t mind if they made it easier, added some fun side quests and brought back archeology to keep me entertained. However, I found a solution for this. I started role playing, quit raiding and farming dailies. I just do whatever I want. I barely farm m+ since I find Torghast more fun. I just do up to 4 dungeons a week. When it comes to clearing the tier I just ask friends to help me kill last boss or buy a boost.

I love your honesty.

[MoanaLisa]

At this point I believe that blizz doesnt want pugs to thrive, they want them phased out entirely. All raid difficulties are too difficult for pugs, just about every tier has a boss that seems to outright be designed to break pugs apart entirely.

Why? To foster a sense of community through guilds? To avoid people claiming wow difficulty is a joke? Because they just believe more people want this? Who can guess. But, once you look at it through that lense, their difficulty choices seems to make sense.

Looking at it through any other viewpoint, makes blizz out to be utterly incompetent. Personally Id say guild play is a relic of a bygone era, and if thats true, the difficulty needs to reflect it, severe shift in difficulty required.

That's an interesting post since it says something uncommon. I do agree that Blizzard broke guilds in Cataclysm and they have never been the same since. Casual social guilds are hard to find; good ones where people stay playing even harder. I think that pugs will always be with us but having a look and doing a total revamp of guilds and incentives for guilds would be useful. It can hardly be worse. I wouldn't change the content necessarily. I would try to design to incentivize people to be less exclusive and more inclusive.

[crusadernero]

Well, at some point, you can't argue otherwise anymore. We have 4 difficulties and the BY FAR easiest, is apparently still too hard and "for the top 0.01%". At some point it becomes that Simpsons meme "Am i wrong? No, it's the kids that are at fault!" just with "difficulty" for the easiest content.

Id' wager LFR today is harder than many, many previous raids. Especially since its random lfg. Normal is also harder than old raids too. Heroic is getting harder and harder also. Mythic I dont care about, cause those that do that is a tiny, tiny minority of the playerbase. Most players NEVER give a shit about it and never will.

Now the question should be; What good comes out of making these raids harder and harder in almost every difficulty? It doesnt matter if LFR is easiest, normal bit harder, HC harder & Mythic VERY hard when every difficulty in themself gets harder. Yes each difficulty is easier/harder between eachother, but the overall difficulty rises.

So - whats the point? Why? Does masses of wow players get attracted to this kind of playstyle? Do most wow players engage in content that gradually gets harder and harder? Is that the goal here? Remember, most of this game is rather easy. Except from raids and now also dungeons with m+.

Now you could say "but it doesnt matter, if you dont want to raid, dont raid" and "Well LFR is there for very easy access". While that is somewhat true, it also falls flat on the premise that LFR is utterly useless except from seeing the inside of a raid. The gear that drops is bad, the gear also looks more shite in LFR, it holds no real value within the game.

It all boils down to wether or not its worthwhile creating harder content(overall for all modes) when in reality very few really cares a whole lot about clearing really hard raids. People want to raid to get meaningful progression on a character and you wont get that in LFR. Neither in normal. it just doesnt sit right.


Something is just off.

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You could try getting good at the game. Billy who's too bad to not stand in fire, doesn't deserve loot from the boss.

It's fine to not have everyone seeing every single piece of content.

See this right here. Makes no sense. why wouldnt Blizzard be interested in having players see the content? I mean they must care, cause they did add the awesome LFR raid feature.

Better question is - Why make raids harder and harder? makes no sense. Whats the deal here? Is gaming some sort of sport were only the best can take part? Lets face it, we are all shite in this game compared to the mythic world first raiders. How many players gets attracted to this game because of mythic raiding? Most players dont engage in it, so few does. How many players gets attracted to this game because of LFR? Probably no one cause its not a cool experience.

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I'll answer this with a post I made on another thread, but I think it applies, I replied to a guy saying that no one ever talks in a group anymore

"You know why this happens less and less? I'll give you an example, last week I was running some M+, I'm a fairly decent player, 2.3k IO, 262 ilvl, 7/11H with AOTC for denathrius and Sylvanas... while we were in the dungeon the got to one of the affix groups, we kill happen to kill the guy that gives you a invis and speed and the tank didn't move, he/she was leading the dungeon, when I saw him/her stay still I asked: Are we skipping or are we gonna pull the next pack?... the only thing he/she said was: STFU.

That has nothing to do with the game, wow has a lot of issues, gameplay, story, systems, features, content (or lack there of), but there are also lots of problems with people themselves.

I'm latin, I play in zul'jin, and everytime we pug someone from ragnaros people start complaining without even seeing what the player has to offer, it happened yesterday. Our raid leader pugged a DH from rag and people were going "come on, don't bring shit players", "why raggies", "yo no hablo espanol", "taco taco", shit like that, I was so happy when that guy DESTROYED everyone in DPS.

TL/DR: Wow has a lot of problems, but a lot of other problems have nothing to do with the game itself, but with people being assholes"

I understand what you are saying and I agree on it, but its Blizzard who creates the content were this happens. In a m+ setting, especially in high keys, its pressure on every player from the start. It nourishes egosentric behaviour and a expectation that everyone in the grp is there to perform 100% and no mistake is tolareted.

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The only endgame content that is hard is mythic raiding. Which was specifically designed for those that want the challenge. Everything else is easy to somewhat challenging. M+ depends on the affixes, but aren't really comparable to mythic raiding. Maybe top end competitive PvP, but still most of the games is designed for the lowest common denominator, with would easily be 50% or more of the player base.

If by easy you are talking about LFR, then Blizzard is being unjust with over 50% or more of the playerbase. Its a shit compromise to make everyone see the inside of a raid.

[Echeyakee]

I find it funny that we literally have more raid difficulties than one would realistically need, ranging from brain dead "just show up" LFR to "way too overturned to bother" start of the patch mythic, and people are still willing to die on this hill just to argue.

[KayRule]

Honestly they should use everything they developed for Torghast and Island Expidtions and apply it to new repeatable content that uses older raid and dungeon environments. They spend all this time and resources on these raid environments that are relevent for barely a full expansion for an incredibly tiny fraction of players. And then an even smaller fraction will give them a visit on the arbitrary week Blizzard decides Timewalking for that Era can be accessed.

It'd be great to use these giant environments like the Throne of Thunder and the Emerald Nightmare for repeatable roguelite dungeoncrawling content.

[confety]

it feels half of the comments are just wrong facts written by 3/12 HC andies that are just encapsulated in their part of the game.

As someone who has played since basically forever in every difficulty this is my observation

LFR is a miserable experience.

Normal is not hard, but its really inaccesible to casual players who dont want to suffer in LFR because of the 20 systems these players have to follow or they wont be accepted in groups/kicked out of them

Blizzard is not going to rework either difficulty, the best thing it can happen is normal mode becoming more accesible by reducing the obnoxious ammount of posible power creep and preparation needed for it.

No conduits/legendaries/covenant abilities/soulbinds, dragonflight will probably make Normal more accesible, as blizzard will never rework LFR to be similar to FF14 normal raid format.

i would still add shortcuts and additional QOL mechanics to normal mode tho

[Shakzor]

I find it funny that we literally have more raid difficulties than one would realistically need, ranging from brain dead "just show up" LFR to "way too overturned to bother" start of the patch mythic, and people are still willing to die on this hill just to argue.

Pretty much. At some point, someone should admit "maybe i am the problem with my refusal to give ANY effort or time and not the game."
I mean we have people here complaining that it's not hitting a training dummy, so it's too hard, when one can pretty much ignore ALL mechanics in LFR (i remember being baffled how braindead Blackhand was in LFR compared to even normal) and addons that tell you what to do when and when to do it exist aswell.
When Blizzard and the vast majority of players seem to think the difficulties LFR up to Mythic are each fine for their audience, perhaps it's not "too hard" or "catering to the 0.01%"

Anyways, the people here complaining how "hard" WoW has become are probably an even tinier amount of people than there is players competing for world first mythic races. Making everything easier and easier actually drives away players aswell, so the current way is pretty optimal.

Normal is not hard, but its really inaccesible to casual players who dont want to suffer in LFR because of the 20 systems these players have to follow or they wont be accepted in groups/kicked out of them

That's purely a playerbase problem tho. There is nothing Blizzard can do against this and people can just make their own groups. Not being accepted because your ilvl is 222 instead of 223 or whatever , isn't something that Blizzard can force. Playerbase makes their groups how they want and the one that don't care about optimal stuff usually get filled fast, so only the "be mythic world first" as requirement for normal stay visible

[AcidicSyn]

You can have decent or above average skills with casual hours (15~ hours a week is the average for pc gamers iirc.) but you will never be great.

Muscle memory and quick ingame decision making/pattern recognition takes time and practice, you also need time to research and intake information every expansion launch and patch.

I get your guys point but let's not kid ourselves into thinking there is someone like a "casual" mythic raider, that's delusional.

Eh, considering I was a mythic raider prior to just deciding it wasn't worth forcing the schedule to work, I'd have to respectfully disagree with your assumption.

especially by your given definition of 15 hours a week, you'd be shocked how many mythic raiding guilds fit their entire weeks lockout into that timeline lol. Not world firsters mind, but mythic raiders none the less.

That said though, that really isn't the point either of us were making anyway. The point was that's its ignorant to assume casual and bad are synonyms.

[Celement]

The content is hard. I play this game since Wrath and it is much harder and exhausting than it was before. I wouldn’t mind if they made it easier, added some fun side quests and brought back archeology to keep me entertained. However, I found a solution for this. I started role playing, quit raiding and farming dailies. I just do whatever I want. I barely farm m+ since I find Torghast more fun. I just do up to 4 dungeons a week. When it comes to clearing the tier I just ask friends to help me kill last boss or buy a boost.

Is the game harder if you compare the same modes side to side or is it harder when you purposely go into the harder difficulties?

I think heroic icc and current heroics are fairly close in terms of difficulty.

[Glorious Leader]

I think heroic icc and current heroics are fairly close in terms of difficulty.

Thats because you're either ignorant or want to defend the current game design since you enjoy it. It is not factually true in any sense. Raid fights are far complex and even after the prune playing your character is also equally far more onerous. Ill wait here and you can tell me the equivelant to the fucking free loot that was the airship fight or the tank and spank that happened right after it.

[Celement]

Thats because you're either ignorant or want to defend the current game design since you enjoy it. It is not factually true in any sense. Raid fights are far complex and even after the prune playing your character is also equally far more onerous. Ill wait here and you can tell me the equivelant to the fucking free loot that was the airship fight or the tank and spank that happened right after it.

The first boss of the current raid that is arguably easier then the trash leading to him till mythic?

As for classes that depends on the class properly using a mage to trigger your dps buff via shields and not killing yourself or taking excessive damage wasn't really that simple.

[Estherna]

I'm afraid you are mistaken on a point. The issue doesn't lie on Blizzard making the game for the top 0.01% of the players, because they don't really do that. They sure communicate around Mythic+, competitions and WF Race, but they provide several levels of difficulties. In my opinion, the issue lie with the players believing that they should engage in every activity of this game as if they were doing the WF Race or Mythic +15.

I'm not up to date with all changes made in WoW, I stopped during BfA. However, as far as I understand, the issues back then are the same today. Except if you have a group of friends who are in the same approach as you, you will end up having to do most of the endgame content with PUG. However, for Mythic and Raiding, most of the playerbase have internalized that you must play as the top raiders do, with the same talents, the same rotations, the same gears, etc. This creates stress and toxicity, as this internalized behavior conducts to abuse and mock every person who would dare not playing by following guides published on IcyVeins or elsewhere. The community needs to learn to chill and relax, and not treat every wipe as if it was the worst thing that ever happened.

But it is not to say that Blizzard is actually free of blame. Failure in Endgame content as a too high price which is useless in the scope of the gameplay. Punishment may provide more stakes in a activity you are engaged in, but too much punishment will create stress, anxiety and ultimately toxicity. You shouldn't be punished by having your key degraded when you fail the dungeon, not having it upgraded is enough. When you wipe in a raid, you shouldn't lose 10 minutes to rez and come back to where the boss is. These doesn't bring anything to the game itself, it is just tedious and boring, and in turn make that failure is less tolerated by the playerbase.

The game should allow you to fail. Failure is normal, it is through it you become better at something. You learn of your failures and try to become better the next time. And so on. But if at any fail, you get abuse by others team members, or the punishment is too harsh, you will be demotivated to actually learn and will not engage in the content anymore.

Finally, Blizzard should make difficult content for the sake of difficulty itself, because difficult content is fun in itself. Dark Souls series is there as an example of that. By tying the best rewards in the game with the most difficult content, the game creates a frustration in the playerbase. Having the best gear available is the objective of an MMO after all, so by putting it in the most difficult content, they create frustration in the playerbase as the large majority can't hope to even try this content, as it depends time, skill and a network of friends in the same mindset.

They should come back to the old system of honor/conquest badges for the gear, so everyone can access to the best gear, and let players engage in mythic+ and mythic raiding for the fun of it. Just think how less stressful the game would be if you were doing Mythic+ for the simple fun of trying to push as high as you can, without fearing to miss a chance for a better gear if you can't complete the dungeon on time. You can then give titles or pets or mounts or specific transmog to those who achieve these contents.

People loved the Mage Tower because it was difficult for the sake of it being difficult. You weren't force to engage in difficult content to upgrade your character, you did it if you wished to do it. Yogg-Saron without watchers was the same thing. And the only rewards were cosmetic.

Tldr; Difficulty isn't bad, what's bad is to push people to engage in difficult content to obtain better gear, thus pressuring everyone in performing as hard as they can, creating toxicity and stress in the playerbase, making playing this content a chore rather that a fun activity to engage in. Don't tie gearing to difficult content and let difficult content only reward be cosmetic, so players can challenge themselves for the sake of it, not because they fear to be left out if they don't.

[Glorious Leader]

The first boss of the current raid that is arguably easier then the trash leading to him till mythic?

As for classes that depends on the class properly using a mage to trigger your dps buff via shields and not killing yourself or taking excessive damage wasn't really that simple.

Which is still infinitely easier than saurfang or the air ship event. You are objectively wrong but want to defend the current system. And no it doesn't depend Arcane mage now is vastly more complex than arcane icc and thats probably the most brain dead spec I can think of currently.

[Celement]

Which is still infinitely easier than saurfang the air ship event. You are objectively wrong but want to defend the current system.

No I can say guardian till mythic was easier. I think you really misremembering airship or are assuming current raiding is harder then it is.