STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Hctaz]

Sadly a good portion of the community complained during even cata that the game was "too easy" even though they didnt play beyond low/lowest difficulties. I dont know if that was a factor or not, but it was very real. I am surprised they have increased the OVERALL difficulty of what is essentially FLEX so much - flex was EXTREMELY simple in SoO, with only the last couple of bosses offering any real challenge for people experienced in raiding. Now there does seem to be a lot more going on, tighter timers, more punishing abilities, etc.

What I absolutely do NOT agree with is that they cater to or design the game for the top 10%, top 5%, or top 0.01% - i just dont see ANY evidence of that at all.

Not the entire game, no, but it does seem like the overall difficulty of the game is increasing alongside the Mythic difficulty increasing.

I do think that last part of the quote is off... sorta? I don't think they're designing the game to be "fun" for the top % of players, but I do think they have (at least in the past) designed the game in such a way that it's... strongly encouraging these top players to keep playing more and more. Legion was where I think it was at its most obvious with the RNG legendary system, the endless artifact power grind, and the random titanforged procs. I got so burnt out in Legion that I quit raiding entirely, so I really can't speak as to how this has or has not gotten better since.

But the grinds they had in place were "designed for" the top % of players in the sense that they were designed to entrap them. Which... isn't something that hadn't been talked about in heavy detail in the past. I remember discussions about this very thing happening during Wrath when top players would clear a raid, get full BiS, and then cancel their subs and go inactive for 3 months while the next raid was being released. They sorta hinted that the Thunderforged system was put in place in MoP to get them to stick around a little longer, and it seems like this philosophy exploded during Legion.

I don't know too many people who think that those type of systems are really fun, so when people say that the game is "designed for" these players, I think what they really mean is that it's engineered in a similar fashion to how a casino is: They're trying to keep you there as long as possible. The more hardcore you are and the faster you'd normally clear the content and leave, the more likely you are to feel incentivized to grind out every possible advantage. It kinda seems sinister in a way. Maybe I'm reading into it too hard, but that's the way it has come across since the days of MoP. "We want to give players a reason to keep running raids even after they've gotten all the gear they want." But why tho? LOL

[Caprias]

Succesfully getting CE only needs a fraction of the apm and muscle memory of competitive rts, only a fraction of coordination, decision making and reaction time of competitive moba and fps, only a fraction of the time investment of those games 0.01%.

Your argument is ridiculous.

[Djuntas]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

Thank you, and yes Asmongold is right, as always...Hes our best ambassador the game has ever had. I enjoy TBCC because its easier - I actually get rewards for raiding without having to wipe and waste my time. Its also fun to just blast raids and know you did well in a ZA timed run and its 12 mins left when you on the last boss etc...Goal post just moves in TBCC...Like on retail just clearing it is what you want, on TBCC you want 0 wipes and good speed...Same thing really.

[arkanon]

I am struggling to understand the labored likely poor point you are trying to make...

Fundamentally the difference is the mentality and approach they take to it. It's the same stadium?

Can you just plainly spell out your argument you are shit at allegory.

The point im making is that claiming the only difference between LFR and mythic raiding is "a few more abilities" is like saying the only difference between a nissan GTR and a nissan leaf is a few more HP. If all you do is look at similarities, obviously there are some, but the differences that exist are substantial, and dramatically change the product.

[Diaphin]

I find it offensive how they tune the raids for the "world race" and then go and nerf it over and over again until it's balanced for normal players.

Also, why was the tier crafting closed for 8 weeks? Cause the world first raiders would abuse it. Why? Why does this game get designed for an event every 6 months. It's so disrespectful. It's no wonder players left.

More likely so that it is released once people in LFR are able to get the complete set, considering how it was released shortly after Jailer LFR.

[Zorgulon]

This is also what has lead to the abysmal leveling. The horridly easy, short dungeons. The casuals (which I am indeed a part of myself) are SO afraid to LOSE, to FAIL, to not get progress THEN AND THERE or having to actually put in some EFFORT!
LFR is supposed to be a cakewalk. Here you will SEE the content. (I don't like that it actually awards almost raid lvl gear)
Normal is supposed to require SOME work, some wipes, some mechanics and knowledge. I like normals myself, cuz I feel I achieve something when we might've wiped a couple of times and finally get it! It feels good.
HC is for MORE work, MORE wipes, MORE mechanics and knowledge. Its for people who are geared past Norm or just want a bigger challenge. This is where I personally could reach for, but probably not :P
Mythic is for people who dedicate themselves to it, with a LOT of work, a LOT of wipes, a LOT of mechanics and knowledge. This is ofc not the norm. All the above are. You can CHOOSE what difficulty to play on!
You don't need to do mythic raiding, you don't need to get M+30, that's for the people who are really good and sweaty, not for the casuals like us! But I find it strange why there is no incentive for casuals to strive to get better?
Oh wait, no there isn't, because blizzard is mega afraid to let ppl fail at anything -.-'

[Celement]

The point im making is that claiming the only difference between LFR and mythic raiding is "a few more abilities" is like saying the only difference between a nissan GTR and a nissan leaf is a few more HP. If all you do is look at similarities, obviously there are some, but the differences that exist are substantial, and dramatically change the product.

Right...the thing lost on you is those differences usually are minor from a development point of view. There are notable exceptions with extra phases but it's weird to claim those minor things are blizzard catering heavily to a group.

[BeepBoo]

OP clearly said that Normal raids are difficult to pug, not Mythic raids are too difficult to pug.

OP also went on about how everyone wants to feel the satisfaction of "completing" the game, and they won't get that without getting BIS and completing on the hardest difficulty, meaning they think mythic raids are hard.

If they're ACTUALLY talking about normal raids, they can fuck off. That's not .01% of the player base. Like 40% of max level players FULL CLEAR normal raids.

[Hctaz]

OP also went on about how everyone wants to feel the satisfaction of "completing" the game, and they won't get that without getting BIS and completing on the hardest difficulty, meaning they think mythic raids are hard.

If they're ACTUALLY talking about normal raids, they can fuck off. That's not .01% of the player base. Like 40% of max level players FULL CLEAR normal raids.

Yeah, I'll admit that their post was all over the place in terms of what they were talking about.

They said that normal raids are too hard to pug, talked about leaving a Heroic Anduin diefest with players who weren't even bad, and then complained that Sunwell Plateau was the "most brutal raid" and they nerfed it by 30% letting people clear it ahead of Wrath.

So... I don't really quite get what their actual stance is. I would like to say that I do understand and believe that the overall difficulty of the game keeps increasing and that I don't think it's a good thing to continue doing so, but that's less about the casual crowd clearing Mythic and more of the top guilds in the world taking longer than one or two resets to clear the raid on Mythic when they were consistently able to do it in one week in prior expansions. Any guild willing to put in the effort that these top guilds do and raid for 15 hours a day until the boss is dead should probably be able to kill the final boss on the first week.

[chrisisvacant]

This is also what has lead to the abysmal leveling. The horridly easy, short dungeons. The casuals (which I am indeed a part of myself) are SO afraid to LOSE, to FAIL, to not get progress THEN AND THERE or having to actually put in some EFFORT!
LFR is supposed to be a cakewalk. Here you will SEE the content. (I don't like that it actually awards almost raid lvl gear)
Normal is supposed to require SOME work, some wipes, some mechanics and knowledge. I like normals myself, cuz I feel I achieve something when we might've wiped a couple of times and finally get it! It feels good.
HC is for MORE work, MORE wipes, MORE mechanics and knowledge. Its for people who are geared past Norm or just want a bigger challenge. This is where I personally could reach for, but probably not :P
Mythic is for people who dedicate themselves to it, with a LOT of work, a LOT of wipes, a LOT of mechanics and knowledge. This is ofc not the norm. All the above are. You can CHOOSE what difficulty to play on!
You don't need to do mythic raiding, you don't need to get M+30, that's for the people who are really good and sweaty, not for the casuals like us! But I find it strange why there is no incentive for casuals to strive to get better?
Oh wait, no there isn't, because blizzard is mega afraid to let ppl fail at anything -.-'

I disagree that it is casuals who are afraid to fail.

It is mostly the ones between casual and hc that are so bitterly impatient with the game. They feel they should be at a higher tier and have to schlep it with the casuals because they're not in a good guild. So they abandon groups after a wipe or two, never failing to leave with a parting shot criticizing the skill or intelligence of the group they're punishing with a broken key and wasted time.

Blizzard does what most companies do - pay attention to what the whales want and let the other poor saps eat dog food.

The biggest "borrowed power" system in WoW is how Blizzard desperately tried to fill the void for emasculated, would-be kings juiced up on Red Bull and craving definition via an MMO.

[Spazzix]

So you wiped a bunch on heroic Anduin because the game is too hard.

Did you try doing normal?

People complain because they can't full clear a raid in a few weeks now? There are four difficulty levels. There is a massive power gain over time via vault.
I use to play very casually and I don't recall ever just rolling my face across a raid within a month or two of its release.
Just before the next xpac prepatch? Sure.

Mythic raiding, high end pvp, and high key pushing are all opt in systems that have an equivalent content at a lower difficulty. Play arena at 1400 instead of 2400. Do +5 keys instead of +25. Do normal raiding instead of mythic.

OR

If that stuff is too easy for you, then opt in to the high difficulty and stop complaining?

[Jinpachi]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

It's only hard for broke people.

[Agoonga]

The game needs a higher skill floor and a lower skill ceiling. It should be encouraging casuals to be competitive and hard core players to have a good time. Leave the epeen to PvP.

[ONCHEhap]

Why are people so utterly terrified of failing something even once?

Is it because it shows them that they're not as good as they think they are?

[Osmeric]

Why are people so utterly terrified of failing something even once?

Is it because it shows them that they're not as good as they think they are?

Well, yes. The whole point of the game is to tell unexceptional people they are really important and valuable (in a fictional world.) Failing destroys that illusion. If people wanted to be told they suck, they could get that in the real world for free.

[VMSmith]

What I absolutely do NOT agree with is that they cater to or design the game for the top 10%, top 5%, or top 0.01% - i just dont see ANY evidence of that at all.

I would guess that when people claim the game is catered to the "top XX%", what they are really getting at is that the content for that portion is the only rewarding content in the game. And this is true, to a degree.

Unless you participate in high-level organized raiding, high M+, or Rated PvP ... the rewards are just pretty miserable. And not just in terms of power level, but also aesthetics. Look at every coloration for an LFR tier set pretty much since the inception of the difficulty, they're nearly all garbage colored. Questing sets and dungeon sets are abysmally bad, without fail. Mounts attainable from non-organized content tend to be lackluster, with a few exceptions. The only time since MoP that the game has given non-organized players nice-looking aesthetics were the Mage Tower.

Casual/Solo content exists, but it's all either unfun or unrewarding. And usually, the reasons for this are to not step on the provinces of the "Top XX%" because any time this content is made worthwhile the wails of anguish about being "forced" to do things they don't want to do will emanate from that group, who will then happily turn around and demand that the casual/solo players be "forced" to do organized content if they want to have any fun.

It's just a balance that can't be met in WoW: providing casual content that feels fun and rewarding yet not "required" for organized players. So they half-ass it and piss off both groups.

[arkanon]

Right...the thing lost on you is those differences usually are minor from a development point of view. There are notable exceptions with extra phases but it's weird to claim those minor things are blizzard catering heavily to a group.

Quote where i claimed that.

- - - Updated - - -

I would guess that when people claim the game is catered to the "top XX%", what they are really getting at is that the content for that portion is the only rewarding content in the game. And this is true, to a degree.

Unless you participate in high-level organized raiding, high M+, or Rated PvP ... the rewards are just pretty miserable. And not just in terms of power level, but also aesthetics. Look at every coloration for an LFR tier set pretty much since the inception of the difficulty, they're nearly all garbage colored. Questing sets and dungeon sets are abysmally bad, without fail. Mounts attainable from non-organized content tend to be lackluster, with a few exceptions. The only time since MoP that the game has given non-organized players nice-looking aesthetics were the Mage Tower.

Casual/Solo content exists, but it's all either unfun or unrewarding. And usually, the reasons for this are to not step on the provinces of the "Top XX%" because any time this content is made worthwhile the wails of anguish about being "forced" to do things they don't want to do will emanate from that group, who will then happily turn around and demand that the casual/solo players be "forced" to do organized content if they want to have any fun.

It's just a balance that can't be met in WoW: providing casual content that feels fun and rewarding yet not "required" for organized players. So they half-ass it and piss off both groups.

Every single thing you said in here is 100% subjective. Thats fine, but dont confuse your opinions about what colours are good / bad with a fact.

[Revamp Man]

Tell me you don’t play the game without telling me you don’t play the game

If you are having problems in normal now it’s just a skill issue

[VMSmith]

nevermind.

[arkanon]

So you deny that the principle of Aesthetics exists? https://www.interaction-design.org/l...ive%20layouts.



This is not anything new and if you're suggesting that Blizzard is not using well-known aesthetic principles to nudge players into their preferred content then I believe you are woefully out of touch with marketing concepts.

Yes, i am saying you are grossly misreading the situation. There are countless sets where i use the lfr or normal sets for xmog, for a variety of reasons. When they removed tier completely from LFR, that was a different situation altogether. Do Blizzard provide the most elaborate designs from the hardest content in the game? absolutely. Do they provide the most powerful gear from the most challenging content? Absolutely. Do i think some of the mythic designs are gaudy and WAY over the top? yup, and many agree.

But even with all that said, what is the problem? The most impressive cars in a racing game require effort. The best things from MOST games come from the hardest content, why would wow be any different?