STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[NineSpine]

On lower keystone levels, it kind of is casual content though. It is content that you can hop in rather easily and on the spot without much optimization or grind, on the lower keystone levels.

It is only hardcore content if you think it requires a high level of competence and coordination to utilize the Looking for Group Tool which nearly automates every aspect of group search for you outside of you requesting an invite to any group you wantto join and the group leader accepting it. It can be done on a whim, sometimes even faster than the automated queue. And no, I don't accept your definition of casual content because what it describes isn't a casual player but somebody suffering such high levels of crippling anxiety that they are incapable of interacting with other people online.

If the content requires an organized group and cannot be accessed via solo or queue-ing, it is not casual. You are the one inserting all kinds of weird stuff about anxiety or skill at the game into it. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. That is the casual playerbase.

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I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.

You are not casual if you are doing +15 keys.

[Diaphin]

If the content requires an organized group and cannot be accessed via solo or queue-ing, it is not casual. You are the one inserting all kinds of weird stuff about anxiety or skill at the game into it. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. That is the casual playerbase.

Your usual m+ group isn't more organized than your usual solo queue, you just have to manually pick your group and click, thats all. Organized group content would mean something where you actually coordinate with other players with whom you're playing. And actually no, what you described is just having crippling social anxiety, not being a casual. Also, do you have the statistics?

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Depends a lot on your definition of casual. Also, pugging M+ is not a great experience since especially at low keys (where most less proficient players get stuck usually) i've see so much failures one just stops doing them, and that bars him from all the rest of the content.

I agree it has a basically zero barrier of entry, but it's not content you want to do actually (mostly because the people you find is absurdly lacking any knowledge of the game - and i mean i literally went in a +9 Mists and people didn't know how to do the second boss). It's always a matter of "is it fun?". And most of the time it isn't (not due to the content itself though).

EDIT: my definition of casual is "someone who doesn't set himself any objective in game or pursue any goal, independently from his skill/knowledge or time played". If you have a raiding guild, you're not casual; same if you consistently push M+ either for KSM or for an higher score.

A casual player is literally someone who doesn't pay attention to what the game mechanics are. If you read guides, watch videos and generally prepare yourself to play, you're not a casual.

Thats you're personal definition of a casual, if we would look at your average player I'm pretty sure they would follow basic class and spec guides from Wowhead or Icy-veins and have some sort of casual combat addon like dbm once they enter any harder content. Also thats your personal experience, usually doing low m+ most runs end up more or less smoothly and even if you miss the timer you still get loot and it counts for the great vault. What you want for is content for bad players with a low skill level in which you can hardly fail and WoW offers this kind of content, its called normal and heroic dungeons, lfr and open world content.

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I beg to differ. Casuals can be interested in game mechanics and stuff, I surely am. I try to get at least a good performance when I play the game. I was at 6/7 Mage Tower completion before I decided to quit the game for many reasons. I could perform well at 10+ up to 15+ in the first season, stopped to bother about KSM in the second season though - because I lost the gear race and because I don't do FOTM / meta gameplay. I don't have time for the gear threadmill anymore and I don't find any fun in a game which devalues my gearing progress so fast. I want to play alts, run old raids, but the whole daily and weekly chore mentality of the game just makes me wanna puke. So I quit. Maybe I will return for Dragonflight, I don't know. They have to change the game fundamentally to make me stay again.

I'd like to add to that, that ressources to play your class on a basic level of competence are there and readily availabe and I would assume used by a significant portion of the playerbase. You have wowhead and icy-veins for a cookie cutter build as well as very basic addons like dbm and stuff that automatically without any own imput checks if an item is a gear upgrade. There are even addons that show you your rotation on a very basic level.

[NineSpine]

Your usual m+ group isn't more organized than your usual solo queue, you just have to manually pick your group and click, thats all. Organized group content would mean something where you actually coordinate with other players with whom you're playing. And actually no, what you described is just having crippling social anxiety, not being a casual. Also, do you have the statistics?

It's organized if you can't queue for it. That's the dichotomy: Organized vs queued.

Nothing I am talking about has anything to do with social anxiety. What a weird thing to insist on. People can like different things from you without being mentally defective in some way.

[Merpish]

Weird that these forums used to say WoW is getting too easy, now they are saying WoW is too hard.

[Osmeric]

Weird that these forums used to say WoW is getting too easy, now they are saying WoW is too hard.

People saying the first were lying.

[Merpish]

I don't know, I don't think WoW is particularly challenging, it's not a cakewalk for the harder content. I think the delta between people that are good at games, and people that aren't has just widened, and the growth in streaming has just made it more visible.

[Diaphin]

It's organized if you can't queue for it. That's the dichotomy: Organized vs queued.

Nothing I am talking about has anything to do with social anxiety. What a weird thing to insist on. People can like different things from you without being mentally defective in some way.

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

[NineSpine]

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

[VMSmith]

So you are saying the hugh gateway for you to enter more content is that you are too lazy to use the group search tool which just requires a few additional clicks compared to the queue, do I understand it correctly?

People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

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The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

Yes, and this. It's not fun, at all.

[Miffinat0r]

Again this goes to show how unhappy non-competitive players are in this game.

It seems to me that WoW's Devs just continually keep repeating the same mistake.

[NineSpine]

People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

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Yes, and this. It's not fun, at all.

When it comes to wow, an activity cannot be queued for because of design choices around that activity. Those design choices happen to also line up with the types of things I don't like doing, like dealing with timers and keys and the angry attitudes that go with those things. if M+ was reorganized into a type of content that could be queued for, I'd probably like it.

[Echo of Soul]

So you are saying...

No. The answer to any question that starts like that is always no.

[Daffan]

OP is kind of person to 'beat' game on LFR in 1 day than complain there is no more dungeon or raid content to do

[Diaphin]

The huge gateway is that I don’t think the organized content in wow is very fun.

Which isn't really an argument about casual or hardcore players, its a you argument which you try to apply to the community for whatever reason. Also I'm still waiting for those juicy statistics that 50% of the playerbase doesn't do any raids, m+ or rated pvp because for that, I see suspiciously many people running around with raid or m+ pieces in the game.

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People have a large variety of reasons for why they don't enjoy manually creating groups, stop trying to pigeonhole a massive amount of people into whatever box you feel denigrates them the most.

For myself, I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+. They're not my crowd and I don't want to interact with them. It has nothing to do with "crippling social anxiety" or "laziness" or whatever other box you want to come up with to feel superior to others with.

Yeah, but then they shouldn't complain about them not having any content to do when its right out there and requires barely any more effort than automated queues. You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

[NineSpine]

Which isn't really an argument about casual or hardcore players, its a you argument which you try to apply to the community for whatever reason. Also I'm still waiting for those juicy statistics that 50% of the playerbase doesn't do any raids, m+ or rated pvp because for that, I see suspiciously many people running around with raid or m+ pieces in the game.

Yeah, but then they shouldn't complain about them not having any content to do when its right out there and requires barely any more effort than automated queues. You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

https://cyberpost.co/warcraft/only-1...pate-in-raids/

I don't think you are listening. Why can't there be a queue for M+? Because the systems in it require a level of interpersonal accountability and organization that makes queueing unreasonable. That's why. This isn't about having a "queue" button.

[VMSmith]

I said:

I just don't like dealing with the type of people who do M+

To which you replied:

You don't even need to creat your own group, there is plenty of groups out there and you can apply for multiple of those at the same time instead of being stuck waiting for the afklers who pause your queue every no and then.

Did you even read what I wrote before replying to me?

What good is telling me that there are plenty of groups when I flat-out said I do not want to play with the sort of people who are in those groups?

It's like I said "I don't like shit sandwiches" and you reply "Have you looked at how many shit sandwiches that are available? You should get one."

[varren]

Normal mode raiding needs to be made significantly easier to try and steer people into organized content, IMO.

[Coldkil]

Thats you're personal definition of a casual, if we would look at your average player I'm pretty sure they would follow basic class and spec guides from Wowhead or Icy-veins and have some sort of casual combat addon like dbm once they enter any harder content. Also thats your personal experience, usually doing low m+ most runs end up more or less smoothly and even if you miss the timer you still get loot and it counts for the great vault. What you want for is content for bad players with a low skill level in which you can hardly fail and WoW offers this kind of content, its called normal and heroic dungeons, lfr and open world content.

I'd like to add to that, that ressources to play your class on a basic level of competence are there and readily availabe and I would assume used by a significant portion of the playerbase. You have wowhead and icy-veins for a cookie cutter build as well as very basic addons like dbm and stuff that automatically without any own imput checks if an item is a gear upgrade. There are even addons that show you your rotation on a very basic level.

Point is, people don't do that. I'm willing to include class guides because as you said it's information readily available. Yet not everyone does that and very few people actually check boss guides, or addons per se.

It's literally a biased view most of us have because we're so much used to it we cannot really consider playing that way a possibility. But again, you just need to check any progress tracking website and see how many players actually partake in the game the way we're so used to do.

What you said can be summed in "whoever doesn't play this way is a bad player and should have nothing worth from the game". Every content you listed is both irrelevant in terms of character progression and prone to much more failure because as you said, most bad players are stuck in it. So you lose a lot of time in LFR when pugging normal is just faster etc.

Just saying, this line of thought is what has driven WoW design in a few years and we see how good the long term results are, and what Blizzard is doing for the next expansion. Like it or not, the bulk of people playing is people who's actually for the most part clueless about a lot of things game related and just "play for fun". I fully agree that's not hard to gather informations/guides/set up addons and basically anyone who's willing to do anything remotely challenging should check that, but in fact most people simply don't. And i also agree on the fact that simply putting a little effort in the game can bring you very far in terms of character progression (in short terms, it's not hard - it just requires commitement).

And these people simply left. We're left with the two "extremes" of very well used to the game players and the completely terrible ones, which makes for a very very binary experience.

[arkanon]

Normal mode raiding needs to be made significantly easier to try and steer people into organized content, IMO.

Agree. Maybe not significantly, but certainly easier. It was flex before it was normal, and normal mode raiders at the time found it EXTREMELY EASY. Now those same players are most likely purely doing normal, or not at all. I'm really surprised by how they chose to take the difficulty. Yes, mythic became an arms race between devs and top teams, but that's like 1% or less of the players - and I don't mind if they keep making that harder and harder as required, although to be fair, I'm out of the mythic game so don't want to speak FOR those players anymore. What confuses the fuck out of me is why normal and heroic were made so much harder.

It STARTED in legion, but legion normal seemed quite straight forward. I was always on a low geared toon, but had experienced the fights, but most of the players in THAT guild had not seen them ever. We noticed a FEW fights that seemed heroic difficulty in normal, now basically all normal bosses are equal to a early heroic (when flex was added).

Flex used to be perfect for those who wanted to do the raid with a dedicated group of players, wanted a little more challenge than LFR and wanted flex in raid numbers. Now I don't know wtf it is.

I think they have convinced themselves there needs to be a clear path from lfr - normal - heroic - mythic, but that's HORRIBLY outdated and they have the data to prove it. A tiny percentage of players who only completed normal on a certain tier EVER move into a mythic guild. Some do, for sure, but for the most part, I think they need to accept that some players have no interest climbing through difficulties.

[stansted12]

Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I wouldn't mind end game content being hard what I think puts people off is the huge time/social commitment. I'm an adult I couldn't even think about a hardcore raid schedule.