STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Echo of Soul]

So bump heroic to mythic difficulty, and drop normal to lfr? or just........fuck lfr players (the majority of raiders) and fuck mythic raiders?

Tune heroic to where mythic is after the gazillion nerfs which is pretty much early heroic

[ellieg]

But it's already like this. It's literally been like this from Legion (or even before, though before Legion there was nothing besides raiding that could give you personal progression).

And guess what? Game is in shambles. Blizzard is doing exactly the opposite aswell. So that's what you get for trying to make a system artifically elongated and less relevant for the bulk of the players.

I'm not sure i understand what you're saying.

3 main end game pillars are rated pvp, m+, and raids. Conquest has a weekly cap and pvpers get 1 piece from vault. M+ gets 1 278 a week from the vault, 1 272 piece every other week from valor in first half of season. Raids get ~1 piece a week when progressing plus 1 from vault. All of these weekly caps make it so it'll take 3-4 months to get close to fully max geared.

For ppl that don't do these 3 end game activities, casuals as some might define them, they traditionally did the queued version of these. Heroic dungeons, random bgs, lfr. These 3 things are instantly rendered not worthwhile in terms of casual gearing due to the cypher research. Less effort for the casual to grind out cyphers and get a full 252 set. The problem is this gets completed in 2-3 weeks of playing an hour a day. Talking ~20 hours worth of content.

So for casuals that care about ilvl bit don't do "hard content", cypher system has replaced their usual endgame. The system needs to somehow be extended time wise.

[Deadite]

I think LFR was made because they kept making raiding harder and more exlusive at the highest difficulty level.

Get rid of LFR, but get rid of Mythic as well.

I don't even like 2 difficulty levels, but it's better than 4.

They told us why we got LFR. They were sick of making raids that only a few % of the player base ever saw.

[Coldkil]

So for casuals that care about ilvl bit don't do "hard content", cypher system has replaced their usual endgame. The system needs to somehow be extended time wise.

You're literally saying "let's make what we have take arbitrary more time to reach the same point". It really paid off with AP, Covenants, and all the timegated stuff they added from Legion onwards, as we now have lots and lots more players than before and most people is telling Blizzard how they loved these systems.

Also. Before Legion M+ didn't exist. People who didn't like to raid and wanted some sort of parallel progression got their one. I don't see any problem with giving the same to people who don't do dungeons because as a raider i now have an addition system i need to partake with since gear progression in M+ is just flat out better than in raids.

With your take, 15s shouldn't reward mythic ilvl gear, because it's flat out easier than Mythic raids for a multitude of reasons - both fight complexity and logistics behind the raid.

Your 3-4 months to get near max gear apparently suck for the majority of players. You can like it or not and it's totally fine, but Blizzard is always going to make changes that will net them the most rewards. Legion and all the borrowing powers crap happened because most people was just oblivious about other games and literally wanted more reasons to stay online in WoW for more.

Blizzard just gave them what they asked for. Only to realize it was boring as fuck, and suddendly other alternatives started appearing. It's not like "X game is better than WoW" because it simply doesn't apply. It's literally just "oh, i got bored of WoW and now i have a multitude of games to try that appeal me" whch weren't present years ago. FF14 took years to get to a level where people from WoW could even consider it as an option.

The situation we're in is basically Blizzard's fault for not acting soon enough about things players kept telling them for years. Much like faction imbalance for example.

We'll see how things change in DF - SL is already ended for me at this point and i don't expect much other than the experiments of 9.2.5.

[ellieg]

You're literally saying "let's make what we have take arbitrary more time to reach the same point". It really paid off with AP, Covenants, and all the timegated stuff they added from Legion onwards, as we now have lots and lots more players than before and most people is telling Blizzard how they loved these systems.

Also. Before Legion M+ didn't exist. People who didn't like to raid and wanted some sort of parallel progression got their one. I don't see any problem with giving the same to people who don't do dungeons because as a raider i now have an addition system i need to partake with since gear progression in M+ is just flat out better than in raids.

With your take, 15s shouldn't reward mythic ilvl gear, because it's flat out easier than Mythic raids for a multitude of reasons - both fight complexity and logistics behind the raid.

Your 3-4 months to get near max gear apparently suck for the majority of players. You can like it or not and it's totally fine, but Blizzard is always going to make changes that will net them the most rewards. Legion and all the borrowing powers crap happened because most people was just oblivious about other games and literally wanted more reasons to stay online in WoW for more.

Blizzard just gave them what they asked for. Only to realize it was boring as fuck, and suddendly other alternatives started appearing. It's not like "X game is better than WoW" because it simply doesn't apply. It's literally just "oh, i got bored of WoW and now i have a multitude of games to try that appeal me" whch weren't present years ago. FF14 took years to get to a level where people from WoW could even consider it as an option.

The situation we're in is basically Blizzard's fault for not acting soon enough about things players kept telling them for years. Much like faction imbalance for example.

We'll see how things change in DF - SL is already ended for me at this point and i don't expect much other than the experiments of 9.2.5.

Thats my point. Blizzard rendered useless 90% of the content casuals used to do by adding cypher system with higher ilvl. The entire system is grinded out in 1 month of sub. Now for 5 out of 6 months of a patch, casuals will and do quit cause nothing else offers them rewards. They can either extend how long the 252 set takes to get, or nerf the ilvl so its worthwhile to casually do bgs, lfr, or heroics.

[Aydinx2]

No, you are wrong. Because, again, FOR ME, killing mythic raid bosses IS EASIER than having to farm a boss 300 times with the chance to never see the mount. Hence I raid mythic. Because it's easier to get the mounts this way. Both things are difficult in their own way though.

The problem is that you think this is something you can have an opinion on. It's not.
What you described is, objectively, not "difficulty". It's literally just time.

I don't care how you experience it. Your experience is wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Your seriously overestimate how good the average player is.
Yes WoW is not hard, I agree. But the people how find normal to be braindead are not the audience for Normal mode raids.
Remember how terrible the average pug/lfr player is and then remember half of them are worse.

If you look at the difference between WoD normal and SL normal there is a marked increase in fight complexity and for the 'bad' people who don't find normal braindead easy that is a problem. Why do you care that Normal is to easy? surely your not actually doing them yourself. Let Mythic be for the 'skilled' players, normal for the braindead masses and have Heroic sit in between.

That's not the problem. I'm not asking people to make Normal/Heroic harder. I'm asking casuals to stop crying about having no options when 99% of the content is casual friendly.

[ellieg]

The problem is that you think this is something you can have an opinion on. It's not. I don't care how you experience it. Your experience is wrong.

Now this is a quote lol.

[Aydinx2]

Now this is a quote lol.

I like how you edited out the context to suit your needs.

It's still true though. The guy is trying to define what "difficulty" is and is using a definition that doesn't match any form of reality. Spending time on something easy is not "difficult". I don't say "showering every morning is the Dark Souls of self-care".

[ellieg]

I like how you edited out the context to suit your needs.

It's still true though. The guy is trying to define what "difficulty" is and is using a definition that doesn't match any form of reality. Spending time on something easy is not "difficult". I don't say "showering every morning is the Dark Souls of self-care".

There are different kinds of difficulty, along with varying levels of it tho. Consistency can be considered a form of difficulty.

[Aydinx2]

There are different kinds of difficulty, along with varying levels of it tho. Consistency can be considered a form of difficulty.

It really can't. It can be tiring to do a task repeatedly, but that is tiring because the task itself is slightly taxing and it builds up over time. Solo'ing ICC once a week isn't taxing.

Maybe he's getting emotionally taxed due to not getting the mount, but even then that's not "difficulty". The task itself is not difficult. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping.

But I'm not going to keep arguing linguistics with someone who signatures other peoples edited comments for clout. I already don't think very highly of you and I think more highly of my time.

[ellieg]

It really can't. It can be tiring to do a task repeatedly, but that is tiring because the task itself is slightly taxing and it builds up over time. Solo'ing ICC once a week isn't taxing.

Maybe he's getting emotionally taxed due to not getting the mount, but even then that's not "difficulty". The task itself is not difficult. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping.

Part of the definition of difficult is effort. Consistently doing something every week is effort.

Or are you implying things aren't difficult if they're optional and you can simply not do them?

How about an alcoholic not drinking for 1 full year? Its not difficult cause the task is literally just not drinking. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping

[Aydinx2]

Part of the definition of difficult is effort. Consistently doing something every week is effort.

Or are you implying things aren't difficult if they're optional and you can simply not do them?

I'm saying that he himself made it difficult for himself by doing it. But if you remember the original context of that discussion, that doesn't mean it is actually hard content for casuals to do. There is a reason "effort" and "difficult" are two different words. It can take effort to repeatedly do a task that isn't difficult because it is mentally draining to do it for so long. The same way it can be difficult to do something only once.

How about an alcoholic not drinking for 1 full year? Its not difficult cause the task is literally just not drinking. The optional task he set for himself is emotionally draining over a large period of time. If he considers this a difficult thing then the good news is that that's entirely his own fault and he can fix it by stopping

I know you think this was a clever example, but as someone who knows alcoholics this is a terrible thing to say. It's not "optional" when your social life and health are literally suffering. It's difficult because a single mistake can get your life ruined or even get you killed.

Between this disgusting comment and the disrespectful edited signature I'm convinced you're just a bad person. I'm gonna stop replying to you now.

Edit: Actually, let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

[ellieg]

I'm saying that he himself made it difficult for himself by doing it. But if you remember the original context of that discussion, that doesn't mean it is actually hard content for casuals to do. There is a reason "effort" and "difficult" are two different words. It can take effort to repeatedly do a task that isn't difficult because it is mentally draining to do it for so long. The same way it can be difficult to do something only once.



I know you think this was a clever example, but as someone who knows alcoholics this is a terrible thing to say. It's not "optional" when your social life and health are literally suffering. It's difficult because a single mistake can get your life ruined or even get you killed.

Between this disgusting comment and the disrespectful edited signature I'm convinced you're just a bad person. I'm gonna stop replying to you now.

Edit: Actually, let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

Im glad my personal experience with alcoholics has helped get my point thru to you. Consistency is a form of difficulty, and so is something that is emotionally draining.

[Coldkil]

Thats my point. Blizzard rendered useless 90% of the content casuals used to do by adding cypher system with higher ilvl. The entire system is grinded out in 1 month of sub. Now for 5 out of 6 months of a patch, casuals will and do quit cause nothing else offers them rewards. They can either extend how long the 252 set takes to get, or nerf the ilvl so its worthwhile to casually do bgs, lfr, or heroics.

Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.

[Aydinx2]

Im glad my personal experience with alcoholics has helped get my point thru to you. Consistency is a form of difficulty, and so is something that is emotionally draining.

I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.

[ellieg]

Yes, that's true. What you don't realize is that most people don't care about long grinds at all so they will unsub after a month anyway - and that's the bulk of players Blizzard used to fund the game on.

The difference is that if you make a content that lasts 1/2 months and it's good, people will come back when new stuff is released. Now what's happening is that content was dragged out to the extreme, people left and have zero will of returning because at this point they know what the game is about. It's better to take 2 months of a sub regularly than 4 months one single time and then never again.

I can actually see your point - there's a bunch of actually compelling content that's dragged out by faster/easier stuff that takes less to do for better rewards so this content is left behind my most players. It's exactly what happened with Raiding as a whole when M+ was implemented.

One thing i fully agree with you: open world/casual progression should be a longer road. But it also has to bring additional rewards with it to keep people playing.

Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know why I still bother, but that is literally not what I said. Stop gaslighting people.

So your argument is still that something being optional is factored into whether something is difficulty? And i touched a nerve and you're crying that giving up drinking is actually not optional and that's why it is difficult? Well I can attest from multiple alcoholics in my life that giving up drinking is in fact optional

[Kyriani]

Hah yeah.

I dont really get why LFR excist as it does today. It quite literally does nothing good beyond seeing the inside of a raid and the completion of a story. Its not really a fun grouping experience most of the time and I would bet players just want it over with when doing it.

LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in favor of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

So long as X amount of people engage with LFR, the bean counters will be happy. If LFR dies, so does raid content as a whole.

[crusadernero]

LFR exists to justify the time and resources devoted to creating raid content. That's it. The bean counters basically told Blizzard to find a way to get more players engaging with raid content or else to cut back on it in lieu of content that more players engage with. It's all about numbers.

And in WoD when Blizzard tried to nix the tier gear from LFR, and participation in it tanked, they did a quick about face and put tier back in.

Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.

[Kyriani]

Yeah I know, but its still a shallow and rather bad experience overall for the playerbase. There shouldnt be a question about wether or not you clear it with ease with a random 25 man raid. it should be VERY easy.

And yeah I know, its already easy, but not easy enough. If the insist of having it random grouped with others, it gotta be beyond easy.

It should leave a positive taste in ppls mouth doing it. Hunger for more of it. As it is now, its done once while crying.

I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.

[Echo of Soul]

Ya I think ppl quitting after 1 month anyway is a dif convo. I was just talking about the balance of activities. I know the 3-4 months gearing cycle works for me personally as an m+ player and was curious why it's not a similar cycle for casuals too

Because that would take away from the accomplishments of those that actually make an effort and you know, play the game. Fuck em, if they can't play longer than 1 month per expansion due to gear greed they can stay unsubscribed for all I care.