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  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

    If the gold is generated, made from alchemy or stolen from Jeff Kaplans grandmother it does not matter. You pay real money to Blizzard, you end up with gold in game, that's all that matters.
    It may or may not matter depending on what argument you make. But "you buy gold directly from the store" is still factually incorrect. And it's not unimportant that buying tokens does NOT generate new gold, because that matters a whole lot for inflation and economic stability.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It may or may not matter depending on what argument you make. But "you buy gold directly from the store" is still factually incorrect. And it's not unimportant that buying tokens does NOT generate new gold, because that matters a whole lot for inflation and economic stability.
    I was talking about P2W. Whatever other discussion people have about the token and gold is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

  3. #923
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I assume so since dungeons,raids,torghast, and mage tower don't instantly vanish...

    The issue isn't really the content but a intense burning jealousy that other people have higher ilv then them.

    I would argue for this type of player content honestly comes second compared to how they see themselves stacked against their peers.
    I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
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  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I find it hilarious that "casual players want more casual content that isn't pushing them into raids, dungeons, or PvP, fun engaging repeatable content that creates a sense of community" is met with "LOL THEY JEALOUS B/C THEY HAVE LOW ILVL" It's pretty much EXACTLY what I have come to expect from the WoW community.
    Its because there's some casuals who talk about how much casual content there used to be. But when you look at all the casual content in the past, its all still there, plus more of it. When you point this out, its usually met with "but its not rewarding enough, the gear it gives is worthless". Which leads ppl to believe its gear they want, and not content.

  5. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I highly doubt that the people that boost who earn their own gold is enough to sustain the boosting 'industry'.
    I've played with to many people who had trouble paying for even just their repair bills for me to believe that.

    Those who are 'wealthy' in WoW are a tiny tiny minority.
    The grounds upon which you're making your claim don't warrant it. The fact that a lot of people can't afford to buy boosts doesn't change the fact that there are a substantial number who can. It's like arguing that Mercedes Benz can't sell enough cars to make a profit because 98% of people on the planet cannot afford them.

    I have often heard from boosters that most of their customers do not, in fact, acquire their gold via tokens. To test this I even made a poll on MMO-C a while back asking people if they paid for boosts and how. The number who bought it with gold made in-game was 4 times more than the number who used tokens. I will not pretend that this sort of survey is necessarily an accurate reflection of the playerbase as a whole. But I do think it casts serious doubts on the oft-made claim - a claim that has never even been supported by any actual evidence other than the supposed notion of "common sense" - that most boostees make use of tokens.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Its because there's some casuals who talk about how much casual content there used to be. But when you look at all the casual content in the past, its all still there, plus more of it. When you point this out, its usually met with "but its not rewarding enough, the gear it gives is worthless". Which leads ppl to believe its gear they want, and not content.
    Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
    "Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

    It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.

  7. #927
    Epic! Malania's Avatar
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    You want to clear current content, you want that 0.01% title. I'm sorry mate but you gotta:



    Also you're being very generalist about Wrath and being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point.

    Wraths first raid was a dungeon that had been cleared before and knowledge was freely available and as then and just as now. Hard modes were entirely optional. You didn't do Firefighter or 0 lights or Sarg+3 without being at the top end of the raiding or over gearing them the following tier.

    Then, as now; Work b*tch if you really want to clear them. The phrase get gud' is relevant here.
    Last edited by Malania; 2022-05-19 at 10:53 AM.

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
    "Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

    It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.
    Thats fine, just pointing out that it is in fact about the ilvl of the gear rewarded and they should stop pretending its not.

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

    If the gold is generated, made from alchemy or stolen from Jeff Kaplans grandmother it does not matter. You pay real money to Blizzard, you end up with gold in game, that's all that matters.
    Theres no point debating them about this. They refuse to understand and are hellbendt that its a WHOLE different thing. Even though the effect is just the same. Smart move by Blizzard though,now they will have defenders of it everywhere.

  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.
    OF. COURSE. IT. MATTERS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    If the gold is generated, made from alchemy or stolen from Jeff Kaplans grandmother it does not matter. You pay real money to Blizzard, you end up with gold in game, that's all that matters.
    To the individual who buys the gold, sure, it doesn't matter where it comes from - at least not beyond than the fact that it determines how much they are paying for it.

    But in terms of how it affects other players, the WoW economy, boosting, whether or not WoW is P2W (hint, it's absolutely NOT, and people who think it is are just ignorant) etc (ie everything that actually matters) - where it comes from matters a great deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    They refuse to understand and are hellbendt that its a WHOLE different thing. Even though the effect is just the same.
    Except the effect is not the same.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2022-05-19 at 11:10 AM.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    All you're saying is that there are more pieces of content for players to boost (or be boosted in), not that the demand for boosting has suddenly skyrocketed. Naturally this will have the knock-on effect of making it seem like boosting is more prevalent but I honestly don't think it's much different now than it was before the token. I also don't think that removing the token will have any impact on the game outside of making it more difficult for players who aren't currently boosting to afford anything. (Almost prohibitively so, given the cost of things like Legendary base items right now.)

    - - - Updated - - -



    I know that I'm not currently boosting (though I definitely could) because I'd rather buy a token than get "paid" to play the game. If the token didn't exist, I would be boosting because it'd be the only way for me to afford the raid mats I use when I run keys. (Not a fan of the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and create a bunch of farming alts" or the "just play the AH" approach to wealth creation in this game.) Since removing the token does nothing to cease the demand for boosting, it'd just shove more players like me into the boosting role out of necessity... thereby further eroding whatever imaginary benefit you think not having the token around presents.
    You don’t need to boost to afford raid mats. I literally survive each tier with just 100k gold, and sometimes less.

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Except the effect is not the same.
    Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this. You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.

  13. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    You don’t need to boost to afford raid mats. I literally survive each tier with just 100k gold, and sometimes less.
    That has absolutely nothing to do with the argument he is making, which is: If tokens disappeared, he would start providing boosts. That in turn would increase competition among boosters, which would bring the price down and making boosting accessible to more players.

    You see, this is the problem with the "tokens cause boosts hurr-durr" crowd. They don't bother applying to critical thinking to how removing the token would actually affect the boosting situation. They just cherry pick one aspect of it.

    Here is another argument you won't see these guys making: Without tokens, all those people who sell their gold to buy them would suddenly have a lot more gold lying around to spend on buying things like boosts.

    Because every token seller needs a buyer, all that tokens do is move gold around. The economy in the game though remains a closed system. It isn't really affected. It's just who is doing what that changes.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Remove gear from any activity and very few people will care about it.
    "Casual content" used to give worthwhile rewards (although very slow) via the valor point content. When that was removed nobody wanted to do it.

    It's the same with everything. Whenever someone suggests removing gear rewards from mythic raiding people have a complete meltdown.
    You're right. On another thread people pointed out the difference in outcomes depending on the gear one has, mythic raiding gear was sooo far ahead when you SIM it. Big mistake!

  15. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this
    What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.
    Yes, and? No one is denying this.

    What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

    It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres no use of your mental gymnastics about this. You buy gold, you use gold on in game activities. Either illegal, plainly from Blizzard or via token.
    Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

    Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

    Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I agree with you. The constant escalation of difficulty has made me skip even LFR outside of one run to clear the "kill the end boss" quest. LFR is just too much of a slog to waste my time with now.
    How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
    Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What you call "mental gymnastics" is actually called critical thinking. You should try it some time.



    Yes, and? No one is denying this.

    What I am trying to say is that because WoW tokens source the gold from other players, this has a significant impact on the effect that tokens have on the game and other players around you versus if you just bought the gold straight up from Blizzard.

    It's the fundamental difference between the game being P2W and not and, importantly, it's why you buying a token doesn't fuck with the game experience of everyone else in the way that actual P2W mechanisms do.
    can you, with all honesty, say that the prices for certain moounts and legendary mats havent been affected by the sheer fact you can buy gold directly ingame?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Pay real money > Get gold > Buy boost with gold > Win

    Who cares where the gold came from? The only thing that matters is if it's bannable or not which it's not. In other games (and WoW in the past) you could get banned from buying gold from a 3rd party which meant that you took a big risk trying to P2W. Today you can buy it directly through Blizzard, 100% legal and you're free to spend it on as much high level gear that you want through boosting.

    Either ban the WoW Token or ban boosting. One have to go, as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.
    Yes indeed. But in the end, Blizzard is probably raking in huge money from these tokens. Cant be from subs so.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    You can buy gold directly from the Blizzard store for real money and then buy boosts which makes WoW one of the most P2W games on the market.
    Even if WoW was P2W (it is objectively not), this would still be a stupid statement.
    If you could buy a Mythic Jailer kill with gauranteed gear, it would still not be anywhere near as P2W as other games on the market.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    as it stands right now WoW is just as P2W as Lost Ark.
    What can you win in WoW by buying a token? A boost? You don't "win" anything by killing a raid boss, unless you're doing Mythic Jailer and are racing for world first. The loot drops aren't even guaranteed.

    And people can see how many times you've killed it. If you have 0 normal kills and have heroic kills, they know you got boosted. Especially if there are no logs anywhere. If anything boosting is a detriment in this case because guilds don't take people who need boosts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    How is LFR a slog? You typically kill a boss in 2 maybe 3 attempts except the Jailer (which, duh. He's the final boss).
    Any easier and it just becomes braindead button mashing until you get loot. Why do you even play the game at that point?
    LFR is a slog because mechanics have gotten more complex with every expansion and what used to be a fun cakewalk is far less so today. LFR is queued content with strangers and little coordination. It's 2 to 3 attempts if I'm lucky. If I am not, some bosses can be 5 or more attempts.

    As easy as you think LFR is, it's not easy enough for me to waste my time in a queue for it, and then waste more of my time wiping on bosses I know all the mechanics to (I've full cleared the raid on normal and up to Anduin on heroic), all for rewards that are only valuable for mog unlocks... if I get anything at all. My alts will kill the jailer on LFR to finish the story quest and that will be all they ever see of the inside of the raid because it's not worth the time and frustration.

    And I play the game to be entertained... not challenged. When WoW fails to entertain me, I unsub. Despite clearing sepulcher, I don't do real raiding anymore. I raided this tier to help out my guild that was shorthanded due to many not returning for 9.2. And brain dead button mashing is exactly what I want from LFR. If I want to do real raiding I can always go with my guild.

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