STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Tyris Flare]

Holy moly. 34,730 posts. Acc has been around since 2008, so 14 years. Let's do some basic arithmetic shall we.

14x 365.25 days = 5,113.5 days, rounded to 5,114 days.

34,730 posts / 5,114 days = 6.79 posts per day, rounded to 7 posts per day.

You have been posting, on average, 7 posts per day on MMO-Champion, for FOURTEEN YEARS, every day. Operative words being "on average" of course, since some days you might've posted 0 posts, other days you might've posted 50 posts. Still though. 7 posts per day, for 14 years, non-stop?

If you spent HALF, nay, a QUARTER, nay, a SIXTEENTH of that time playing the game we all love instead of posting on MMO-C, you'd be much, much farther than where you currently are. Holy fucking shit. 7 posts a day for 14 years. Damn that's alot.

I would definitely upvote this if such a thing were possible

[Raisei]

M+ is not casual content. When someone says they can’t do something via casual content, telling them they can do non-casual content more than missed the point.

I play about 1,5 hours a day atm, most of that time spend in M+. That is casual for sure. Unless of course you consider "casual" somehow based on skill or willingness to engage in harder content. Which it is not. It has always been based on time spend playing. Hardcore people spending many hours every day while casuals just log in a for a bit.

But as I said in the duplicate thread of this one, the word "casual" is misapproproated by people to demand getting things they do not want to work for.

"Casual" is now always the thing that the specific person feels it is. "Casuals" don't raid, "Casuals" don't do dungeons, "Casuals" only farm herbs, so you better include Herbalism content or 96% of the game population will leave!!!

[Glorious Leader]

I play about 1,5 hours a day atm, most of that time spend in M+.

So you log in on a literal daily basis and probably have a group already lined up (because it takes forever to find a group and would eat into your 1.5) and you consider this casual?

[Raisei]

So you log in on a literal daily basis and probably have a group already lined up (because it takes forever to find a group and would eat into your 1.5) and you consider this casual?

Yes, I have a guild with friends. Is this now something special in this MMO? Are casuals somehow prevented from joining guilds too?

So to summarize, Casuals cannot:

Raid
Run Dungeons
Join Guilds
Have friends to run keys

Hard life. Frankly, I would not play this game if I couldn't do that. Not sure why you are still doing it, hoping that for some reason everything changes.

[ohwell]

I hope Dragonflight has single boss raids that are akin to Onyxia's Lair, which feels like something we haven't seen for a while.

I think it takes a bit more development time though. I mean even go back to BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP where the first tier(and others in the case of BC) had multiple raids. They stopped that to a degree where they massively spaced them out in WoD and BfA, but it was also more to the developing multiple instances versus just 1 I'm sure. Why have 4 bosses here and 6 bosses there when you can have a single one with 10 that pleases both the players no having to travel in a raid night and developers not having to make 2 zones. I think 1 in the first and 1 in the last would be fine with a single room style like you're saying, but even then more than 1 would be a stretch.

[Echo of Soul]

I play about 1,5 hours a day atm, most of that time spend in M+. That is casual for sure. Unless of course you consider "casual" somehow based on skill or willingness to engage in harder content. Which it is not. It has always been based on time spend playing. Hardcore people spending many hours every day while casuals just log in a for a bit.

But as I said in the duplicate thread of this one, the word "casual" is misapproproated by people to demand getting things they do not want to work for.

"Casual" is now always the thing that the specific person feels it is. "Casuals" don't raid, "Casuals" don't do dungeons, "Casuals" only farm herbs, so you better include Herbalism content or 96% of the game population will leave!!!

Just by you being on this forum you've proven that you're not a casual. So that was a lie.

[ohwell]

I'm gonna make a new thread posting the ilvl of the gear u can get then vs now. Trust me, its better now

It's mainly because a lot of people are truly ignorant about gearing. Like when my guild gets new people that hit 60 they're like "oh let me take you into mythic world tour to gear up" when honestly unless you're fishing for a certain item it's a waste of time. Any of my new alts can get to 252 cypher gear in about a week if that. I think that sets you around like a 10 iirc and we have crafters in guild that can easily make the new marks as well. Gearing as a casual is so easy.

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Just by you being on this forum you've proven that you're not a casual. So that was a lie.

I mean that's been said before but you know people will defend them to the teeth saying casuals spend 2 hours a day on this forum as well and you can't say they aren't.

[Raisei]

Just by you being on this forum you've proven that you're not a casual. So that was a lie.

Soooo, what you are saying is that all the people calling themselves "casuals", including the ones that opened and kept this thread alive for a ridiculous amount of time with their demands for casual content are ALL not casuals, because they are on this forum?

Personally I couldn't care less what people label me, but these guys have literally build their identities on "being casual and the game hates us for it", so your statement is daring to say the least.

[Battlebeard]

Just by you being on this forum you've proven that you're not a casual. So that was a lie.

Casual has nothing to do with passion or time spent. I play video games 8 hours a day, yet I'm a casual, cause I don't play anything at a competitive or challenging level.

[Glorious Leader]

Casual has nothing to do with passion or time spent. I play video games 8 hours a day, yet I'm a casual, cause I don't play anything at a competitive or challenging level.

It absolutely has everything to do with how much you care or the degree to which you are invested which playing 8 hours day and caring enough to post on the fucking not even official forums shows much you care. Alot. You are not casual. It should be noted that the so called "casual mythic raiders" are also not casual for the express reason that yea you can't be a casual mythic raider. So you are correct because playing at a competitive or challenging level would discount you for that same reason. Clearly you fucking care enough to do the hardest organized content in the game that demands a fixed schedule and a certain degree of min max or optimization


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Yes, I have a guild with friends. Is this now something special in this MMO? Are casuals somehow prevented from joining guilds too?

So to summarize, Casuals cannot:

Raid
Run Dungeons
Join Guilds
Have friends to run keys

Hard life. Frankly, I would not play this game if I couldn't do that. Not sure why you are still doing it, hoping that for some reason everything changes.

In a vacuum or isolated none of those individual items you've listed should be used to judge the degree to which somebody is a casual. However all of the combined with the fact that you are seemingly on a daily schedule for a fixed amount of time with what appears to be a regular group of players defending game that is wholly casual unfriendly on the not even official forums makes me think that you are probably not a casual and in fact might be ion hazikostas himself.

[Dalinos]

Casual has nothing to do with passion or time spent. I play video games 8 hours a day, yet I'm a casual, cause I don't play anything at a competitive or challenging level.

8 hours a day for 5 days a week is...a 40-hour work week. In terms of time. You spend as much time gaming as others spend working to support themselves and their loved ones, financially that is. That is hardcore my dude.

You know who's a casual? My mate John. He gets home from work at 6 in the afternoon, eats, logs on at 7, plays till around 9-10ish and logs off. The content he does irrelevant on if he's casual or not. He farms 15's with me. Wanna know how he farms 15's while playing 2-3h/day 3 times a week? Cause he gives me a fucking phonecall on his way back from work. He asks me if I and the boys are available tonight. If we are he logs on and plays with us. If we're not he doesn't, he does something else. John is the definition of a casual who values his time. He doesn't waste time pugging, because while pugs can be successful in M+, they take time to form. John doesn't have time. You, who spends 40 hours per week gaming, is most certainly NOT a casual.

John is a casual. 10-12h/week is casual. You are not. 40h/week is not casual, that's the definition of a 9-5 job.

Maybe you need even more perspective. Allow me to elaborate.

I trained in Karate for 7 years, from 8 yrs old to 15 yrs old. Training was 3 times a week, 1.5 hours per session. Tournaments happened once a year on average. Exam periods happened twice a year. That's 4.5h/week, make it 5 on average if we add 2-day long tournaments and 1-day long exam days to the grand total.

5h/week is the basic definition of a "hobby". Perhaps one plays tennis every day for 2h/day? More hardcore than my Karate training, but still, in the realm of the "hobby" definition, since that is still 10h/week.

Anything above that you start entering the realm of what we call "Part-time jobs" in terms of time. Part-time jobs clock in at between 18-24h/week, depending on industry.

40h/week and we're talking full time. Full time job, full time student, full time Ph.D researcher (not a student or a professor yet), all these roles fall into the "full-time" category.

You, my friend, are a full-time gamer, whether you like it or not, as dictated by society's standards and basic arithmetic. The fact you're not competitive is of no matter - you're a full time gamer. You're not a SERIOUS full time gamer, otherwise you'd be streaming your 40h/week play sessions and maybe make some money out of it. Or you'd be a competitive full time gamer, in which case you'd be duking it out in League of Legends to reach Challenger rank and get recruited by pro teams. Whatever you do with your gaming time is irrelevant - you are not a casual, you are a hardcore full-time gamer.

[Syncr]

Just by you being on this forum you've proven that you're not a casual. So that was a lie.

That’s… that’s not how this works lol

[arkanon]

That’s… that’s not how this works lol

Some people just don't get that blizzard can't create content for casuals players, because even those who identify as casual can't agree AT ALL on what casual even means.

This is why ANY discussion about hardcore/casual is just a total clusterfuck - by page 2 it's just people fighting about what casual is.

[Glorious Leader]

8 hours a day for 5 days a week is...a 40-hour work week. In terms of time. You spend as much time gaming as others spend working to support themselves and their loved ones, financially that is. That is hardcore my dude.

You know who's a casual? My mate John. He gets home from work at 6 in the afternoon, eats, logs on at 7, plays till around 9-10ish and logs off. The content he does irrelevant on if he's casual or not. He farms 15's with me. Wanna know how he farms 15's while playing 2-3h/day 3 times a week? Cause he gives me a fucking phonecall on his way back from work. He asks me if I and the boys are available tonight. If we are he logs on and plays with us. If we're not he doesn't, he does something else. John is the definition of a casual who values his time. He doesn't waste time pugging, because while pugs can be successful in M+, they take time to form. John doesn't have time. You, who spends 40 hours per week gaming, is most certainly NOT a casual.

John is a casual. 10-12h/week is casual. You are not. 40h/week is not casual, that's the definition of a 9-5 job (or 10-6 in John's case).

John is also not a casual to be honest. it sounds like he commits the majority or a significant enough portion of his leisure time to one game in which he completes some of the more challenging group content in that game which requires above average competency to complete. Additionally he has an established group of players at equal skill level that he has invested enough time and energy into networking with in order to facilitate his "casual" playstyle.

Here's casual friendly. Its 2 am on a random Saturday morning id like to log in and get some decent progress on my own terms and my own schedule. The game does offer better options for that than in say TBC but it feels diluted for some reason. Like on paper the game is more casual friendly than Wrath but it doesn't feel like it.

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Some people just don't get that blizzard can't create content for casuals players, because even those who identify as casual can't agree AT ALL on what casual even means.

This is why ANY discussion about hardcore/casual is just a total clusterfuck - by page 2 it's just people fighting about what casual is.

Ironically the only people identifying as casuals are the people who tend to defend current systems. I don't identify as one. I have been before and been more hardcore on the spectrum. Now im just a non player. The game retained me as a hardcore player but failed when I took a step down.

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That’s… that’s not how this works lol

It is. You aren't. Congratulations

[arkanon]

Let me ask everyone this:

Bob has friends who raid very seriously. They clear mythic every tier, and then open things up to friends and family who can handle mythic, and take them on alt runs. Bob loves raiding mythic, even if he's 9th on the damage meter. Bob plays when he can, sometimes he goes days without playing, sometimes he plays 5 hours in one day, but he never misses the rostered alt raid.

John doesn't raid, but he is working on maxing achievements, collecting mounts, and farming gold. John plays almost every day, usually 6-8 hours a day.
Some days up to 12 hours.

Susan doesn't raid or pvp, but she does a lot of m+. She plays with friends, any chance they can get together. They are working their way up in keys, slowly, as they learn and improve. Susans highest key is a +9.

Lucy used to play at the highest level in PvE - although never world first, she was extremely competitive. She has kids now, and just plays when she has the time. M+ suits her because she doesn't always have 2-3 hours for a raid. Her highest key is a+19, and she cleared heroic with her old guild on a split run, as she happened to be online at the time. She usually only plays around 12 hours per week, when she can.

Based on that information, who is casual, and who is not? If you need any further information to make that decision, just ask, I know them very well and will answer as quickly as I can.

[Glorious Leader]

The kid who logs into play cod war zone for an hour while waiting for something else to do.

[Dalinos]

John is also not a casual to be honest. it sounds like he commits the majority or a significant enough portion of his leisure time to one game in which he completes some of the more challenging group content in that game which requires above average competency to complete. Additionally he has an established group of players at equal skill level that he has invested enough time and energy into networking with in order to facilitate his "casual" playstyle.

Here's casual friendly. Its 2 am on a random Saturday morning id like to log in and get some decent progress on my own terms and my own schedule. The game does offer better options for that than in say TBC but it feels diluted for some reason. Like on paper the game is more casual friendly than Wrath but it doesn't feel like it.

Wait a minute. John & I were friends before WoW was a thing. We're his group of friends who happen to play WoW together for many years - we are not his WoW buddies that ONLY get together to play WoW. Man literally lives 3 blocks down the street. His "established group of players" is...his mates. Just like we organise to go out for beers, we organise to run M+. Don't you have a group of mates you organise to do stuff with? And since when is using one's own personal network of people they get along well with (their FRIENDS) to do group activities together (like do M+) considered "hardcore"? You lost me there mate.

Also, you wanna know what fits your definition of casual friendly? You're not gonna like this. The answer is single-player games. You wanna log in at 2 in the morning and do decent character progress on your OWN terms? Play the Assassin's Creed series. Or The Witcher. Or Elden Ring. Or the Souls series. I can guarantee you, 1,000%, you can log on any time you want, any moment of the day, and do meaningful progress.

Wanna know where that doesn't work? TEAM games. Like WoW. Sure, you can log on and practice to get better, by hitting target dummies, or practicing in the Mage Tower challenges. But you want to raid at 2-am? Do high M+ at 2-am? Do arenas at 2-am? Well you better find some people with similar schedules & set it up. Cause in a team game, you need the REST OF THE TEAM there.

[Glorious Leader]

Wait a minute. John & I were friends before WoW was a thing. We're his group of friends who happen to play WoW together for many years - we are not his WoW buddies that ONLY get together to play WoW. Man literally lives 3 blocks down the street. His "established group of players" is...his mates. Just like we organise to go out for beers, we organise to run M+. Don't you have a group of mates you organise to do stuff with? And since when is using one's own personal network of people they get along well with (their FRIENDS) to do group activities together (like do M+) considered "hardcore"? You lost me there mate.

An actual casual player is much less likely to have invested the time and energy into networking for a group of friends. Again less likely is not never and its spectrum were talking about here not a single isolated trait that defines somebody as a casual. The fact that he seems to dedicate a fairly significant portion of his leisure time to one game is far better evidence but not the only evidence.

[Dalinos]

Let me ask everyone this:

Bob has friends who raid very seriously. They clear mythic every tier, and then open things up to friends and family who can handle mythic, and take them on alt runs. Bob loves raiding mythic, even if he's 9th on the damage meter. Bob plays when he can, sometimes he goes days without playing, sometimes he plays 5 hours in one day, but he never misses the rostered alt raid.

John doesn't raid, but he is working on maxing achievements, collecting mounts, and farming gold. John plays almost every day, usually 6-8 hours a day.
Some days up to 12 hours.

Susan doesn't raid or pvp, but she does a lot of m+. She plays with friends, any chance they can get together. They are working their way up in keys, slowly, as they learn and improve. Susans highest key is a +9.

Lucy used to play at the highest level in PvE - although never world first, she was extremely competitive. She has kids now, and just plays when she has the time. M+ suits her because she doesn't always have 2-3 hours for a raid. Her highest key is a+19, and she cleared heroic with her old guild on a split run, as she happened to be online at the time. She usually only plays around 12 hours per week, when she can.

Based on that information, who is casual, and who is not? If you need any further information to make that decision, just ask, I know them very well and will answer as quickly as I can.

Bob is a casual hobbyist. He has set times (the alt raid) that he never misses, and schedules it into his life schedule, and he plays some extra when he has the time. He is a casual, but he does love raiding mythic, so mythic raiding in WoW is his hobby. His preferred, organized activity of choice, that he devotes specific time to, much like if he played a game of football with the boys every Friday 8-10, or if he went bird-watching with his girlfriend every Saturday morning 9-12.

The fact Bob raids Mythic and always comes to raid fully gemmed, enchanted and consumed up to the teeth is of no relevance - man is SERIOUS about his hobby and RESPECTFUL to his team-mates by showing up as prepared as they did. NOT hardcore.

Your John is hardcore. 6-8h/day? 12h/day? Farming 1% mount drops, doing old-raid achievements, setting up groups for obscure shit like the fucking dancing circle in Ardenweald? Definition of hardcore. 12h/day means your John wakes up, logs on, logs off, sleeps.

Susan is a casual. Plays with her mates, likes progressing at her own pace, doesn't give a rat's ass that she's clearing +9's when +20's are available. Definition of a casual who plays for fun.

Lucy is also a casual, however, she is an ex-hardcore player. That experience sticks with people, like riding a bicycle. Hence, she is a casual with the skill level (obtained by her hardcore days) to do challenging content. Now, with kids, she can't be hardcore even if she wanted to. Casual, but one of the skillful casuals, like my John above.

[Syncr]

Some people just don't get that blizzard can't create content for casuals players, because even those who identify as casual can't agree AT ALL on what casual even means.

This is why ANY discussion about hardcore/casual is just a total clusterfuck - by page 2 it's just people fighting about what casual is.

The only people fighting over what a casual is are people who aren’t casuals and people who are casuals. People who are casuals generally agree or accept other peoples definitions of casual. You people, not so much.

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John is also not a casual to be honest. it sounds like he commits the majority or a significant enough portion of his leisure time to one game in which he completes some of the more challenging group content in that game which requires above average competency to complete. Additionally he has an established group of players at equal skill level that he has invested enough time and energy into networking with in order to facilitate his "casual" playstyle.

Here's casual friendly. Its 2 am on a random Saturday morning id like to log in and get some decent progress on my own terms and my own schedule. The game does offer better options for that than in say TBC but it feels diluted for some reason. Like on paper the game is more casual friendly than Wrath but it doesn't feel like it.

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Ironically the only people identifying as casuals are the people who tend to defend current systems. I don't identify as one. I have been before and been more hardcore on the spectrum. Now im just a non player. The game retained me as a hardcore player but failed when I took a step down.

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It is. You aren't. Congratulations

I’m a father a 2, work 50 hours a week, have other hobbies that take up most of my time, I play the game maybe 2-4 hours if I’m lucky a week. I think I can call myself a casual. Thanks for your immature input and opinion though.